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  1. #41
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    direct question will lead to direct answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    ENFP: Let's look at all the options!!!!!! What makes us feel good??? What gives us the optimal benefit with the least cost and the BEST time????

    INTP: Okay, ***mull, mull, mull, grind, grind, grind, mull, mull, mull, compute, compute, compute, twist, twist, twist, mull, mull, mull, analyze, analyze, analyze, input, input, input, options, options, options, analyze, analyze, analyze, experience, experience, experience, ideas, ideas, ideas, analyze, analyze, analyze ***PING***

    And the answer is: 42

    .....

    INTP: 42.

    ***two hours later***

    ENFP: OMG!!!!!! OMFG!!!!!!!! 42 IS LIKE THE AWESOMEST, MOST FANTASTIC THING EVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!! ***hugs***

    INTP: I told you. 42.
    even tho this kind of what do you want to do kind of questions might seem direct to some people, they arent that clear for intp usually. thats because at least personally if someone who i care about wants to do something with me and asks about my opinion, my opinion is that i want to do something that we can both enjoy(Fe?), so you wont get a direct answer like with the former question. now that you place some of your opinions its easier for me to pick up one of them and tell what i would prefer, because clearly you will give opinions what are fine with you. this kind of approach will lead to much better results if you dont only want a direct answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    On the other hand, on a more positive note, I think mutual respect can lead to an INTP/ENFP powerhouse:

    ENFP: What do you want to do? How about 12, or 3, or....?

    INTP: I considered 42.

    ENFP: Hey, YEAH! 42 could be great because of X.

    INTP: Yes, XYZ. What do you think?

    ENFP: Awesome!!! To do X we could do ABC, and to do Y we could do DEF, and to do Z we could do GHI.

    INTP: Interesting. How would you manage to do it?

    ENFP: Well, see we could go about it this or that way.

    INTP: This is better than that.

    ENFP: Because of M?

    INTP: Yes, that's right.

    ENFP: Oh, right! Good idea. Well this would indeed be better than that, and to implement this....

    INTP: Sounds good. You want to do it!?

    ENFP: Yep, let's go!!!!!!!!!
    ------------

    what comes to this explaining my reasoning, im happy to do that, but once i think that i have proven myself to you to be worthy of listening in some particular thing, i find it bit offensive if you start to question my reasoning about that particular thing. for example if someone would constantly ask me things about math(im not good at math but ill just use it as an example), (and lets pretend that you just want the answer not the reasoning because you would need to learn math) and i would have proved(in my mind) to be worthy of listening when it comes to math(always told you the correct answer even to the toughest calculations easily) and then you ask how much is 2+3, i tell its 5 and then you ask me why is it 5, its like asking me are you sure about it and asking me if im sure if 2+3 is 5 feels like you would be really underestimating me on some of my expertise, therefore i find it quite offensive. and its not about the thing actually being that simple as 2+3, but the thing that you are asking could very well be that simple to me.

    if an intp makes some effort for you, like bakes you cookies or something. it is a big deal for him, because if he really likes you he will most likely want to put alot of effort for it, and even tho they might seem like an ordinary cookies they are most likely baked by someone who doesent normally bake, and i wouldnt wonder if the intp would have searched for hours for the perfect recipe and they will be done just perfectly(like exactly the right amount time in the oven(that might not be the one in the recipe, but will be achieved by constantly watching them bake), correct amount of chocolate(or what ever) that has been really thought thru etc etc). and to achieve the perfectness in them, you have to eat them when they are still warm. so cookies(or basically making pretty much any kind of effort) baked by your intp arent just cookies! they are an expression of our love to you showed trough Fe and showing that kind of Fe is a really big deal to us and usually we are bit hesitant to do this kind of stuff(because we want it to be perfect in every way and usually wont do it if we arent sure that this isnt the perfect way, we wont do it), so if you wont appreciate it or understand that those cookies are more than just cookies it really hurts. if you dont like the cookies, feel free to express it, but remember to show appreciation to our effort of showing how much we care about you.

