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  1. #21
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not NF, I'm NT but this is my experience too.

    Now I would say that this hasnt always been the case but it is the case now, when I was younger I had different expectations of sex, which tended to swing between the extremis of physical/recreational and spiritual/higher nature.

    To be honest its part of the reason that I'm interested in the topic and also the various accounts that others, particularly younger people, make, I'm not convinced that following all the dramatic changes from repressed to entirely open that society has really got it right in terms of the messages it transmits about sex and how it helps to form peoples expectations.

    That said its not succeeded in creating perfect mutual expectations in relation to life in general let alone sex.
    I don't think anything could. It's a process. I do think that introducing sex into a relationship prematurely can produce a false sense of intimacy and attachment where none is warranted otherwise, if that makes sense.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't think anything could. It's a process. I do think that introducing sex into a relationship prematurely can produce a false sense of intimacy and attachment where none is warranted otherwise, if that makes sense.
    It certainly does and I think its why some people do become sexual early in relationships, I've been disappointed sometimes by the world of hurt some of the kids I've worked in have opened up for themselves by becoming physically intimate with friends, people who are pretty much unambiguously friends, if even that but they've hoped it will some how transform things doing so.

  3. #23

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    I'm interested in whether or not this is a topic derived from just experience or the secular world or a confounded expectation arising from neither of those things but faith of some kind.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnflamedHeartofSand View Post
    Has anyone ever felt like they have given their all to someone? Been completely honest beyond the reach of words, with someone? Maybe even felt as if they had given their soul to someone else, through a sexual experience? If so, did you feel like your partner did the same? If not, how did it feel to be completely exposed, emptied of yourself, but not filled by the other?
    Whoa no. Why would I give my soul away? It's mine. No touchy. I don't like getting that close.

  5. #25
    Member EnflamedHeartofSand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm interested in whether or not this is a topic derived from just experience or the secular world or a confounded expectation arising from neither of those things but faith of some kind.
    Lark,
    This question is derived from a spiritual concern that might arise if one were to let their guard down with a sexual partner. It's a seemingly simple situation, but whoever responds saying that it's not a big deal, doesn't in my opinion, realize just how deep a statement they are making about themselves with each sexual experience. Though I agree, that someone might not believe that sex is a completely transcendent experience, and that sex itself is not a transcendent experience, unless done in such a way that one does wish to unveil themselves completely to another....to say that it is a mutual satisfaction of a strong physical need I think is an excuse....it is definitely a mutual satisfaction of a strong physical need but if that is all it is, then it is on it's way to becoming a source of self satisfaction, where the other is slowly becoming obsolete.

    I'll say more on the subject, gotta go now

  6. #26
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnflamedHeartofSand View Post
    Lark,
    This question is derived from a spiritual concern that might arise if one were to let their guard down with a sexual partner. It's a seemingly simple situation, but whoever responds saying that it's not a big deal, doesn't in my opinion, realize just how deep a statement they are making about themselves with each sexual experience. Though I agree, that someone might not believe that sex is a completely transcendent experience, and that sex itself is not a transcendent experience, unless done in such a way that one does wish to unveil themselves completely to another....to say that it is a mutual satisfaction of a strong physical need I think is an excuse....it is definitely a mutual satisfaction of a strong physical need but if that is all it is, then it is on it's way to becoming a source of self satisfaction, where the other is slowly becoming obsolete.

    I'll say more on the subject, gotta go now
    LOL.

    Why does someone else's experience have to coincide with your own theoretical value set in order to be valid and valuable?

    I love my husband of 18 years very deeply. He is the only partner I have ever had and I am his. He is an amazing person and the biggest blessing of my life and I respect, admire, and adore him.

    I am one of those people that almost never lives in the moment and just enjoys the physical experience. I'm always thinking about what happens next and what the implications of things are, practically, theoretically, philosophically.

