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  1. #31
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I understand the frustration with the different theories, I suppose you can be different types depending on the framework you're comparing yourself to. I mostly relate to Jung's introverted feeler, then the Berens function order (which might be complete bollocks), then to the various descriptions you find around the net, don't really know much about Lenore Thomson's stuff and probably last and least is Keirsey's party animals (Artisans). I don't think my behaviour really defines how I see myself that well, I relate to all of the temperaments on some level.

    It's interesting though when you start bringing in the tertiary function, you get:

    Fi
    Se+Ni = Pseudo Ne

    Fi
    Ne+Si = Pseudo Se

    Essentially the same type, so it gives you the flexibility to rationalise just about any person or any behaviour into any type, which seems dodgy to me and not unlike what astrologers do.
    There's most definitely a "mimicking" effect at times which can make it hard for a person to work out what type they are, especially when they get too focused on behavior. Patterns can be helpful, but they can also lead to stereotyping.

    I think NeSi and SeNi are different attitudes, and they can be untangled to find which you prefer, but stereotypes regarding behavior & interests have to be put aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I probably should think more on it. I should add that I'm not exactly activity, present tense, or "scenery" oriented. Sometimes, sometimes not. I do like discussing ideas.. I'm just selective. That kind of stuff can go in circles sometimes. This is where the sensor part comes out and I say "What can we do about it?" Not to shoot it down, but to focus on a goal, if there is one (which could be either J or S maybe?). And if there isn't, I want to talk about something else. Then I'm sort of N-like, in the sense that I want to be a librarian I'm considering devoting more time to writing fiction too. I conceptualize stories/characters/worlds. It could still be a Ni thing. And as a fan of stories, I don't necessarily have a preference for fantasy or realism either. I was annoyed seeing that one thread awhile back where someone mentioned an ISTP who only liked realism. That's pretty extreme. My mind shifts towards theme and archetypes behind stories. Not just the "concreteness of the setting". It's all good. On the sensor side, I like the "sensuous" aspect of playing my guitar in a way, and I like sports, but uh.. I don't think it's remarkable. I'd like to think anyone can be a little dynamic.
    Sooo much of this is about evaluating meaning, and it comes down to Fi.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #32
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Sooo much of this is about evaluating meaning, and it comes down to Fi.
    Fair enough. I just want to hold back and be no type for awhile. It's difficult to have to live up to either one, in the stereotypical sense. I don't speak too concretely. Like I see Jeffster asking anyone confused on ISFP if they speak "concretely" and I would easily answer "No." It takes no energy for me to juxtapose 3 or 4 ideas and not see them as seperate, but as bound together by some similarity - and deliver a point that way. Or relating a discussion on Heidegger to a Frosted Flakes commercial I saw once (OK, I'm screwing around now, but you get the point ). Whether it means I'm S or N isn't important so much that people understand that I'm not just speaking "what is". I wouldn't even be at this site if I wasn't so frustrated with people like that all around me, all my life. If I'm an SP, things would still probably be more fun if I knew more NTs and NFs.

  3. #33
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I can't say that I don't like freedom, of course, but that might not be it for me exactly. I'm sort of bringing some of those things back into reality (or want to). Not seeing fantasy as a realm of escape or a place that's unconfined, but also as a realm of inspiration. There's a lot of symbolism or underlying principles in stories worth taking to heart and emulating in real life. That, or they provide some inspiration to help me think how I can be creative on my own too. Like it's so damn brilliant it gets your own creative juices flowing.

    To make matters more confusing though, I'll quote Thomson again. She says it is Fi in general who latches on to the universalism and principles found in a lot of stories. Not just INFPs who are fantasy oriented.

    IFPs feel precisely this kind of tension when they try to adapt the objective world to their inner one. It's as though some unformulated answer that would reveal the interconnectedness of the universe were trapped inside them, and all of the questions people ask are too small, can't contain what they have to give. This is one reason IFPs turn to achetypal imagery--media figures, Gothic or Athurian romance, goddesses--to represent their deepest values.
    Hmmm, considering that I own a couple of hundred fantasy/scifi books, I should have some reasons for liking them, right?