    if an intp gets excited about something and shows it to you, DO NOT ignore it. we often hesitate of showing that kind of stuff(at least to people that we havent done that much) to others and if you ignore it, we hesitate to show it the next time even more, if you keep ignoring it, things might get to the point where we dont see any point of even being with you because we cant share this kind of stuff to you that we dont usually show to people that easily.

    if you are enfp(or maybe esfp), you showing your Te when you are pissed off might seem more scary to us than you would believe. even if you dont mean it in that bad way(the we might perceive it) or even you arent pissed off at us, it might seem worse to us than it actually is. because if you(as an F) show Te to us in negative form, it feels like we would show Fe at you when we are angry. and since Fe is our inferior function we dont show it as easily as you show your Te, it creates an impressions that there might be more going on than there actually is.

    dunno what else to add for now
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #42
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    ]Yes, they need space but I need more. They need proof of caring which sets off my resentment, since both my words and actions already prove this. Add together both elements and insecurity/possessiveness manifests from the ex.

    But I hold myself responsible for the above two issues. If we decide to go forward again, I need to fix these areas by giving him more time and not resenting his need for proof.
    Um, mine doesn't. But every INTP is different.

    He also needs to fix his own inability to express his insecurities, cut the possessiveness, as well as expressing how I can help to satisfy his needs.
    Hmm, interesting. Mine doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

    Use a headset. If you need to dance around, get bluetooth.
    Agreed. Whether this is an element of Ne or not, love the bantering and fun.
    I do. But, you know, I don't know why he loves closed doors. If they are not closed, he closes them.

    Don't disagree although participation isn't evident in your description. Interaction appears to matter, at least from my experience. Sitting tolerant and just listening for hours on end isn't very satifying for both.
    Of course. THat's what I meant. We would both talk. I mean we Ne-doms tend to hop from one topic to the next, and I mean, let them stay within their realm of expertise and talk about it without flitting from one thing to the next ALL THE TIME. Sometimes is cool and fun, but...oh, hell, this isn't coming out right.

    A total myth about INTPs. That they don't have a sensual or sensory side. They have quite a substantial side of it, moreso than some other MBTI types.
    Yeah, that's what I mean. He has more than I do. And I think I remember Jock saying in a completely different thread that he likes it because he can show his affection better that way. (Hope I didn't remember that wrong, Jock - if I did, please correct me).

    They do show it. It's evident in subtle ways in their facial expressions, diction, subject and body language.
    I wasn't intending on saying they don't show it at all. But definitely not in such an effusive manner as we do. However, I should probably re-phrase it if I give that impression.

    This is the coochie-coo condescension. Yes, they care if they're still with you. If they didn't, they'd be gone.
    Huh? How is it? I said DON'T ask those kinds of questions.

    They're adults. Let them deal with it unless they ask for your help.
    I'm not saying TAKE their responsibilities AWAY. I'm saying delegate those that are important to both. For example, if the rent doesn't get paid on a regular basis, our asses BOTH end up on the street. If he doesn't pay for the XYZ he got, his problem.

    I don't understand this aspect since it seems to relate to ENFP/INTP dynamics.
    It's all good. I just mean my husband is MUCH better at noticing things in the environment or remembering specifics, so I have learned to respect that and trust it.

    Agreed to some degree. Every plan has flaws. Whether those flaws need to be pointed out will rely on cost/benefit. Don't just sit back and act like he's god of the rational universe. He's also human and if you can point out the flaws in his plan in a respectful way, he'll be fine with this and enjoy the information exchange.
    Right.

    He's jacking you around. Morgan's got it right. Dominance games.
    I'm not so sure I agree with that. Remember I was joking around a bit with the pseudo-example I gave. It was more humorous than realistic. However, if we talk excessively about it, "Well what about this and what about that," or return to a topic after we've discussed it for a while, that aggravates him.

    Caveat includes timing. Don't forget your own needs.
    Of course not.

