[INFJ] Are INFJs just presumptuous...?

[SilkRoad]

I’ve posted a couple of threads about this particular situation in the last couple of months. It’s a long story but I told a friend (a guy who I also had feelings for for a long time) that I could no longer deal with his issues, effectively – the way he was constantly saying one thing and doing another (and I mean constantly, over the four years I’ve known him). I told him I still wanted to maintain the friendship and even offered to in some specific ways but that it was best for him to speak with others if he needed to about his confusion and decisions he needed to make, because speaking to me didn’t seem to be helping him, and it certainly wasn’t doing me any good.

I didn’t say “I can’t deal with your issues”, by the way. I tried my very best to be kind and diplomatic. I asked him to forgive me if I was misunderstanding him or being condescending. I did enumerate the ways that he has said one thing and done another, but tried not to do it in an accusatory way. Just mainly so he could understand what I was upset about. And I offered to maintain the friendship. His response sounded slightly apologetic (“I have a lot to work on, I haven’t been good with personal relationships”) but also petulant (“I thought in an open friendship it was about sharing thoughts and feelings…I guess not.”) Although I wrote back to him and said I still wanted to be his friend, I have not heard from him again.

I thought I was moving past the whole thing but I noticed something stupid the other day, he’d untagged a photo of just him and me on FB. (We are still friends on FB but there has been no contact - it's close to two months now.) And not because it was a bad photo of him, I don’t think (it definitely wasn’t.) It upset me, stupid I know, but it did, and kind of brought me back to the sad feelings I had about the whole thing.

I also wondering…as an INFJ…am I just being presumptuous when I do something like this? Is it just some sad impulse to lecture people? Is it a really bizarre thing to contact someone and say “I still want to be friends with you, but for x y and z reasons I don’t want to talk about your personal issues and confusion any more?” Would that seems really weird and nonsensical to a lot of people? (I think he’s an ESFP. Definitely ESxx).

I don’t know. I went to a social occasion the other week where there were many of our mutual friends. He wasn’t there, which I was somewhat grateful for. I think it will be awkward at best now, unless we patch things up again – and we’ve just done that so many times and something always seems to happen again. But I got a bit paranoid. I could be totally speculating but I thought a couple of the people who he is good friends with were a bit funny with me. So maybe he had told them something. Totally speculating, but I wonder. And I wonder what his version would be… “Silkroad decided she was too good for me? She abandoned me? She’s not a loyal friend?”

Really…part of me thinks I did the only thing I could. And part of me thinks, maybe INFJs are just presumptuous assholes. And maybe I'm not a loyal friend, though I think most of my other friends would say I am.

Anyone have comments on this and perhaps specific situations?

 

[Halla74]

Anyone have comments on this and perhaps specific situations?

Any interaction you have with this asshat is a losing scenario for you.
He is likely a low grade sociopath, or at least an emotional vampire.

So what if he deleted a photo tag on Facebook, thank goodness!

If you put worth into such trivial matters, you empower them to harm you.

If you've told him that you're willing to associate with him so long as he does not go into details about his (fukt) personal life, and he's got an issue with that, then that is HIS PROBLEM.

You might need to tell this guy to piss off.
Beleaguring that is only keeping you in a state of spinning your wheels, in my opinion.

Thoughts?



-Halla

 

[Arclight]

I have kind of noticed a few people complain that that INFJs "bail out" when the going gets tough. I have also seen INFJs hang in there way longer than they should have..
So this is a tough call

 

[Moiety]

Like all other messiahs, INFJs can have a bit of presumption yes, but I think that that word presumptuous is too often associated with negative connotations.

1 - "Love is the answer"
2 - Fuck you, presumptuous bastard. Who are you to know? That is YOUR opinion. Who are you to give me advice when not asked? etc
1 -

 

[Trentham]

Interesting question since I've had a number of INFJ friends over the years. I wouldn't say that INFJs are particularly presumptuous, but they do seem to be very frank and up front about anything that bothers them on an interpersonal level, diplomacy be damned. It can be a bit jarring to those who aren't as forward in the way they deal with others.

That said - you did nothing wrong in dealing with this guy in an honest manner. It sounds like he's got a good bit of growing up to do.

 

[SilkRoad]

Any interaction you have with this asshat is a losing scenario for you.
He is likely a low grade sociopath, or at least an emotional vampire.

So what if he deleted a photo tag on Facebook, thank goodness!

If you put worth into such trivial matters, you empower them to harm you.

If you've told him that you're willing to associate with him so long as he does not go into details about his (fukt) personal life, and he's got an issue with that, then that is HIS PROBLEM.

You might need to tell this guy to piss off.
Beleaguring that is only keeping you in a state of spinning your wheels, in my opinion.

Thoughts?



-Halla

Nah...you're right. Totally right. It really bugs me that something like that sets me off balance when I thought I was pretty much ok with the situation...and yeah, I've wasted way too much emotional energy on this person.

