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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    If I feel I intimidate people at times - or people are on guard about something in general, this is when I might do it. It's me telling them I'm OK. Just easing tension a little. Or if I see someone having difficulty with something, I might help, and say.. "No problem.. I used to really suck at this. You're not doing half as bad." Sometimes it isn't necessary to take some "pillar of strength" or overly-respectable approach with people, but to work with them on an equal level. I wouldn't call it shadow behavior.. it's probably me at my best
    Yeah okay I can see that, trying to be down to earth where others can feel at ease by you, that's a fair assessment of interpersonal reactions.

    I guess when you do it as an exaggeration and its taken to an extreme then its a shadow state. I tend to think we are needing to resolve our shadow state irrespective to feel good about ourselves. Still seems to be a form of controlling who we are without understanding that its more disruptive than positive in most cases anyway when it comes to the self.

  2. #32
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    My issue with praise was not downplaying someone else's compliment. I've learned to just say "thank you" gracefully and not attempt to qualify their statement. Part of this is embarrassment - I like compliments, but they also put the spotlight on you, and I hate the spotlight.
    I'm so bad at taking compliments and do the same qualifying thing too! To avoid it I have to bite my tongue and do all the "yeah, but not really..." thing in my head.
    Oh, I thought of something else : self-deprecating humor. I think sometimes this does not register with people and they think you are serious .
    People don't get INFP self-deprecating humour. All that dark cynicism and self-criticism seems to scare most people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Self-deprecating humour is from a low self esteem to harass the self into an inferior state of being. On a conscious level they think its just their kind of humour, on a subconscious level what they are saying to themselves I am unworthy so I'll belittle myself.
    It can be for some people but I don't usually do it to deflect attention to my greatest flaws like some do. My friend is really short and he makes fun of his height a great deal in this manner (which I don't like) so that it seems like its something not worth teasing him over. I usually use self-deprecating humour for faults I'm OK with and have learned to live with; these faults don't bother me so its fun to embrace and laugh at them. I don't make fun of my true insecurities because these are way too close to home for me to air publicly, let allow open myself to ridicule over.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It can be for some people but I don't usually do it to deflect attention to my greatest flaws like some do. My friend is really short and he makes fun of his height a great deal in this manner (which I don't like) so that it seems like its something not worth teasing him over. I usually use self-deprecating humour for faults I'm OK with and have learned to live with; these faults don't bother me so its fun to embrace and laugh at them. I don't make fun of my true insecurities because these are way too close to home for me to air publicly, let allow open myself to ridicule over.
    Sounds a bit defensive, like your trying to justify that its a good thing even a little bit. I disagree and tend to believe its a form of self esteem bashing. Like biting your nails or a nervous twitch, you gotta find something to bag so why not your self but its your self esteem that gets knocked about.

    What I'm saying the psychology and reasoning behind doing this is out of a need and that need is often negative in nature. Its like saying sure I'll bag my little faults and let my bigger faults lay low but hell because its so much fun to do. I'm sure its like the short person got used to being teased about it all the times so adopted it as a behaviour modality where it becomes automatic, like a practiced script to pick on the short stature rather than anything else because its noticeable.

    Its funny how you can look at some people and think how tall they are for being so short while look at others and think how short they are for being so small...

    I guess my point is that its silly and its a learned response, criticize the negatives and ignore the positive features. Like your mind learns to write out negative features about you a mile long but dismisses the positives to a few words. Its in our expression too, how comfortable we are in our shoes I guess.

    Its like another quirk of ours where we are apologetic, saying sorry after things like we did something when there is nothing to be sorry about.

  4. #34
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    - it's an INFP teenager
    The teenage years were rough for me, and based on the comments of the many INFP teens online, that is not uncommon. They were not rough because I was teased or school was hard or anything like that. The feelings of alienation reach an all-time high, and INFPs need to relate their feeling to something external or perspective on them gets distorted. This can mean a distortion of self-worth and your own abilities.

    There are a number of factors which lead to this alienation...just to name a couple:

    - Teens tend to be very conscious of fitting in & are forging their identities outside of their family in relation to other people. However, INFPs often do not care to fit in & don't tend to forge an identity in relation to a group. It's kind of a lose-lose situation - compromise or isolate yourself.

    - Teenage emotions are amplified by hormones, and INFPs may withdraw in order to process these, because processing them to find meaning is somewhat fascinating to us. We can submerge so deeply we lose perspective.

    - incredibly smart, creative, artistic, excellent writer, gifted; scores 95% or more on standardized tests; great at everything but math's not her favorite
    - perfectionist
    - has feelings of incompetence so doesn't do homework which doesn't get done which fuels more feelings of incompetence, etc.
    - it is a bit like performance anxiety combined with self esteem issues
    Possibly, her standards are so high she feels inhibited to act for fear of not meeting them. If she is generally acknowledged by others as very smart, this can add pressure to meet certain external standards also. Failure without trying just says you did not try, but failure when you've tried says you just aren't any good. It's something similar to rejecting people before they reject you - you're the one in control. She's controlling her failure, in a sense.