    Cats when they show you their stomach aren't being submissive or open. This is when they're the most effective since four paws full of claws and a mouth full of sharp teeth are all at ready access.
    Sigh. You know what I meant. But thanks for the info. I'll check it out later.

    Pander. All within reason. INTPs are fully capable of utilizing their Fe.
    Dude, what??? Pandering means taking advantage of or catering to other people's weakness. How is understanding that they are not going to be Fe-experts doing that? It develops over time, but one has to have patience.

    While it's not their natural preference, it's there. Same as I don't expect someone else to not hold me up to reasonable expectations of a relationship, regardless of inferior Fi.
    Let's not exaggerate.

    Catering, nuh, uh. Showing him you care through actions is fine. Pretty normal between all MBTI types.
    WHAT??? I can't do nice things for my husband????

    Pandering.
    This is situational and doesn't appear to consider both sides to the equation.
    Absolutely unrealistic. How is this pandering?

    Guy thing, rather than an INTP thing.
    Okay, granted.

    Sure, spontaneity can be fun. But it can also backfire, when they're caving.
    Nothing works all the time.

    Small spontaneities appear to be better accepted since they're very sensitive to loss of autonomy or directive actions.
    Yeah, I knowwwwww.

    This is a given for T types. Consistency helps to foster trust.
    Right.

    Overall, the tone appears to be one where the woman is nurturing, tolerant, pandering and the male is dominant while pandering to the little woman's inability to formulate rational thought and ideas.
    The focus is on the INTP (my husband) in this equation from my perspective. I'm sure if I had done it the other way around - ENFP sensibilities and INTP behavior in relationships, the iNTPs would have come down on me like a HAMMER.

    Just to give a perspective, I'm not some weak woman who just panders to my husband's every will. There's a lot of give and take in the relationship. We're both intelligent, successful people, and that means two bright minds need to come together. That requires a bit of compromise on both parts. And I fail to see how both sides doing that causes issues.

    I couldn't focus on both sides in one thread though - that would have been too broad of a scope for an effective discussion.

    So while I appreciate you drawing our attention to that little issue, I hope you understand why I decided to focus in this direction.

    Thanks for your feedback...I hope I've clarified my position, and I'd like to hear your feedback about it.

  3. #43
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    direct question will lead to direct answer



    even tho this kind of what do you want to do kind of questions might seem direct to some people, they arent that clear for intp usually. thats because at least personally if someone who i care about wants to do something with me and asks about my opinion, my opinion is that i want to do something that we can both enjoy(Fe?), so you wont get a direct answer like with the former question. now that you place some of your opinions its easier for me to pick up one of them and tell what i would prefer, because clearly you will give opinions what are fine with you. this kind of approach will lead to much better results if you dont only want a direct answer.



    ------------

    what comes to this explaining my reasoning, im happy to do that, but once i think that i have proven myself to you to be worthy of listening in some particular thing, i find it bit offensive if you start to question my reasoning about that particular thing. for example if someone would constantly ask me things about math(im not good at math but ill just use it as an example), (and lets pretend that you just want the answer not the reasoning because you would need to learn math) and i would have proved(in my mind) to be worthy of listening when it comes to math(always told you the correct answer even to the toughest calculations easily) and then you ask how much is 2+3, i tell its 5 and then you ask me why is it 5, its like asking me are you sure about it and asking me if im sure if 2+3 is 5 feels like you would be really underestimating me on some of my expertise, therefore i find it quite offensive. and its not about the thing actually being that simple as 2+3, but the thing that you are asking could very well be that simple to me.

    if an intp makes some effort for you, like bakes you cookies or something. it is a big deal for him, because if he really likes you he will most likely want to put alot of effort for it, and even tho they might seem like an ordinary cookies they are most likely baked by someone who doesent normally bake, and i wouldnt wonder if the intp would have searched for hours for the perfect recipe and they will be done just perfectly(like exactly the right amount time in the oven(that might not be the one in the recipe, but will be achieved by constantly watching them bake), correct amount of chocolate(or what ever) that has been really thought thru etc etc). and to achieve the perfectness in them, you have to eat them when they are still warm. so cookies(or basically making pretty much any kind of effort) baked by your intp arent just cookies! they are an expression of our love to you showed trough Fe and showing that kind of Fe is a really big deal to us and usually we are bit hesitant to do this kind of stuff(because we want it to be perfect in every way and usually wont do it if we arent sure that this isnt the perfect way, we wont do it), so if you wont appreciate it or understand that those cookies are more than just cookies it really hurts. if you dont like the cookies, feel free to express it, but remember to show appreciation to our effort of showing how much we care about you.

