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  1. #41
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    thanks, william k.

    [post edited]

    what i'd written was angry Te. it wouldn't have been well-received.

    i'll try again later.

  2. #42
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ^ you've said it twice now, but i really don't think you do get what i'm saying. i feel like you've essentially patted me on the head, said that's nice, and told me to run along and play while you use me as an example to the class of how not to cheer up the INFP because my "tactic" was to use something superficial.

    oh well. god forbid an extravert have anything but superficiality to lend to the conversation. :rolli:
    Ah well, I don't think you quite grasp what I am saying either. I wasn't seeking to belittle your effort so much as to clarify why this mindset in an INFP is a difficult one to counter, and that the ways which may work quite well with others don't work as well with INFPs. It's not any fault of your own, but a complexity in the INFP temperament that causes people to hit their head against a wall. It's been the subject of threads before for the very reason that most people don't know how to deal with an INFP in a mindset like this. Use of Te, INFP's being inferior, makes all the difference between ENFPs & INFPs in this case.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #43
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Looking at it from the other angle. When I'm in my rant/vent/emo mood, this is the "special treatment" that would work the best
    - Listen to me without judging
    - Offer emotional support
    - Offer a shoulder to cry on if necessary
    - Later when the storm has blown over and I realize how silly I was, laugh like it was a shared joke instead of saying "I told you so"

    Are these truly a chore? I'd do it for a loved one or a friend in a heartbeat.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  4. #44
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    thanks, william k. that list is a good reference. and i think everyone hates "i told you so."

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Ah well, I don't think you quite grasp what I am saying either. I wasn't seeking to belittle your effort so much as to clarify why this mindset in an INFP is a difficult one to counter, and that the ways which may work quite well with others don't work as well with INFPs. It's not any fault of your own, but a complexity in the INFP temperament that causes people to hit their head against a wall. It's been the subject of threads before for the very reason that most people don't know how to deal with an INFP in a mindset like this. Use of Te, INFP's being inferior, makes all the difference between ENFPs & INFPs in this case.
    ok. i'm sorry for my misunderstanding. i realized that about the Te thing - that for me it's my language of choice when i'm upset, especially because i feel like it brings me clarity, but as an INFP's inferior it's probably going to read in a way i don't mean it to for you guys. i've seen that IRL too... it works great for countering most T types but F types usually don't respond well to it. i'm gonna try in this post to avoid that. i do see how that poster could be seen in a negative light. it just wasn't intended that way, and i was caught off guard when it upset you, orangeappled.

    it's interesting, to participate in this thread, because i think i've felt the way other people must feel when they accidentally offend me in a Fi way. confused, irritated, like the other person is self-absorbed. that hasn't really happened to me IRL before. it's illuminating to be on the other end of it.

    -

    i do want to point out the potential catch-22 that i see occurring, especially given adasta's last post. i hear that there is a potential mood encompassing rejection, misunderstanding, and/or worthlessness that is familiar to most INFPs, but adasta has shown clearly how non-compromising an INFP can be. but if someone is unwilling to bend to meet others, and is also fairly quiet in general, then how (and why) should others reach out to them? it's not really fair to expect others to be appreciative of you when they don't necessarily agree with your values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta
    People are at times jealous, and at other times infuriated, of our ability to treat those things which cause problems in others' lives - bills, money, status, etc. - with such utter disdain as to render them almost worthless.
    it's really awful when someone declares that they see the things people have worked so hard towards as worthless, when they make it clear that they think that they're better than people who value those things... the way i see it, this sounds like your perspective is too limited to see how those things could be legitimately, ethically valuable. i get angry and engage Te in this thread because i hear the self-righteousness in statements like these. if another person doesn't share your same values, then they aren't going to see you in the same positive light as you see yourself.

    and then, given william k's post, to help an INFP, i should listen to them, be non-judgmental, and offer support.

    i do understand how it can look from the Fi end. it looks like others are hurting themselves and everyone around them by putting too much value on superficial things; that the whole setup of the system misses what's really important. that others are nice enough to you when you're positive, and want you to spend time around them, and want to talk to you when they're upset, but they take off when you're upset, and think you're unreasonable. they like you because you're sweet and comforting to them, and because you are unobtrusive and don't infringe upon others, but they don't give you credit for it when they're going after their own goals. that you are trying to help the world but the world doesn't really give a shit about you, except to be its safety net when things are going wrong.

