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  1. #61
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    INFPs are play before work types because unless something is deemed important, we have no reason to act. Discipline is not a strength - motivation HAS to come from an inner ideal. Homework is failing to connect to an ideal for her. She needs help seeing why this is important, and it cannot come in forms of grades or what someone else says is "important".

    Grades are an external measure - INFPs don't value things in this way. Points, grade letters, & other external systems of determining what is good & bad can often seem so flawed to us we don't bother to meet them. They've lost all meaning.

    For instance - we all know there are overachievers who do all of their homework & study hard & get good grades despite not being especially naturally smart. So their grades are a reflection of hard work, not grasping the concepts of the teachings necessarily. I know a lot of people who got As through doing tasks, but they had a poor understanding of what things actually mean. INFPs will see the point of homework being to learn the concepts, but if they already grasp them, then why do the homework? Just for some letter label which fails to accurately determine how well someone actually has learned a subject?

    Do you see how this line of thinking can go? She may especially be devaluing homework as a way to excuse herself from it - to avoid the anxiety her perfectionist tendencies cause. Of course, now she is reaping the consequences, but the bad habit is formed. To break it, she needs to adjust her perspective on all of these things, and she probably needs some help getting perspective right now. There's no magic trick - INFP have to alter their mindset before their behavior will be affected & that can take time.

    Also, positive reinforcement always works better with us than criticism or punishment; express confidence in our ability to do something, and all of a sudden, we see ourselves in that light & we do it.
    +4 for me, speaks for itself.

    And I would also like to add boredom is huge, when I mean huge, its EPIC!
    This means we get distracted without the ability to focus on what we do because its so frigging boring and disengage in what we are learning. Not because its not, not interesting per say but because it leaves not a lot to the imagination, hardly creative and then we are disinterested in learning as effectively as we can. I mean at least for me, I know that I learn best when I'm interested, more importantly when I am emotionally connected to the subject I want to learn I go out of my way to not only learn it, I actively go deeper to the 10th degree and start learning factoids that my friends would call overdoing it.

  2. #62
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    I mean at least for me, I know that I learn best when I'm interested, more importantly when I am emotionally connected to the subject I want to learn I go out of my way to not only learn it, I actively go deeper to the 10th degree and start learning factoids that my friends would call overdoing it.
    Yeah. This schooling system is clearly not the best way for us to learn. If I come across any subject that I know I will need, I will learn it fast and thoroughly, at least to the point when it's use is still important for me.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Eckhart's Avatar
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    I agree too to OrangeAppled's post, and that of Synapse

  4. #64
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What would cause an INFP to have low self esteem?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything

    I mean, seriously. Grab the object closest to you and hold it up to an INFP, and there's a high probability that we'll feel inferior in some way :blushing:

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Some of this makes INFPs sound like they're born with low self-esteem. I don't want to accept that. Why is this an intrinsic feature of a Type?

    Just to be clear, I don't mean to come off rude by anything I say here.. I have severe bouts of it myself (I don't want to validate my pain too much.. just take my word for it). I just wonder where it's coming from for you, and what you do about it. Also, I wonder if you have concrete reasons for feeling left out, or is it some hard-to-pin-down existential void? Or maybe a little of both?

    At the risk of sounding bombastic, I've always felt something like an alchemist with my issues. Confidence that boils out from within (only to die down again later). I've always somehow managed to transmute these problems into something more.. I could reshape myself if I wanted or needed to experience something new. Enough to even become somewhat popular and leader-like for awhile, then sinking back down, then up, etc.. To put another spin on this process: I went to some acting workshops in my 20's, and within a couple of weeks, the teacher told me that I didn't really need to stay around. "You're already an actor." She wanted me to go out on my own and just audition (ironically, I didn't have enough self-esteem with the reality of that). Point being that I could draw a lot of things out of myself, if necessary. Do any of you feel this way? Or are you consistently feeling low self-esteem? I also hear that INFPs (or Fi period?) are always trying to be "authentic". Do you never lie or channel characters or role models to cope (yes, I'm serious)? Or do you insist on feeling exactly what you feel at all times? Maybe that's the difference. Because personally, a lot of my more courageous moments required that I be completely full of it to get through something.. and in the process, kind of "live it", where it wasn't fake, but a new addition to my experiences.