    if an intp gets excited about something and shows it to you, DO NOT ignore it. we often hesitate of showing that kind of stuff(at least to people that we havent done that much) to others and if you ignore it, we hesitate to show it the next time even more, if you keep ignoring it, things might get to the point where we dont see any point of even being with you because we cant share this kind of stuff to you that we dont usually show to people that easily.

    if you are enfp(or maybe esfp), you showing your Te when you are pissed off might seem more scary to us than you would believe. even if you dont mean it in that bad way(the we might perceive it) or even you arent pissed off at us, it might seem worse to us than it actually is. because if you(as an F) show Te to us in negative form, it feels like we would show Fe at you when we are angry. and since Fe is our inferior function we dont show it as easily as you show your Te, it creates an impressions that there might be more going on than there actually is.

    dunno what else to add for now
    OMG Yes! I agree, I've seen this with him, too. Like he will go through a lot of trouble to cook something really nice for me because I work more than he does at the moment. And sometimes I didn't know because it was a surprise. So I ate a salad on the way home. And when I tell him that on the phone on the way home it's like ***BURST BALLOON***. Then I got home and saw OMG HE MADE DINNER.

    Oops, my mistake.

    So now I generally eat a little snack and see if he has something or not. And eat at home.

    One thing that pisses him off is if he has to eat alone. He likes working alone. Thinking alone. But little things like eating or going for a walk, he likes to do with me and gets very disappointed if there is not a good reason why I don't want to do that.

    Yeah, I noticed the same thing about the excitement. I love seeing my INTP get all excited about something. And he usually finds something really great for his research or a great deal for his freelancing thing. And then he gets all YAY, and it's really important to take out the time (even if you're a bit busy) and get happy with him. Or at least say, "Hold on, I'll be right there after I'm done with X."

    And yes, fights are scary. I try to avoid them whenever possible.

  4. #44
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    So now I generally eat a little snack and see if he has something or not.
    awww. but i think thats bit too much. you should talk to him about this if you already havent, im pretty sure that he can find a solution where he can make you happy and you can eat the way you want
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #45
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    awww. but i think thats bit too much. you should talk to him about this if you already havent, im pretty sure that he can find a solution where he can make you happy and you can eat the way you want
    Actually, we have recently talked about it. He'll ask me what I'd like to have. He's really thoughtful and considerate that way.

    He loves eating (I'm so jealous - he's an ecto-mesomorph, and can basically eat whatever he wants). So if it's a miss, he'll eat it.

  6. #46
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    If you really want to offend me, take it a step further and accuse me from the start of not being objective or of just "believing what I want to believe" simply because I've reached a different conclusion from you. That's a complete insult to my intellectual integrity and I typically push back hard.
    I've done this to my INTP friend, and we stopped talking for about 6 months and going, lol. I think he blacklisted me