    but from the other end, it's sounding like it's okay for an INFP to judge based on their values, but i can't tell them i'm judging them back or they get more upset. and if i don't agree with their values, then the things they do that they see as being good for the world, i don't really see as being something good. so it's not like they've really done anything for me, but they feel like they have, so they shouldn't be treated negatively. plus then the INFP hasn't opened up much, but others are seen as cruel for not making an effort to get to know the INFP. i mean, i care and i want to know what you're like on a deep level, but you're the one who is pushing people away and yet occasionally emoting self-righteousness, and then you're in existential turmoil because of it.

    it makes me feel like this: .

  5. #45
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    it's really awful when someone declares that they see the things people have worked so hard towards as worthless, when they make it clear that they think that they're better than people who value those things... the way i see it, this sounds like your perspective is too limited to see how those things could be legitimately, ethically valuable. i get angry and engage Te in this thread because i hear the self-righteousness in statements like these. if another person doesn't share your same values, then they aren't going to see you in the same positive light as you see yourself.
    I think there is a problem surrounding "self-righteous":

    Calling another person "self-righteous" comes directly from one's own ego. For example, if you were to call me self-righetous (and oh so many people have!), or if I were to call someone else self-righteous, what might really be meant is:

    God, look at this guy with all his bloody beliefs and ideologies. Who does he think he is, trying to make us all feel bad? Just because he doesn't care about something, we're all meant to love what he loves? He's so stuck-up!
    When I say "I don't care" about something, it is not pejorative; I mean that is is neutral to me, whereas other things evoke more of a response. I do not think I am being truly self-righteous because I am not lauding my views over anyone, nor am I saying that they are better than another's views. What I am saying is: I care about x; I don't really concern myself with y.

    For example, if someone aspires to own a really nice car, and they work towards it and achieve it, regardless of the fact "I don't care" about it, I am still happy for them. Having a nice car isn't important to me, but that doesn't mean that I cannot/do not recognise its importance to another and understand that. There is no pejorative disavowal of what other people want. The only problem comes if they reach their goals via "unseemly" means; through exploitation, for example. If you want a nice car but that involves you being a shill of a corrupt banker to the detriment of hundreds of others, I am less accepting.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    from the other end, it's sounding like it's okay for an INFP to judge based on their values, but i can't tell them i'm judging them back or they get more upset. and if i don't agree with their values, then the things they do that they see as being good for the world, i don't really see as being something good. so it's not like they've really done anything for me, but they feel like they have, so they shouldn't be treated negatively. plus then the INFP hasn't opened up much, but others are seen as cruel for not making an effort to get to know the INFP. i mean, i care and i want to know what you're like on a deep level, but you're the one who is pushing people away and yet occasionally emoting self-righteousness, and then you're in existential turmoil because of it.

    it makes me feel like this: .
    To say it "sound[s] like it's okay" for INFPs to make value judgements implies that, conversely, it may not be okay and, what's more, suggests that there is a certain moralism about the whole thing. All of my judgements are based on values. If you do not agree with my values, then you do not agree with me. This isn't a problem for me because I'm quite "live and let live" in that regard and I have friends with whom I disagree about some things. However, if we disagree on something I consider to be fundamental, we could not be friends. This may again seem self-righteous, but it's not so much a formed opinion as a feeling - and that's what friendships are based on (at least to me). I can handle a certain degree of political dissent between people in my group of friends but if you are completely opposed to something I feel is right (note the words used there!) then it is very difficult for me to be anything more than a friendly acquaintance.

    I have frequently been called self-righteous so you are completely accurate in your estimations of INFPs! I'm just trying to give you an insider's perspective into why INFPs seem so soppy and then suddenly so gruff.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  6. #46
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    ^ Agreed, Adasta. There are basically two boundaries to my values. One separates things I care about with the things I'm ambivalent about, either because I haven't made up my mind about them yet, or I truly don't care. The things I care about is further separated into things I care about but am willing to compromise and "live and let live" with, and things that are definite "no-no"s, i.e the tripwires that turn me into a crusader