    Generally, it's always helped me to have someone express confidence in my ability, but not to set forth any confining expectations. I had parents who did that, and they never had to ask me about homework. I did it because I knew I could do well, and no one was expecting anything other than what I could do.

    Sometimes INFPs need some help in realizing the value in practical things and getting stuff done for its own sake & not making it perfect. This helps to put off procrastination & ease worry over how perfect it turns out. Appealing to some inner ideal or a related value can help them see why something cannot be ignored and why doing it the best you can is better than not doing it at all.

    Do you know what enneagram she probably is?

    And are you quite sure her failure to do her homework is due to self-esteem? Honestly, I can think of a few other reasons a smart INFP may not be doing homework, and they are slightly more "rebellious", but won't register that way to others because we're very subtle about our rebellion.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    And are you quite sure her failure to do her homework is due to self-esteem? Honestly, I can think of a few other reasons a smart INFP may not be doing homework, and they are slightly more "rebellious", but won't register that way to others because we're very subtle about our rebellion.
    tehehe like boredom and lack of stimulation!

  6. #36
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Sounds a bit defensive, like your trying to justify that its a good thing even a little bit. I disagree and tend to believe its a form of self esteem bashing. Like biting your nails or a nervous twitch, you gotta find something to bag so why not your self but its your self esteem that gets knocked about.

    What I'm saying the psychology and reasoning behind doing this is out of a need and that need is often negative in nature. Its like saying sure I'll bag my little faults and let my bigger faults lay low but hell because its so much fun to do. I'm sure its like the short person got used to being teased about it all the times so adopted it as a behaviour modality where it becomes automatic, like a practiced script to pick on the short stature rather than anything else because its noticeable.

    Its funny how you can look at some people and think how tall they are for being so short while look at others and think how short they are for being so small...

    I guess my point is that its silly and its a learned response, criticize the negatives and ignore the positive features. Like your mind learns to write out negative features about you a mile long but dismisses the positives to a few words. Its in our expression too, how comfortable we are in our shoes I guess.

    Its like another quirk of ours where we are apologetic, saying sorry after things like we did something when there is nothing to be sorry about.
    To be honest, I do feel good while doing it. My self-esteem has been knocked about a plenty over the years so I'm pretty sure I know what's good for it and what's not.

    Self-deprecation is one way for me to get over my 'flaws' and stop obsessing over them. You spend so many years ruminating and worrying about these things and you get to a point where you think, I should just let it go, lighten up and not take these things so seriously. I'm not apologizing for them, I'm saying "this is the way it is. Oh well, we can't be the best at everything, no big deal..."
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    To be honest, I do feel good while doing it. My self-esteem has been knocked about a plenty over the years so I'm pretty sure I know what's good for it and what's not.

    Self-deprecation is one way for me to get over my 'flaws' and stop obsessing over them. You spend so many years ruminating and worrying about these things and you get to a point where you think, I should just let it go, lighten up and not take these things so seriously. I'm not apologizing for them, I'm saying "this is the way it is. Oh well, we can't be the best at everything, no big deal..."
    And that's part of the issue though, your making light of your issues.
    A way of under rug swept as much as ruminating over them. Neither solves much of anything and you stay in the same habit and pattern and wonder at it some more without realising your feeding something. Its like you do worry that's why you make light of in a subconscious way. Like the further you can either analyse it or push it aside the less likely it'll be in the way. Except that's the thing with self esteem without feeling positive about our self belief in our assertions then our self esteem is most likely going to stay as it has, a dig at our core beliefs about ourselves

    Of course nobody is perfect but at the same time we are doing things behind our backs that seem innocent and appropriate but are probably keeping us in a rut as much as the experiences we have now absorbed without challenging ourselves why those patterns exist as such.

    And who says we can't...can't is a naughty word just like should.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The teenage years were rough for me, and based on the comments of the many INFP teens online, that is not uncommon. They were not rough because I was teased or school was hard or anything like that. The feelings of alienation reach an all-time high, and INFPs need to relate their feeling to something external or perspective on them gets distorted. This can mean a distortion of self-worth and your own abilities.

    There are a number of factors which lead to this alienation...just to name a couple:

    - Teens tend to be very conscious of fitting in & are forging their identities outside of their family in relation to other people. However, INFPs often do not care to fit in & don't tend to forge an identity in relation to a group. It's kind of a lose-lose situation - compromise or isolate yourself.

    - Teenage emotions are amplified by hormones, and INFPs may withdraw in order to process these, because processing them to find meaning is somewhat fascinating to us. We can submerge so deeply we lose perspective.



    Possibly, her standards are so high she feels inhibited to act for fear of not meeting them. If she is generally acknowledged by others as very smart, this can add pressure to meet certain external standards also. Failure without trying just says you did not try, but failure when you've tried says you just aren't any good. It's something similar to rejecting people before they reject you - you're the one in control. She's controlling her failure, in a sense.

