[INFJ] Are INFJs just presumptuous...?

[SilkRoad]

Does anyone react this way to being told a friend doesn't want to hear their problems anymore? My guess is he was highly embarrassed as a first reaction that he's been talking about stuff to a friend and the friend has been wishing he wouldn't the whole time. He had to save face. I mean, I can definitely identify with Silk Road, but it seems weird to expect him to be immediately contrite.

Yeah, I hear you. I have had to take that into account and try to see it from his perspective. On the other hand, I put forth a big effort to say things like "I'm not trying to say you've been wasting my time by telling me about this stuff, I don't feel that way at all...I just have to step back now for the sake of trying to still be friends with you. You telling me about your confusion isn't helping you solve it, and it's not doing me any good." I don't know if he took that on board.

I do not know about the specific situation, but I have found it hard when a friend comes to me about the same situation for years and won't do anything to actually address the problem. I feel distressed when my friends and loved ones are distressed, so I can understand if they don't really want to change the way they are doing things, but that doesn't mean I'm okay with being repeatedly distressed by something that doesn't distress them enough to do something about, if that makes sense.

Then if that same person, when I am having a problem, can't be bothered to listen to me, I definitely feel very hurt. I need to feel like the relationship is reciprocal to some degree and I need to feel appreciated if it can't be. Wish I didn't, but that is definitely an Achilles heel for me.

^Yeah...it's about this, to a large extent. And I'm not just being bitter/nasty when I say that this person talked to me at length about how confused they were, and I always tried to be sympathetic, offer gentle advice, etc etc...but when I tried to talk to them about my issues, they usually offered a quick pat answer (and then went back to their own stuff) or were dismissive.

 

[SilkRoad]

Awww, I see what you are saying. You are right, I can't judge SilkRoad's ex-friend's reaction. All I can say is that its an example of how painful it can be when the true nature of a relationship is revealed, in spite of what we desire it to be. Obviously that is working both ways here. So maybe everyone is presumptuous in his or her way. Personally, as an INFJ, I wish to see all the possible futures, know all the contingencies. But of course its not possible to do that - and its a kind of presumption to even try. The relationship is fragile, because the people in it each have their own fragility. Therefore there is no perfect plan to figure out. You never know how things will turn out.
Makes you appreciate how special true friendships are

All of what you say here is so true. I think I knew that on some level, however kindly I tried to be about it, what I was going to say to him was going to be at least somewhat hurtful. But I still felt like I had to do it.

Honestly, this is someone who has hurt me many times in many ways...possibly because I left myself vulnerable to it...but still. And this time I had to hurt him - as much as I tried to be kind, diplomatic, reassure him of my friendship etc etc. I say "I had to", I really feel like I did. I didn't see any other option. Being involved in the situation was totally upsetting me. And I had reached the conclusion that my years of listening to him go on about how confused he was (and knowing this person, the confusion is largely born of selfishness and an inability to look beyond his own needs and wants) hadn't done him a blind bit of good. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but at the age of 30 he seems to be every bit as confused as he was at the age of 26, if not more so.

So...the upshot might just be that some people are bad for each other, in any kind of relationship... (whether friendship or "relationship".) Sad but true...?

Or...maybe I am just being "presumptuous" by saying things like "I had to hurt him"!!

 

[ilovelurking]

I feel that in your part you did the right thing especially when you had mentioned this: "at the age of 30 he seems to be every bit as confused as he was at the age of 26, if not more so."

Nah, you're not being presumptuous. Afterall, the truth hurts, right? I mean, you have to protect yourself, too.

 

[Lily flower]

You want him to leave you alone and told him all the things you think are wrong with him, and yet you want him to still like you and be your "friend"?

Honestly, it doesn't work that way. Either you are there for people and they are your friends, or you do not want to be there for people and they are not your friends.

It's perfectly fine to cut someone out of your life that is causing you problems and you can have some good boundaries with people who are your friends, but don't tell someone everything you don't like about them and expect them to still like you.

 

[1487610420]

I do not know about the specific situation, but I have found it hard when a friend comes to me about the same situation for years and won't do anything to actually address the problem. I feel distressed when my friends and loved ones are distressed, so I can understand if they don't really want to change the way they are doing things, but that doesn't mean I'm okay with being repeatedly distressed by something that doesn't distress them enough to do something about, if that makes sense.

Then if that same person, when I am having a problem, can't be bothered to listen to me, I definitely feel very hurt. I need to feel like the relationship is reciprocal to some degree and I need to feel appreciated if it can't be. Wish I didn't, but that is definitely an Achilles heel for me.

I've read the same POV from other people, but to me, the message sent didn't resonate with such POV. Perhaps there wasn't enough information about weither or not the other person is too passive about resolving things, but it translated more into "I just can't stand anymore of this, I need to avoid it", and justification was short.