    Sorry for making this long. I'm not trying to talk about myself so much as wondering where the lack of self-esteem comes from, and why INFPs announce it so often. Hopefully I'm contributing to the discussion. There's a trend for people to call INFPs emo and for INFPs themselves to embrace it, and I'm just curious why it persists.

    Lastly, I said I wouldn't validate my pain, but I get the impression that someone could be tempted to say they feel more or they're deeper or this or that. I don't know how to symbolize my own sense of dejection other than saying I was sexually abused at 6; I must have gotten in a dozen fights growing too..and things stolen from me.. lots of lame crap in little ways; I also grew up as an Asian in Texas, so that's another contribution to feeling out of place I can't stress that enough.. get called a gook or chink enough and you start telling yourself that don't fit in). No ambiguous existentism in my case. It's fairly obvious that life can be rotten in concrete ways. Yet I don't want to call myself an emo. What the hell is making INFPs different than me. I thought I had it pretty bad, and here I am wishing I could understand and help.
    To put it bluntly:

    We feel things deeper than you do.

    And no, it's not a competition. That's not some kind of achievement.

    You're an Asian living in Texas who was sexually abused. The difference between you and an INFP? You're alive and functional. If you were an INFP, you'd be in a mental institution or have already committed suicide

    Feelings for us are like sitting in the front row at a movie theater, where for other people they're just watching TV in the living room. Where you guys can change the channel or get up to get some popcorn between commercial breaks, we have to sit with a massive image in our faces, where we can't even turn our heads without it dominating our vision. And if we try to get up to get popcorn or a drink or use the bathroom, we'll have missed major things in the movie that we paid money to go see. With us, it's a major deal like that, and with other types it's not such an obstruction.

    They might feel it very strongly, but there's only one other type that has Introverted Feeling as its primary function.

    And that type is ISFP, who has Extroverted Sensing as their secondary function, as opposed to our Extroverted Intuition. Their Se means that their outward expression of their feelings are in words and ways that the rest of the world can readily understand.

    With us, we can't even express ourselves sensibly. To other people, our feelings that we're trying to convey are just us talking jibberish, which supercharges our isolation from the rest of the world, and drives us further inward by torturing us with the inability to actually empathize with anyone else (other than INFPs, who we rarely find in the real world).

    Our situation of being twice removed from the world by our Primary and Secondary functions is unlike any other type in the whole MBTI system. And when you're growing up being told that you're stupid or that you make no sense and that you're wrong, so you should just shut up... yeah.

    Living becomes a tragedy in and of itself. The rest of life's shit is just kicking us while we're down :blushing:
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    ^ wtf. living for an infp is a tragedy? i don't think so. i don't know where the emo comes from. i know where the low self-esteem comes from and perhaps that's a natural result of dom Fi, aux Ne and inferior Te but who the hell said infps don't know how to learn and develop themselves with confidence.

    what the shit. life is tough for a lot of people. being an infp is not tragic. just because we feel things deeply and we empathize deeply and we personalize too much doesn't mean we should automatically settle for low self esteem and stay there. it's about constantly learning, to develop our strong points, to pinpoint our weak ones.

    i have major issues myself including low self esteem at times but i haven't stopped learning and haven't stopped thriving to become a competent, confident person.

    if you don't naturally know how to express yourself to the outside world, LEARN HOW. just like the entjs learn to deal with their feelings, just as people learn to survive with the barest resources. no one arrived in the world perfect equipped with skills. it's called learning, practicing and appearing stupid sometimes like a toddler not really knowing how to walk at first, but at least you tried. i'm not saying you should change who you are, but if you're unhappy and you aren't accomplishing your goals, adjustment is not inauthentic.

    is it just me or am i reading a lot of self-pitying infp posts? i have always set goals out for myself and i go through serious bouts of questioning and depression but i have always held strongly to my values and what i want for myself. i embrace what is different in me and i feel stronger because of my ideals even as my weak points are really hard for me to grapple with to deal with the external environment. i have never stopped learning how to be a better person.