  7. #47
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    interesting list

    my dad and brother are INTPs and a good bit of this stuff sounds familiar.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    direct question will lead to direct answer
    haha, yeah, i've learned this. vague question = vague response (while for an ENFP, vague question is awesome, because you pretty much get to talk about whatever related thing you think is important)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor
    He's jacking you around. Morgan's got it right. Dominance games.
    i think it's a distinct possibility. i see this in my brother, but not dad much. my brother thinks it's hilarious to wind me up then call me a weak woman. i used to think dad liked to wind me up too (and he thought vice versa!) but the truth is that we just communicate very differently and our respective ways used to piss each other off.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP
    if an intp makes some effort for you, like bakes you cookies or something. it is a big deal for him, because if he really likes you he will most likely want to put alot of effort for it, and even tho they might seem like an ordinary cookies they are most likely baked by someone who doesent normally bake, and i wouldnt wonder if the intp would have searched for hours for the perfect recipe and they will be done just perfectly(like exactly the right amount time in the oven(that might not be the one in the recipe, but will be achieved by constantly watching them bake), correct amount of chocolate(or what ever) that has been really thought thru etc etc). and to achieve the perfectness in them, you have to eat them when they are still warm. so cookies(or basically making pretty much any kind of effort) baked by your intp arent just cookies! they are an expression of our love to you showed trough Fe and showing that kind of Fe is a really big deal to us and usually we are bit hesitant to do this kind of stuff(because we want it to be perfect in every way and usually wont do it if we arent sure that this isnt the perfect way, we wont do it), so if you wont appreciate it or understand that those cookies are more than just cookies it really hurts. if you dont like the cookies, feel free to express it, but remember to show appreciation to our effort of showing how much we care about you.


    i didn't use to understand that what i thought was dad being overly meticulous and messing around with my stuff was his way of showing that he cared about me - things like cleaning my car inside (i'd get annoyed bc he'd take all my stuff out of my car and put it somewhere "safe" where i couldn't find it lol). now i understand and appreciate it - and hot damn if i don't love having my car cleaned and tires checked for me! it's taken so many years to understand this but it finally clicked for me one night, and suddenly a whole world of care i hadn't seen became clear. he doesn't show love so much in words as in actions, but as long as i know that, that's okay.

    if an intp gets excited about something and shows it to you, DO NOT ignore it. we often hesitate of showing that kind of stuff(at least to people that we havent done that much) to others and if you ignore it, we hesitate to show it the next time even more, if you keep ignoring it, things might get to the point where we dont see any point of even being with you because we cant share this kind of stuff to you that we dont usually show to people that easily.
    or worse, if we dis your stuff. i've done that to my dad and brother both when i thought their timing was shitty, and i feel kinda bad about it because i realize how much it meant to them. fortunately we live together so i can make up for dumb past mistakes.

    i think with this kind of pairing there's just a whole new language to learn, but once you understand enough, things make much more sense.

  8. #48
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    Um, mine doesn't. But every INTP is different.
    Yes, there are differences and commonalities between individuals. Same as there are differences and probably some commonalities between you and I, regardless of type.

    Hmm, interesting. Mine doesn't seem to have a problem with that.
    Once again, differences and commonalities between individuals creating different relationship dynamics.

    I do. But, you know, I don't know why he loves closed doors. If they are not closed, he closes them.
    Dare I suggest anal retentiveness on his part?

    Of course. THat's what I meant. We would both talk. I mean we Ne-doms tend to hop from one topic to the next, and I mean, let them stay within their realm of expertise and talk about it without flitting from one thing to the next ALL THE TIME. Sometimes is cool and fun, but...oh, hell, this isn't coming out right.
    Okay, I understand better now.

    I wasn't intending on saying they don't show it at all. But definitely not in such an effusive manner as we do. However, I should probably re-phrase it if I give that impression.
    Not too many types match the ENFP emotional projection. And yes, I'm teasing you a bit but also being serious.

    Huh? How is it? I said DON'T ask those kinds of questions.
    Something about how it was expressed, makes it seem like it's okay for these guys to withdraw at any time. There are times that are okay and others that it's not okay.

    This is part of our (the ex and I) dysfunction. One of us will withdraw and the other either pursues (him) or withdraws harder (me). For some reason we cause each other to revert to shadow.

    I'm not saying TAKE their responsibilities AWAY. I'm saying delegate those that are important to both. For example, if the rent doesn't get paid on a regular basis, our asses BOTH end up on the street. If he doesn't pay for the XYZ he got, his problem.
    I still have a problem with this since both are adults where one shouldn't have to shoulder more responsibility when it comes to pragmatic living and equal partnerships. This encompasses all types and genders.