 

[SilkRoad]

I've read the same POV from other people, but to me, the message sent didn't resonate with such POV. Perhaps there wasn't enough information about weither or not the other person is too passive about resolving things, but it translated more into "I just can't stand anymore of this, I need to avoid it", and justification was short.

Just so you know, the whole message I sent wasn't included in what Vasilisa posted above or what I originally posted.

It is a complicated situation which I don't want to get into in a high level of detail but it had to do with the person (over the course of a few years) repeatedly telling me how much he disliked a certain type of social scene we were both aware of and a certain type of mutual acquaintance - but in fact, spending most of his time with that social scene and those type of people. He had told me repeatedly in detail how much he disliked this scene and was going to do everything to avoid going back into it.

The last straw that broke the camel's back for me, you could say, was when he reversed a bunch of decisions he'd taken and went straight back to that scene, without offering any real reasons for it. Or, the only reasons he offered were highly negative. Then when I got visibly frustrated about it, he pretty much said he didn't understand why I couldn't just be supportive, why I was taking it "personally", and why I was causing "drama". There was a total lack of understanding over how I might feel personally involved after he'd involved me for years.

In the original message I did enumerate (as gently as possible - but I still did it) how he had repeatedly told me how much he disliked a certain type of person, and even specific people, and how he felt he'd changed and wanted to avoid that way of life, etc etc etc and that hence I could not remotely understand why he'd reversed all his decisions and everything he'd been telling me and had decided to go back to it.

He does have a well established pattern of saying one thing and doing another, and especially in this area. I challenged him about this years ago and he said (verbatim) "well, I guess I'm kind of two-faced". Given that he'll be terribly charming with some of his "friends" in public, and then would tell me how much he disliked and disrespected them, it also made me wonder if he was saying similar things about me.

 

[SilkRoad]

You want him to leave you alone and told him all the things you think are wrong with him, and yet you want him to still like you and be your "friend"?

Honestly, it doesn't work that way. Either you are there for people and they are your friends, or you do not want to be there for people and they are not your friends.

It's perfectly fine to cut someone out of your life that is causing you problems and you can have some good boundaries with people who are your friends, but don't tell someone everything you don't like about them and expect them to still like you.

Well, one vote for presumptuousness, I guess.

Maybe it is kind of like dumping a boyfriend/girlfriend, telling them all the reasons the relationship can't continue, and then saying you still want to be friends.

I am also contemplating the possibility that I might be co-dependent... Even if I can't stand what a person is doing to me, I have a hard time with the idea that they might end up disliking me.

 

[cafe]

I've read the same POV from other people, but to me, the message sent didn't resonate with such POV. Perhaps there wasn't enough information about weither or not the other person is too passive about resolving things, but it translated more into "I just can't stand anymore of this, I need to avoid it", and justification was short.

I was offering it as a possibility based on personal experiences that appear to not be uncommon kinds of experiences among others of my type and also some reading between the lines.

 

[nozflubber]

so wait, is this about INFJs being _____, or that strange guy who seems creepy esfj???


Yeah, INFJs are presumptuous - they seem to J-scape (escaping or cutting off of possibilities) more than most Js. however, they have a pretty good talent of knowing when their own attitudes aren't to be taken seriously

 

[Salomé]

Presumptuous? Yes, quite often. Also cold and clinical in a way that makes even me shudder.

 

[SilkRoad]

Yeah, INFJs are presumptuous - they seem to J-scape (escaping or cutting off of possibilities) more than most Js. however, they have a pretty good talent of knowing when their own attitudes aren't to be taken seriously

That's interesting, but can you elaborate? How is the escaping or cutting off possibilities (you mean like the infamous doorslam?) presumptuous? Do you mean that it doesn't take the other person's point of view into account sufficiently?

 

[nozflubber]

naw, its like neural pruning. seriously. at some point, you just have to fragment off/sever out certain possibilities and contingencies.... finite information processing theory here.

INFJs do that to an extreme, so they can devote 100% of their brainpower to their like top 5 family/friends/loved ones thats what i mean, its not POV related.

but it has its drawbacks too that make them seem almost un-NF at times. the one INFJ i got to know very well confessed to me she wouldn't ever be with a latino man, for example. Nothing against them generally... just, wasnt interested in one romantically or w/e. That kind of presumption, the more uglier ones.

 

[SilkRoad]

but it has its drawbacks too that make them seem almost un-NF at times.

As in cold and clinical, like Morgan le Fay just said? Yeah, I could see that.

I think I see that in myself mainly when I've been pushed to a high level of frustration and exhaustion. I've been too lenient with someone, for instance, and they have taken the proverbial mile when I've given an inch, and then I suddenly (or so it seems) become extremely rigid and even harsh.