  6. #66
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    To put it bluntly:

    We feel things deeper than you do.

    And no, it's not a competition. That's not some kind of achievement.

    You're an Asian living in Texas who was sexually abused. The difference between you and an INFP? You're alive and functional. If you were an INFP, you'd be in a mental institution or have already committed suicide

    Feelings for us are like sitting in the front row at a movie theater, where for other people they're just watching TV in the living room. Where you guys can change the channel or get up to get some popcorn between commercial breaks, we have to sit with a massive image in our faces, where we can't even turn our heads without it dominating our vision. And if we try to get up to get popcorn or a drink or use the bathroom, we'll have missed major things in the movie that we paid money to go see. With us, it's a major deal like that, and with other types it's not such an obstruction.

    They might feel it very strongly, but there's only one other type that has Introverted Feeling as its primary function.

    And that type is ISFP, who has Extroverted Sensing as their secondary function, as opposed to our Extroverted Intuition. Their Se means that their outward expression of their feelings are in words and ways that the rest of the world can readily understand.

    With us, we can't even express ourselves sensibly. To other people, our feelings that we're trying to convey are just us talking jibberish, which supercharges our isolation from the rest of the world, and drives us further inward by torturing us with the inability to actually empathize with anyone else (other than INFPs, who we rarely find in the real world).

    Our situation of being twice removed from the world by our Primary and Secondary functions is unlike any other type in the whole MBTI system. And when you're growing up being told that you're stupid or that you make no sense and that you're wrong, so you should just shut up... yeah.

    Living becomes a tragedy in and of itself. The rest of life's shit is just kicking us while we're down :blushing:
    I have to disagree with this....

    First, I think INFPs are quite resilient. Idealism does that to you - it creates hope for the future. I know I am an emotionally strong person, and I find myself coping a lot better with life issues than some I observe around me. That may just be me, but I don't think I am a special case when it comes to INFPs. I think an INFP who feels this way is probably stuck in the Fi-Si loop, overly focused on reviewing negative past feelings so that they lose perspective on the external. Feelings aren't a nuisance when given vision with Ne, IMO. Then they're a powerful motivation to accomplish many things, & a force to connect with other people, not simply leaving you isolated or misunderstood.

    Second, Isabel Myers in Gifts Differing and other MBTI authors have noted that INFPs actually have a tendency to be more articulate with words than ISFPs. Intuition aids in expression, as it gives you the ability to see new ways to express, ways which are more adequate to your feeling, but still grasped by others. ISFPs may struggle more with the gap between the very real, tangible world they perceive and their abstract, yet intense feeling ideals. Hence, INFPs are given the stereotype of "poet" and ISFPs that of "artist".

    I think I can understand where you are coming from though. Fi feelings do get invalidated, as they are hard for others to grasp; and those Fi-doms who have yet to find a way to communicate their feeling in a form that others will accept as valid can have poor self-esteems because of it. You're pretty much told your perspective & feelings, and by extension you, have no worth.

    I made a post in the giant "Fe + Fi Gone Awry" thread which discussed this in more detail (if you ever want to tackle that monster). IRL, I see ISFPs struggling the most with this problem, but then I also think it causes some to develop their tert-Ni quite early.

    I have a feeling, tkae, that you're not feeling so hot right now. But be assured that having the INFP personality type is NOT a curse, and you do have strengths that others can & will appreciate. You will find a way to demonstrate them, but you need to see yourself as capable first. I think INFPs can be our own worst enemies...
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #67
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    ^ I agree.