    Generally, it's always helped me to have someone express confidence in my ability, but not to set forth any confining expectations. I had parents who did that, and they never had to ask me about homework. I did it because I knew I could do well, and no one was expecting anything other than what I could do.

    Sometimes INFPs need some help in realizing the value in practical things and getting stuff done for its own sake & not making it perfect. This helps to put off procrastination & ease worry over how perfect it turns out. Appealing to some inner ideal or a related value can help them see why something cannot be ignored and why doing it the best you can is better than not doing it at all.

    Do you know what enneagram she probably is?

    And are you quite sure her failure to do her homework is due to self-esteem? Honestly, I can think of a few other reasons a smart INFP may not be doing homework, and they are slightly more "rebellious", but won't register that way to others because we're very subtle about our rebellion.
    Interesting. I resonate with the bolded parts. My grade school and high school years were the most difficult as well and for the same reasons you describe. In grade school, I spent the entire time with the same girls, who formed a tight and exclusive group. I didn't want anything to do with them but was jealous of them at the same time. As much as I desired the connection and good feeling of the other girls, they didn't include me in their group. As a consequence, I felt I didn't fit in and naturally sought out either solitary explorations or tried to make friends with the occasional new girl. If I felt a friend was comparing me to the group and I came up short, I would be extremely hurt and bow out. If I have to compete for a friendship, I'll walk away. But it hurt my self-esteem, I know, as I felt something was wrong with me. I definitely felt out of step. The thing was that this was probably the best thing that could have happened to me because I carved an identity apart from the group collective and found I didn't want it or need it (I mean the game-playing, 'you must fit in to our values' kind of group).

    I don't compare myself so much with others in a group. I like to learn from them and observe. There are times, however, when I feel that others are so much better at expressing themselves. I've read that INFPs have difficulty with articulation and I'm definitely that way. My thoughts tumble out and over one another and the words sometimes come in fragments.

  9. #39
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post

    Possibly, her standards are so high she feels inhibited to act for fear of not meeting them. If she is generally acknowledged by others as very smart, this can add pressure to meet certain external standards also. Failure without trying just says you did not try, but failure when you've tried says you just aren't any good. It's something similar to rejecting people before they reject you - you're the one in control. She's controlling her failure, in a sense.

    Generally, it's always helped me to have someone express confidence in my ability, but not to set forth any confining expectations. I had parents who did that, and they never had to ask me about homework. I did it because I knew I could do well, and no one was expecting anything other than what I could do.

    Sometimes INFPs need some help in realizing the value in practical things and getting stuff done for its own sake & not making it perfect. This helps to put off procrastination & ease worry over how perfect it turns out. Appealing to some inner ideal or a related value can help them see why something cannot be ignored and why doing it the best you can is better than not doing it at all.

    Do you know what enneagram she probably is?

    And are you quite sure her failure to do her homework is due to self-esteem? Honestly, I can think of a few other reasons a smart INFP may not be doing homework, and they are slightly more "rebellious", but won't register that way to others because we're very subtle about our rebellion.
    Maybe it's an anxiety issue and not a self esteem issue. Not sure.

    A quote, "Every day I beat myself up over the tiniest, most inconsequential details. I can even see how irrational I’m being, but I can’t stop doing it, even when I promise myself day after day after day that this will be the day when I catch up on everything (school-related and otherwise) that’s due, this will be the day when I stop sucking. And it never is. I feel like I’m stuck in this rut and can’t get out. It’s not about the study habits, it’s about the stupid feelings holding me back. I think."

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    A quote, "Every day I beat myself up over the tiniest, most inconsequential details. I can even see how irrational I’m being, but I can’t stop doing it, even when I promise myself day after day after day that this will be the day when I catch up on everything (school-related and otherwise) that’s due, this will be the day when I stop sucking. And it never is. I feel like I’m stuck in this rut and can’t get out. It’s not about the study habits, it’s about the stupid feelings holding me back. I think."
    I had similar experience when I was working home. It had many different things to do with it, but I think it mostly came down to being bored and unmotivated by the daily tasks I had to do. It wasn't even that I couldn't see the goal. I saw the long time goal and really wanted to get there, but the work itself became repulsive. I started avoiding the computer and the room I worked in, and did it in ways that I always had some small thing to be doing, so that I could put off the working for an hour or so. Anyways, the hours became days and weeks, and I could see myself doing it, I just couldn't do anything about it.

    I hope I knew how to get out from there... I just decided I won't work at home anymore. The fact that I could do the job at any time of the day was a bad thing, as it gave me the excuse to put it off. I think I need a schedule, but it is very hard for me to make one for myself and keep to it. If there are people involved, I'll get the work done, since I will feel like I'm letting them down if I don't keep to the schedule.

    BTW, I'm not sure if it has much to do with self-esteem. Actually she might consider herself "too good" for the task at hand. Let's say she knows she has learned it all. Why do homework then? I remember skipping homework sometimes. I just kept my ears open when the teacher was lecturing, it was enough for me to learn it. Or it might be some more serious motivational problem. Do you know if she thinks that the career is what she wants?

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