I guess it made me wonder though if it was weird of me to say "we can still be friends, but I have to put these conditions on it"...etc etc. It seems to be relatively normal for INFJs to do this. I just wonder if it makes us look psycho.

 

[SilkRoad]

I have kind of noticed a few people complain that that INFJs "bail out" when the going gets tough. I have also seen INFJs hang in there way longer than they should have..
So this is a tough call

I think when we bail, we do it big time. LIke, we make an announcement. But by then we have probably hung in there too long already so things get a bit dramatic...

dammit, I am not going to feel bad about this. I did my best...and probably shouldn't even have bothered.

 

[Tiltyred]

I think it puts more structure on the friendship than most people are willing to maintain and still call it a friendship. But I understand where you're coming from.

 

[cafe]

I would tell you to let it go, but that would make me such a hypocrite!

 

[SilkRoad]

I think it puts more structure on the friendship than most people are willing to maintain and still call it a friendship. But I understand where you're coming from.

I admit that it might well be the case that if you feel the need to put those kind of strictures on it, it has become a friendship no longer worth maintaining for anyone...

 

[Tallulah]

When it reaches that point, I usually end up distancing myself from the person. I think you're probably handling it the more mature way, but then you get a lot of fallout. :-D

 

[Trentham]

When it reaches that point, I usually end up distancing myself from the person.

Yup.

 

[Vasilisa]

SilkRoad, I remember the exchange, and I recall it struck me as narcissistic on his part because he didn't acknowledge any of the feelings you confessed to him with a heavy heart. But, anyway, not to replay that. This is a bit random, but have you ever encountered people who only ever offer any kind of conciliatory or compromising attitude as a response to anger? I'm not saying that your friend is that way, just that it is an amazing phenomenon I have noticed in a few people. It's hard for me to relate to that way of being, but it takes all types, I suppose. Please don't interpret this as me suggesting you should cop an angry attitude with him. The situation just reminded me of that phenomenon that I have observed. Anyway, I'll let others answer the question about if INFJs are presumptuous.

 

[SilkRoad]

SilkRoad, I remember the exchange, and I recall it struck me as narcissistic on his part because he didn't acknowledge any of the feelings you confessed to him with a heavy heart. But, anyway, not to replay that. This is a bit random, but have you ever encountered people who only ever offer any kind of conciliatory or compromising attitude as a response to anger? I'm not saying that your friend is that way, just that it is an amazing phenomenon I have noticed in a few people. It's hard for me to relate to that way of being, but it takes all types, I suppose. Please don't interpret this as me suggesting you should cop an angry attitude with him. The situation just reminded me of that phenomenon that I have observed. Anyway, I'll let others answer the question about if INFJs are presumptuous.

Hmm...I wonder if I am a bit like that myself. I do think my first reaction to the anger of others is to try and be conciliatory. (I wouldn't say this guy is like that. He has reacted in an angry and immature way to me before. This time it was more just petulant. The common thread is major immaturity, however.)

My problem in that regard is, I think I pride myself on my diplomatic skills a bit too much. I tend to think that I'm pretty good at calming people down or at not rousing their ire, basically. The trouble is...if people get angry with/around me and stay angry, despite my best diplomatic efforts, I tend to conclude that a) I'm a bit of a failure because I couldn't calm them down, and b) they must be a horrible human being. And I'm sure that in most cases neither of those conclusions are very good at all.

Dunno if that answers your particular question...

 

[Tallulah]

SilkRoad, I remember the exchange, and I recall it struck me as narcissistic on his part because he didn't acknowledge any of the feelings you confessed to him with a heavy heart. But, anyway, not to replay that. This is a bit random, but have you ever encountered people who only ever offer any kind of conciliatory or compromising attitude as a response to anger? I'm not saying that your friend is that way, just that it is an amazing phenomenon I have noticed in a few people. It's hard for me to relate to that way of being, but it takes all types, I suppose. Please don't interpret this as me suggesting you should cop an angry attitude with him. The situation just reminded me of that phenomenon that I have observed. Anyway, I'll let others answer the question about if INFJs are presumptuous.

Does anyone react this way to being told a friend doesn't want to hear their problems anymore? My guess is he was highly embarrassed as a first reaction that he's been talking about stuff to a friend and the friend has been wishing he wouldn't the whole time. He had to save face. I mean, I can definitely identify with Silk Road, but it seems weird to expect him to be immediately contrite.

 

[Vasilisa]

Well, in view of my particular situation with the SP friend, I wrote him an email today which included the below. Any comments? Of course it remains to be seen how he reacts.