    Sex is really the only time I can shut my frigging, pesty brain off and just enjoy physically feeling. That is absolutely invaluable to me and I thank God for it.

    I work towards pleasing my husband on a daily basis. I think about him in virtually every decision I make. I've made it my life mission to learn to read him and how to best love him in a way that is meaningful to him.

    Now I am a spiritual person but I don't make a big differentiation between the spiritual and the mundane. That which is done in love, whether it's wiping a baby's poopy butt or cooking someone's favorite meal, or holding someone while praying for them and comforting them, or feeling the awe of nature or feeling that Presence in church -- to me, all spiritual and all mundane. All good and wonderful.

    So is sex a spiritual experience? To me, not any more than anything else is. It's a precious, private, special experience, but -- to me -- not magical or mystical. It is really intense and feels amazing and personally, only something I do with my life-mate. It's one of the best things in life.

    But, hell, you are probably going to do it thousands of times in your life. It's just one component of life and one component of a relationship. How you treat your partner during a disagreement -- to me -- is more an indicator of your love for them than whether you have some kind of mystical experience during sex.

    Does that mean that I don't think it can't be a spiritual experience for others? I admit that I think it's possible they are confusing an oxytocin rush for something mystical, but who is to say, really? Frankly I have no right to say someone else's experience is not valid and real.

    You asked for people's input on this subject and then when you got answers that didn't match your own, you decide that those are 'wrong answers.' You can't dictate other people's feelings, including those of a lover. You can't even dictate your own feelings, really. You can influence them or repress them or displace them, but feelings pretty much just are. They stand on their own merit.

    What I would suggest, is that if you are very heavily invested in the spiritual side of sex, you need to spend a lot of time getting to know a partner in advance. You need to talk about what sex means to each of you and what your expectations are. You need to share spiritual experiences together that don't involve sex -- before you have sex with someone. And then, when you do, don't try to dictate their experience or their feelings. Just let them experience it in a way that is meaningful to them whilst you do the same.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #27
    Member EnflamedHeartofSand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post

    Why does someone else's experience have to coincide with your own theoretical value set in order to be valid and valuable?
    It doesn't, but I wouldn't accept an argument along the lines of "it's just sex" from a good friend who I cared about, or my sister, or if I ever have a daughter someday...

    I think there is always more to it than just sex, and people who justify it by trying to "demystify" the whole experience, are doing the right thing in not placing all of their hope in sex alone,However, after attempting to demystify sex, one shouldn't go the opposite extreme and make it completely profane without acknowledging that it has the potential of effecting them strongly because like it or not, it is an unveiling, that could leave one vulnerable and then hardened, or wounded, depending on the person.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Now I am a spiritual person but I don't make a big differentiation between the spiritual and the mundane. That which is done in love, whether it's wiping a baby's poopy butt or cooking someone's favorite meal, or holding someone while praying for them and comforting them, or feeling the awe of nature or feeling that Presence in church -- to me, all spiritual and all mundane. All good and wonderful.

    So is sex a spiritual experience? To me, not any more than anything else is. It's a precious, private, special experience, but -- to me -- not magical or mystical. It is really intense and feels amazing and personally, only something I do with my life-mate. It's one of the best things in life.
    I understand clearly the distinction you are making here, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. If one was to always seek an overwhelming feeling in life, then truly the mundane things like changing a baby's diapers or going to work, or shopping for clothes etc...would be excruciating. I think that you, despite reacting negatively to my post, are in reality, in agreement with me.

    I never described sex to be a magical or mystical experience, and that may be where you misunderstand me. After imagining what it might be like to have sex with a girl whom I love very much, began to wonder...."what if she held back?"


    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    before you have sex with someone. And then, when you do, don't try to dictate their experience or their feelings. Just let them experience it in a way that is meaningful to them whilst you do the same.
    If I wanted sex to be so individualistic, I'd just do it myself. If sex is a form of communication, than there will definitely be a leader and a follower, control, submission, pushing and pulling...anyways, I didn't post to argue, and I'm not claiming anyone is "wrong", so please don't engage me in another polemic.