    Let's see
    - The freedom thing is one part of it. Though it's not just the belief of the fantastical like magic and unicorns exists, but also the fact that the world doesn't have to follow the laws of physics as we know it. Why have just 1 sun when you can have 2 or 3?
    - The idealist in me of course enjoys the "underdog/unknown rises to be a hero" narrative that exists in many fantasy tales. Or the tales of redemption where the fallen can rise again.
    - Also, in many cases, the 'bad guys' in the story are not humans. Perhaps I'm just tired of reading about the evil that people do to other people in the news that I have this need to escape to a place where people have to band together to overcome an alien threat that threatens to wipe them out.
    - Oh, and they usually have cool-looking cover art
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  4. #34
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    It's also kind of untrue. Sure, there are extreme Ss who are like that, but my ESFJ ex hates strip clubs and he stands on principle about it, which is kind of bizarre considering his relationship with me. I also know an ISFJ who has moral opinions about this sort of thing (and no, it's not because he was raised with religion and is brainwashed, because he's actually an atheist.)

    You REALLY think Ss never question things? REALLY? Have you ever had a conversation with a really intelligent ISTP like Gish? I don't think AyoitsStepho - an ISFP - is that "shallow" either.

    There are shallow stupid people in the world. To assume all Ss are like that is doing them a complete disservice.
    Not being concerned with things that aren't "real" DOES NOT equal shallow.
    This is about letting the mind wonder to things that aren't right infront of you or at all provable. Abstract concepts, theories. ...Ns tend to do that for no reason instead of just taking in the stuff that is there infront of them and leaving it at that (sort of like you deduced the previous poster's message to be "sex work is bad" when that wasn't infront of you). Way to turn it into "Ss are stupid" which is NOT what I was saying at all.

    I know one confirmed ISFP, he is my mirror so i know very well Ss aren't a different species.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  5. #35
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    It's too bad the cognitive processes test doesn't use the same wording as this old one (it's broken btw, but worth looking at): Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes

    It might be possible to help work out where you fit by looking back and forth at the questions and the function definitions here (these definitions put P and J functions in tandem.. it's unique):

    Cognitive Processes and Tandem Dynamics

    ---
    I want to say I'm more Fe/Ti, not Fi/Te. Maybe it's because I like the Golden Rule The perception definitions are harder to pin down.

    Anyways, I don't know if this was appropriate to put here. I just meant to show those links if anyone wanted to double check where they'd place themselves.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Hah! You know, this friend of mine did exactly that. No response at all. He was just eating a sandwich. And it was a straight question, something about some practical matter, like, "when do you think this thing could be ready". The question was repeated a couple of times, even... And, whew, the stuff I hear about this one incident... my SJ friend still keeps talking about it...
    He was eating a sandwich. You have your answer right there. Usually I have no trouble answering questions and kind of enjoy saying whatever. But don't ask me a question when I am eating a sandwich. There is more important business on my mind.

  7. #37
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'd side close to the NF, but not necessarily the complexity. I share some part of the underlying philosophy/value system, but I don't care to convince some other guy on my stance. Some subjects are cool to get into, especially if they're untapped, but usually those discussions go nowhere. That's why I don't talk about politics much either. Funnily, I dated girls who turned out to be strippers (when I didn't know), but I still hate strip bars. I would actually talk to them, not some guy, and if it was in my power, I'd hook them up in safer jobs (then again, some strip clubs are safer than others.. then I might have to convince them on some general disapproval of their job. I wouldn't make some eloquent philosophical argument though). It could be a mix of concrete and ideal with me.