    It's all good. I just mean my husband is MUCH better at noticing things in the environment or remembering specifics, so I have learned to respect that and trust it.
    Okay, that makes sense. Very focused on external detail and recall of detail.

    I'm not so sure I agree with that. Remember I was joking around a bit with the pseudo-example I gave. It was more humorous than realistic. However, if we talk excessively about it, "Well what about this and what about that," or return to a topic after we've discussed it for a while, that aggravates him.
    In this, we'll have to disagree. That would drive me batty not being provided the rationale when asked. The ex wouldn't even consider doing this to me if I asked. He does provide rationale, rationale, rationale, rationale, rationale and more rationale, which ends in rationale. And then more rationale and more. You get the picture, I'm sure.

    Dude, what??? Pandering means taking advantage of or catering to other people's weakness. How is understanding that they are not going to be Fe-experts doing that? It develops over time, but one has to have patience.
    I guess it depends on how much Fe is required. Perhaps this is more meaningful for an ENFP, than ENTJ.

    Let's not exaggerate.
    Not exaggerating one bit.

    WHAT??? I can't do nice things for my husband????
    The word "cater" pushed a button. More a case of motivation where doing nice things for a loved one should be a form of natural giving, rather than a chore.

    Absolutely unrealistic. How is this pandering?
    If he chooses to sit on his duff while you're covering for him, how would this not be pandering? It won't always cause him to bounce up and want to help. In some ways, it's almost manipulative by making him feel guilty. I would just leave it for him to do with no nagging. His job, his responsibility. Any fall out would be his responsibility.

    The focus is on the INTP (my husband) in this equation from my perspective. I'm sure if I had done it the other way around - ENFP sensibilities and INTP behavior in relationships, the iNTPs would have come down on me like a HAMMER.

    Just to give a perspective, I'm not some weak woman who just panders to my husband's every will. There's a lot of give and take in the relationship. We're both intelligent, successful people, and that means two bright minds need to come together. That requires a bit of compromise on both parts. And I fail to see how both sides doing that causes issues.

    I couldn't focus on both sides in one thread though - that would have been too broad of a scope for an effective discussion.

    So while I appreciate you drawing our attention to that little issue, I hope you understand why I decided to focus in this direction.

    Thanks for your feedback...I hope I've clarified my position, and I'd like to hear your feedback about it.
    Understood.

  9. #49
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    that's why I want an INTJ

    just kidding...they don't sound so bad...except for the fact that I have to be the one to remember to pay the bills? really? I already had to take care of a fucking ESFJ who might have made a good house-husband had he gotten therapy and had I wanted to be the power bitch bread winner. I want someone with Te to take care of me goddammit.

    It initially appears that I'm such a big baby, but SERIOUSLY I'm tired of having to live in my ISTJ shadow...it's kind of painful and makes people want to avoid me :ouch:.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    that's why I want an INTJ

    just kidding...they don't sound so bad...except for the fact that I have to be the one to remember to pay the bills? really? I already had to take care of a fucking ESFJ who might have made a good house-husband had he gotten therapy and had I wanted to be the power bitch bread winner. I want someone with Te to take care of me goddammit.

    It initially appears that I'm such a big baby, but SERIOUSLY I'm tired of having to live in my ISTJ shadow...it's kind of painful and makes people want to avoid me :ouch:.

    is that what it is??? the freakin' Ti in my significant others that makes ME (enfp) the goddamn caretaker / organized one in my last relationship & current relationship??? Ugh! was with an ISFP for many years & now INFJ & in both relationships i am the organized one / the detailed one / the caretaker one . . . & i'm like "what the heck, i'm enfp for godsakes . . . i thought I was supposed to be the head in the clouds airhead lazy person!!!" i feel tired of this role too, marm . . . why don't we pick people with Te for a change??? what's up with that??? maybe i'll start a thread on something of this nature because i am so tired of taking on this somewhat unnatural role which like you mentioned . . . brings out the mega-bitch in me. & i a mean MEGA!!! :steam:

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