  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Weirdly enough, for someone like me who has been detached for so long and never lives in the moment except under duress, the act of shutting off my brain, living in the moment and completely immersed in my body and all of my senses firing wildly at once IS a spiritual experience for me. At least, it is experienced as such.

    I am not sure why the two need to made distinct. "Transcendent" might just apply to an experience that is beyond the typical norm of daily life. Or not. There is no right answer, I am just throwing out an idea...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    Senior Member ExAstrisSpes's Avatar
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    Sex has always involved an emotional commitment from me, whether I wanted it that way or not. As I've gotten older, I've always warned fellows that I get emotionally attached very easily after having sex with them.

    I don't know about it being "spiritual". I've certainly had really, really nice sexual experiences with people I cared for (at the time). Looking back though, the only person I really want to be sexual with is the person I'm involved with right now. It's certainly been the best sex I've had the pleasure of sharing with someone. Physically it feels really good, and emotionally (for me at least) I feel really connected to him. And I feel that just strengthens our pair-bond.

    I had someone I used to be involved with approach me and mention he still fantasizes about when we were doing stuff together. I find that kind of sad, since he was never really emotionally invested in me at the time and all I really ever was to him was some sort of sexual outlet and now fantasy. If that's all that sex ever is to someone it's really not worth it.

  10. #30
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnflamedHeartofSand View Post
    It doesn't, but I wouldn't accept an argument along the lines of "it's just sex" from a good friend who I cared about, or my sister, or if I ever have a daughter someday...
    But here is the thing, you can disagree, but the way another person feels about something is the way they feel about it. Just because it's not how you feel about it doesn't make it a universal. It's an opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnflamedHeartofSand View Post
    I think there is always more to it than just sex, and people who justify it by trying to "demystify" the whole experience, are doing both the right thing in not placing all of their hope in sex alone. However, after attempting to demystify sex, one shouldn't go the opposite extreme and make it completely profane without acknowledging that it has the potential of effecting them strongly because like it or not, it is an unveiling, that could leave one vulnerable and then hardened, or wounded, depending on the person.
    Personally, I agree, but once again, I don't think I can make that belief universally applicable to everyone or invalidate the experiences of others.


    Quote Originally Posted by EnflamedHeartofSand View Post
    I understand clearly the distinction you are making here, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. If one was to always seek an overwhelming feeling in life, then truly the mundane things like changing a baby's diapers or going to work, or shopping for clothes etc...would be excruciating. I think that you, despite reacting negatively to my post, are in reality, in agreement with me.

    I never described sex to be a magical or mystical experience, and that may be where you misunderstand me. After imagining what it might be like to have sex with a girl whom I love very much, began to wonder...."what if she held back?"
    Then I would suspect her view and/or experience of sex is just different from your own or maybe there is a problem that has is basis somewhere in her psyche or in the relationship as a whole.

    You can control with whom you choose to be intimate, but you cannot control or dictate their feelings or experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by EnflamedHeartofSand View Post
    If I wanted sex to be so individualistic, I'd just do it myself. If sex is a form of communication, than there will definitely be a leader and a follower, control, submission, pushing and pulling...anyways, I didn't post to argue, and I'm not claiming anyone is "wrong", so please don't engage me in another polemic.
    In order to communicate and have good communication, do two parties have to have exactly the same ideas and opinions? I don't think so. And I don't think two people need to have identical experiences in order for the experience to be beautiful and meaningful.

    The reason I'm engaging you is that you used words taken from my previous post and disparaged them and discounted them. It was kind of a passive aggressive attack on my opinion and experiences -- which you asked for when you made this thread. So do not engage further if that is your choice, but in this, as in all human interactions, the only person's actions you can control are your own.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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