    Keeping a healthy balance among the 3 categories of values is essential for me if I'm not to be bogged down worrying about every single thing that offends me, especially those that don't offend other people.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  7. #47
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    To say it "sound[s] like it's okay" for INFPs to make value judgements implies that, conversely, it may not be okay and, what's more, suggests that there is a certain moralism about the whole thing. All of my judgements are based on values. If you do not agree with my values, then you do not agree with me. This isn't a problem for me because I'm quite "live and let live" in that regard and I have friends with whom I disagree about some things. However, if we disagree on something I consider to be fundamental, we could not be friends. This may again seem self-righteous, but it's not so much a formed opinion as a feeling - and that's what friendships are based on (at least to me). I can handle a certain degree of political dissent between people in my group of friends but if you are completely opposed to something I feel is right (note the words used there!) then it is very difficult for me to be anything more than a friendly acquaintance. [...] I have frequently been called self-righteous so you are completely accurate in your estimations of INFPs! I'm just trying to give you an insider's perspective into why INFPs seem so soppy and then suddenly so gruff.
    haha. yeah. i borrow the term self-righteous from my INTP brother, who has used it in reference to me, actually. i understand the "invisible line" of Fi values because that's present in me, too. to a lesser extent, but still there. i am self-righteous about some things - hurting people, mostly - but i do try to be open to other people. my brother just sees it because he knows a deeper me than most people. my closest friend laughs about how i'm much more judgmental than most people would ever expect. i just don't tell them, because... well, why upset them when they don't really need to know?

    but like, in this situation, it's the person who's saying they don't want a deep relationship who's creating the disjoint. so it's like the INFP = panda thing doesn't really apply here. it's that the panda doesn't want to be around you, not that you don't want to understand the panda, you know?

    maybe what i've missed here is that i thought this was a problem someone wanted solving. like, why do INFPs feel like the world is against them sometimes and what can we do about it. but if it's just about bemoaning that feeling, and not really wanting to change anything... i mean, okay, that's your choice.

    i think where the "not okay" thing comes in for me is the whole situation seems unfair to other people who might be willing to reach out to you, but you don't want to have any bond with them because they're not good enough. which, i totally get that. i certainly push some people away because i really just don't approve of them. but then it's not the panda situation. it's not The World vs INFP. it's INFP vs People They Don't Like.

    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Keeping a healthy balance among the 3 categories of values is essential for me if I'm not to be bogged down worrying about every single thing that offends me, especially those that don't offend other people.
    actually i think i know what you mean here. some of my friends have so many specific opinions about things and a lot of the time i really am pretty neutral. if i cared so much about everything i feel like i'd have a constant headache

  8. #48
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    but like, in this situation, it's the person who's saying they don't want a deep relationship who's creating the disjoint. so it's like the INFP = panda thing doesn't really apply here. it's that the panda doesn't want to be around you, not that you don't want to understand the panda, you know?

    ...

    i think where the "not okay" thing comes in for me is the whole situation seems unfair to other people who might be willing to reach out to you, but you don't want to have any bond with them because they're not good enough. which, i totally get that. i certainly push some people away because i really just don't approve of them. but then it's not the panda situation. it's not The World vs INFP. it's INFP vs People They Don't Like.
    Like I implied in my earlier post, its a bit of a push/pull situation for us, especially 4w5 INFPs. We have difficulty defining clear boundaries with regards to interaction with others, even for our ourselves. We want to be around others but certain factors drive us away. Its about us finding a healthy balance; something that's easier said than done.

    Nonetheless, its not all our fault. We are strange creatures that don't naturally fit into society; there is only so much we can be expected to do to alter ourselves for others. And we don't exactly want be difficult, we just want to be ourselves.

    maybe what i've missed here is that i thought this was a problem someone wanted solving. like, why do INFPs feel like the world is against them sometimes and what can we do about it. but if it's just about bemoaning that feeling, and not really wanting to change anything... i mean, okay, that's your choice.
    I think this is more of a discussion of the problems and causes involved.