    I also think INFPs have this kind of inner therapist that makes us rather skilled at analyzing and dealing with our problems; picking ourselves up and carrying on. Also we are used to things being hard, due to our natural sensitivity to the harsh realities of the world. It toughens us up and better prepares us for coping with harsh times. I have found this to be frequently true in my own experience and have been surprised at just how resilient I am in comparison to others.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #68
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I have a feeling, tkae, that you're not feeling so hot right now. But be assured that having the INFP personality type is NOT a curse, and you do have strengths that others can & will appreciate. You will find a way to demonstrate them, but you need to see yourself as capable first. I think INFPs can be our own worst enemies...
    It depends. My Ne is too strong for its own good, and my Si and Te are underdeveloped pretty bad. So when I was growing up, I'd have a tendency to come in from abstract places and would completely lose anyone I was talking to. So by the time I stumbled into MBTI, I was already convinced from the people around me that I was slightly crazy or just really stupid. And Si is still an extremely weak function for me. Te is getting stronger thanks to my ENTJ creative writing teacher (my Ni is hoss right now :workout, but especially when I was in Middle and High School, I got a lot of shit for my Ne that left me with a bad taste for people dismissing Ne without even giving it a chance.

    So... I just have a love/hate thing with being an INFP. I love it, because it's a great thing and I love my inner emotional ecology. But at the same time it's been a huge source of pain for me. I know it's not being an INFP that caused it, and that it was just me growing up without any NFs to guide me and help me develop (my mom is an ESFJ, my grandmother is an ESTJ, my teachers were mostly SFPs, with some STPs or SJs mixed in, and only one of my friends was an NF, and she was an INFJ).

    Thanks though, I've seen you around and always look up to you as an experienced, well-developed, and healthy INFP

    So thanks, it means a lot
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I have to disagree with this....

    First, I think INFPs are quite resilient. Idealism does that to you - it creates hope for the future. I know I am an emotionally strong person, and I find myself coping a lot better with life issues than some I observe around me. That may just be me, but I don't think I am a special case when it comes to INFPs. I think an INFP who feels this way is probably stuck in the Fi- loop, overly focused on reviewing negative past feelings so that they lose perspective on the external. Feelings aren't a nuisance when given vision with Ne, IMO. Then they're a powerful motivation to accomplish many things, & a force to connect with other people, not simply leaving you isolated or misunderstood.
    Another really good post orangeappled. I test INFP, but I'm logical and emotionally stable. I don't relate to INFP's that are commonly stuck in an emotional Fi- loop. I tend to suppress, avoid, divert negative emotions. I don't buy or sell passive aggression, though I can spot it a mile away. I feel convicted about things I say or do sometimes long after. Something that perplexes me, I care about 'people' so deeply, more than I should or seem to have comfortable control of... more than I'll ever admit to myself or others on a normal day. I press on, flowing by facts and a feeling. Mostly feelings.

    I can't explain what came over me one day I saw a car crash. This man, nobody was helping him! I was with my parents at a red light. I connected with him instantly, cried "OMGosh" as I intinctly jump out of the car to run over to him. My Dad firmly shouted "get back in the car!" That's when I snapped out of it, but I could not emotionally detach from the pain/fear I saw the man feeling at the time... I choked back tears as if it was happening to me. It would have been water works, but I didn't want my parents to see me crying, so I remained discreet... the INFP way, I dunno? ...not bring others down with our troubles? Looking back at that brings some of those feelings back like it just happened, but I'll get over it if I can just walk away from this keyboard and this post.

    Isolation, hmmm... I supress the feelings of isolation, or shame for sharing and being misunderstood. I don't hold grudges or victimize pain in an Fi-Si loopy loop sorta way; the exception, if somone is close to my heart. That's when, for a moment, I feel pain that no human should feel. Like a car crash, but not loopy. More like brief and fleeting. Fortunately, those moments are few and far between. My instincts seem to seek inner and outer peace at any cost. Peace is always within a moments reach.

  10. #70
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    The INFP growing process can feel kinda like this at times
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

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