"Forgive me if any of this sounds condescending or accusatory or if I have misunderstood you. I know that we’re two very different people and we probably get each other wrong quite a lot. It’s just, I can’t help any more by listening to you talk about these things, not at this point in your life anyway. I get emotionally involved when people tell me about their problems and frustrations. It’s very hard for me to detach and I can end up exhausted and resentful if it seems one-sided. I also get upset when people speak and behave inconsistently. You seem really confused about a lot of things and I wish I could help. But talking to me about the decisions you’re trying to make doesn’t seem to have helped you make any decisions, and it’s just upsetting me and frustrating me at this point.

I guess what I’m saying is, I still want to be there for you, and if I can help you with other things, or if you want to do something fun together, I would love that. If you make some decisions and you’re happy with how they work out I would like to hear about that too. But if you need to talk to someone about feeling confused or not knowing what to decide, it’s better if you talk with other friends who can detach more, or whatever. I think that will be more helpful anyway and it won’t create this tension between us. I am not trying to say that you’ve wasted my time by talking to me or anything like that. I don’t feel like that at all. I just feel like I have to step back for the sake of still having a good relationship with you."

My friend just wrote back to me and said this:

"Well I really dont want to make it awkward or anything, but also dont want to put extra issues on your shoulder. I know i have things I need to work at...

I guess in a open friendship I thought it was about expressing ones thoughts and feelings, i guess not and I have not been the best with personal relationships.

So I guess we can call it here and see each other when we see each other..."

I feel sad I don't think he really understood and I think I have hurt his feelings or he feels like I have abandoned him. It's the second part that makes me think that. I don't know if I will write back or what I could say. I might see him socially this weekend with some other people, but it will probably be awkward.

It's so hard. I think this is someone who I am always guaranteed to have misunderstandings with.

Does anyone react this way to being told a friend doesn't want to hear their problems anymore? My guess is he was highly embarrassed as a first reaction that he's been talking about stuff to a friend and the friend has been wishing he wouldn't the whole time. He had to save face. I mean, I can definitely identify with Silk Road, but it seems weird to expect him to be immediately contrite.

Thats just the way his response read to me, perhaps it is a face saving defense

 

[Arclight]

Thats just the way his response read to me, perhaps it is a face saving defense

I see a very hurt person who is trying so hard to save his dignity not his face.
Because I don't quite think they are the same thing.

I see a guy saying , wow I feel like an idiot for opening up, after all I thought that's what friends do.

And this is not to blame Silkroad in anyway.. well for one, she is all class and she is concerned .

But XNFJs have this way of making people feel special.. and then making them feel not special. I still haven't quite figured it out.. but I have been on both sides of it. Its confusing and hurtful whichever side you are standing on.

And here is man who just had the wind knocked out of him..

 

[cafe]

I do not know about the specific situation, but I have found it hard when a friend comes to me about the same situation for years and won't do anything to actually address the problem. I feel distressed when my friends and loved ones are distressed, so I can understand if they don't really want to change the way they are doing things, but that doesn't mean I'm okay with being repeatedly distressed by something that doesn't distress them enough to do something about, if that makes sense.

Then if that same person, when I am having a problem, can't be bothered to listen to me, I definitely feel very hurt. I need to feel like the relationship is reciprocal to some degree and I need to feel appreciated if it can't be. Wish I didn't, but that is definitely an Achilles heel for me.

 

[Tallulah]

I see a very hurt person who is trying so hard to save his dignity not his face.
Because I don't quite think they are the same thing.

I see a guy saying , wow I feel like an idiot for opening up, after all I thought that's what friends do.

And this is not to blame Silkroad in anyway.. well for one, she is all class and she is concerned .

But XNFJs have this way of making people feel special.. and then making them feel not special. I still haven't quite figured it out.. but I have been on both sides of it. Its confusing and hurtful whichever side you are standing on.

And here is man who just had the wind knocked out of him..

Well, that's what I meant by saving face, but yeah. All this.

 

[Vasilisa]

I see a very hurt person who is trying so hard to save his dignity not his face.
Because I don't quite think they are the same thing.

I see a guy saying , wow I feel like an idiot for opening up, after all I thought that's what friends do.

And this is not to blame Silkroad in anyway.. well for one, she is all class and she is concerned .

But XNFJs have this way of making people feel special.. and then making them feel not special. I still haven't quite figured it out.. but I have been on both sides of it. Its confusing and hurtful whichever side you are standing on.

And here is man who just had the wind knocked out of him..

Awww, I see what you are saying. You are right, I can't judge SilkRoad's ex-friend's reaction. All I can say is that its an example of how painful it can be when the true nature of a relationship is revealed, in spite of what we desire it to be. Obviously that is working both ways here. So maybe everyone is presumptuous in his or her way. Personally, as an INFJ, I wish to see all the possible futures, know all the contingencies. But of course its not possible to do that - and its a kind of presumption to even try. The relationship is fragile, because the people in it each have their own fragility. Therefore there is no perfect plan to figure out. You never know how things will turn out.
Makes you appreciate how special true friendships are