    The thing is INFPs talking about dark and depressing stuff can look like a self-indulgent pity party to others but we're quite used to reflecting and ruminating in this manner on a regular basis. We rarely speak about this out loud to others (ie. we don't usually inflict this on others ) so an opportunity like this to talk it out is good for us. It can seem like a pointless exercise but this is how we work through things. We like to tackle the dark stuff head on and analyze it rather than turn away from it and pretend its not there. Believe me, would love to solve these things and, in all likelihood, are keenly aware of the points you have raised but there are no easy fixes for such problems.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #49
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    but like, in this situation, it's the person who's saying they don't want a deep relationship who's creating the disjoint. so it's like the INFP = panda thing doesn't really apply here. it's that the panda doesn't want to be around you, not that you don't want to understand the panda, you know?
    People, some of them being INFPs, definitely can choose to isolate themselves, and not see it as self-imposed, even though it is. It reminds me quite a bit of the current "INFx and loneliness" thread. Being "different" does not mean exile. It's like the panda built its own cage or something; in defense of the panda, it felt a need to protect itself. The INFP in this mindset sees the external as a threat to his values or identity (esp. an e4) in some way, and basically gives up fighting. Instead, he goes on the defense, building a wall and then complaining that he's all alone. Of course, the threat is not always legitimate, or it does not have to be a threat if dealt with productively. Getting perspective is important to breaking down the wall. This is all so Fi-Si loopy, with a dash of paranoid Ne. There is no easy solution, or it has to come from within.

    I agree with Southern Kross though....it's not all paranoia. Often, a legitimate experience sets it in motion. The INFP just has to see not every situation will play out the same way in the future. There is also a tendency to explore the dark side of things, as it aids in value development; you need to know what is bad to deem it so. That does not mean direct experience, but exploration through thoughts & imagination. I doubt all of this is foreign to you, being an FP

    maybe what i've missed here is that i thought this was a problem someone wanted solving. like, why do INFPs feel like the world is against them sometimes and what can we do about it. but if it's just about bemoaning that feeling, and not really wanting to change anything... i mean, okay, that's your choice.
    INFPs on the whole do not feel this way; some do, sometimes. I think some of us can relate to the OP, as we've been down like that, but it's not necessarily our normal state of mind, nor is it a healthy one. I don't think you can do anything about it; the ENFP champion of the underdog is usually well-intentioned, but sometimes it's wasted when the underdog is not persecuted so much as willingly a loner. In which case, it's just plain not your problem. I know it's hard not to care, but it can be a waste of your energy with these people. I'm sure you sometimes pick up when someone is on the verge of change though; I think then, you can say something, but you have to give it time to sink in. And with an INFP, you have to be delicate and sensitive to them, because you're walking on value mine-bomb ground.

    I notice I really perk up to the ENFJ approach, as it's "inspirational". It's like, "I see what you could be." INFPs just DIE over that, in a good way. It's like the ENFJ allows them to have their Ni shift in perspective for a moment, and that's exactly what the INFP needs to pull out of the Fi-Si loop.

    i think where the "not okay" thing comes in for me is the whole situation seems unfair to other people who might be willing to reach out to you, but you don't want to have any bond with them because they're not good enough. which, i totally get that. i certainly push some people away because i really just don't approve of them. but then it's not the panda situation. it's not The World vs INFP. it's INFP vs People They Don't Like.
    There can very much be an elitist or self-righteous aspect to it, yes. Once again, it's the INFP's problem. It's also indicative of a narrow ego, an ego that feels threatened easily. Back to the panda, the INFP does not want to give up the unique identity, or the safety of the panda cage (e4 or 9, respectively), because it's maintaining their identity. Once the INFP realizes, hey, I'm not simply a panda, I can be many things, then they feel less threatened by externalities and will let more people in (the ego broadens, to encompass more). I know I've realized at times in my life that I was clinging to what I saw as factors in my identity & that these were quite frivolous. I didn't need these things to define me, or I could be more than them, and when I realized that, I was more open to others, as they did not threaten these aspects anymore. Basically, the INFP realizes that being himself & connecting to others are not mutually exclusive.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I used to have this feeling of being a "last resort" friend.
    .... somewhat smart & independent & creative. I realized it was not so much that people did not like me, than that they were intimidated by me or thought I was disinterested, because there's that aloof aspect to me too. ... I think the INFP demeanor only suits most people in a one-on-one situation, namely, a "therapy session".
    amen. i feel like people get wrapped up in their dumb human games and we're too real for that. ever read the book The Giver? that's how i picture infp's. I also think of E.T. On therapy: people I'm reasonably close to always open up to me and talk about life, about their problems, what they wanna do etc etc. We put people at ease and make them feel understood. Everyone else is trying to assert their thoughts and opinions all the time. We are the ones that will take the time to understand someone.

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