But even with general attitudes, such as your example above, I can kind of see it. We can be unexpectedly very narrow-minded on certain things, or at least so it might seem to an observer. I think generally I'm very open-minded and even open to being swayed (perhaps by the most eloquently written argument!) on many subjects. Then there are a few where I barely even want to hear an alternate viewpoint...I must admit...

Maybe it's J "cutting off possibilities" to avoid being overwhelmed...

 

[nozflubber]

"Maybe it's J "cutting off possibilities" to avoid being overwhelmed..."

yar. Like i said, just think of it as INFJ Neural Pruning

 

[Fidelia]

Neural pruning. I like that.

Yeah, I think I do that sometimes. It's usually not without some extensively thought out reasoning behind it, but it is a little rigid I know. I don't know if it's so that I can concentrate my attention of a fewer amount of people. It's that I prefer preventative rather than reactive measures. Occasionally that means looking at probabilities of a situation reoccurring. If it is using up undue amounts of my energies with very little return, then I will usually make a decision about it. It is true that there is a small chance that it wouldn't go that way or that someone within a certain group wouldn't turn out to be bad, but the odds are against me enough that I think there are other situations or populations that I could tap into instead which are likely to yield a higher success rate.

For example, I have been close to several people with addictions. I see that there are reasons why they became addicted. I like them as people. I recognize that some overcome theirs. I can see that they (like everyone else) need caring people in their lives who will love them through thick and thin. However, my interactions with them have advised me that if I am looking for a close friend or significant other, there are many other populations I could look into instead where the chances of us having a healthy relationship would be much higher. Does it mean I couldn't ever have a healthy relationship with someone who has had addictions in the past? No, but it's too great of a risk for me to want to take in that capacity. Sometimes it isn't even a matter of a value judgement on something or someone. It just is recognizing "This isn't for me" or "This is for me". I hate the trial and error method as life is very short and sometimes choosing one course of action closes the door to going back and taking another later on.

 

[SilkRoad]

I hate the trial and error method as life is very short and sometimes choosing one course of action closes the door to going back and taking another later on.

I really need to get better at seeing when a relationship of one sort or another is heading in an unhealthy direction. And either ending (or severely restricting) it at a much earlier stage, when there is much less of an investment, or delineating things more clearly at an earlier stage in terms of what I can and can't deal with...etc. It would just save some pain for myself and others.

Not that I've made huge mistakes of that sort a lot of times, I don't think. But just a few mistakes like that are enough for plenty of heartache and unwanted stress.

 

[Fidelia]

I agree. I think as INFJs get older we tend to be better able to draw those boundaries before we get to a point where we really have to restrict access after the fact or get so invested in something that isn't positive. A lot of that seems to be about experience and recognizing certain symptoms for what they are.

 

[the state i am in]

well it's obvious that our awareness is better constructed to judge what others do/need than what we ourselves need/must do. we can be rather centerless when having to make our own decisions and we need to have some training wheels from our ntp brethren to talk some sense into us and help us more effectively tell our story to ourselves. reasons are either too easy or too hard to come by, and putting them in order just feels fucking impossible.

incorporating fidelia's suggestion about keeping in mind likelihood, probability, etc, i think is key in recognizing how to construct a healthy system in which an infj can thrive. without some scaffolding and some guidelines, we just don't know where to start, and we float around the outside of the social situation rather than finding the center (for us!) and giving due credit to it, allowing it to be its own form of truth rather than demanding it, from scratch, to justify itself over and above all other reasons/possibilities/competing values/ethical considerations.

 

[Random Ness]

You tried to get closer to him, but you don't get along with him when you're close, so you're backing off. That's the right thing to do. If he wants to continue being friends with you, that's up to his comfort level. Chances are, you'll be awkward around each other for a long while. If he is truly your friend, though, he'll understand that you are not comfortable with being super close and back off, too. If he isn't, he won't try to understand and won't want to be your friend anymore.

 

[SilkRoad]

You tried to get closer to him, but you don't get along with him when you're close, so you're backing off. That's the right thing to do. If he wants to continue being friends with you, that's up to his comfort level. Chances are, you'll be awkward around each other for a long while. If he is truly your friend, though, he'll understand that you are not comfortable with being super close and back off, too. If he isn't, he won't try to understand and won't want to be your friend anymore.

Yeah... It's always been an extremely push-pull friendship, which is not healthy. It was partly my fault because I had feelings for him and never really dealt with it and we never really got it out in the open. He'd sort of give me mixed messages and get very intense and almost relationship-y with me sometimes, (telling me I was the most important person to him in this city, etc etc) then pull so far back that he was barely polite with me next time he saw me (or polite in an uncomfortable way). And I was probably a bit push-pull too because I was a bit jealous, or else worried about seeming clingy. All rather unhealthy. I think we're unlikely to have any contact at all for some time. My guess is that if we do re-establish any it will be on a superficial/acquaintance level. And that's probably all I should hope for at this point...honestly not even sure if I should hope for that!