    I still could be ISFP myself. My problem is not really lining up in neat Keirsey-like ways. I have too much N apparently for some ISFPs and too much F that veers on the "idealist" side.
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is actually quite Fi - you won't find me discussing politics or religion 'round these parts much either, or much in person, unless it's with someone I trust a LOT. You'll see both IxFPs reluctant to push their beliefs onto others, or feel the need to guard them so closely that they are extremely selective about who they share them with, key word being "share". Instead of talking, I think we tend to walk the walk. As mentioned above, this can be truer of ISFPs even. INFPs may inadvertently seem argumentative when they feel they are just exchanging ideas (no emphasis on right vs. wrong necessarily), but the more deeply held, the less apt they may be to discuss them.

    Fi in itself is idealistic - Gifts Differing says it of both IxFPs, and actually refers to all the F types as having strong ideals (which they do). Jung's description of Fi applies to ISFPs also. It's Se that adds that concrete aspect to ISFPs, and Ne which amps up the idealistic aspect of INFPs.

    And Keirsey sucks - if I went by Keirsey, to be an INFP I'd have to be some Mother Theresa type who is entirely selfless and almost spineless (which I am not - for better or worse), and my artistic inclinations would indicate I am an SP (which I am not).
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Maybe it's more of an Fi thing? I know I ask myself a lot what is the point of this? What is the value in discussing or carrying on with this course of action? In group work I am the guy always trying to steer people back to the end goal, asking is what we're doing now adding value to the end product? If not move on. I suppose the ISFP will always wonder "What's the value in this? How will it improve my day to day life?" and the INFP might ask "What is the value in this? How will this improve things in the future (or some other abstraction?)?"
    I've never fully connected with this whole concept of INFPs withholding personal views. I'm very opinionated and outspoken.

    OK so when I think about it I do hold back if I feel uncomfortable in the situation or with the people, I make vague, non-committal statements but that is more shyness than anything. And I suppose sometimes when someone is expressing a view I don't totally agree with, I do often try to relate by reiterating that viewpoint with a relevant argument to back them up and make them feel understood. But once I'm relaxed, just try and stop me expressing my opinion. I rarely try to cram my opinion down someone's throat; this only happens when the person involved has a belief that is so wrong and backwards to me, that it offends me and I feel the need to correct it.

    Back on topic: I do feel ISFP are a little more wary of owning their opinions. They seem keen to test the water first because they are so worried someone might disagree; and that if others disagree they feel inclined to believe themselves wrong, not the other person. INFPs are much more stubborn and possessive of their views, its all, "I believe this, so what?".
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #38
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Back on topic: I do feel ISFP are a little more wary of owning their opinions. They seem keen to test the water first because they are so worried someone might disagree; and that if others disagree they feel inclined to believe themselves wrong, not the other person. INFPs are much more stubborn and possessive of their views, its all, "I believe this, so what?".
    Hmm, yeah.. that's not exactly me at all. Sometimes I'm worried about hurting other people though (it's more about them than me). And this is kind of both coming from a state of paranoia and lessons learned from the past.. so I need to think more if that's Ni or Si. I'm not afraid of speaking my opinions, but I've learned to be diplomatic about it (Fe/Ti?). Unless it's obvious that I need to do something.

    As for philosophical subjects, it's not that I don't understand them.. or that I don't want want to own up to any of my thoughts. If it came to a discussion about the complexity of stripbars, I'd simply say it's pathetic. I'm being partly "theoretical" and partly speaking from what I've observed. I've never been one of those guys who paid a stripper anything. Yet I have taken them out. That's ironic and sad. That's my take on it. Why waste your time paying strippers for nothing when you could be elsewhere, meet a girl, and she could be happen to a stripper! Without any of pandering involved. I'd not recommend either though. As for the strippers themselves, they should find better jobs. Those places are either creepy, dangerous, or even if they're nice, there's not that much future in it. I met a couple of young ones who were already messed up.. but I knew a pretty good looking older ex-stripper (who was 42 at the time), and she had nothing going for her. She had a fun life in LA, had some funny photos with two of the biggest manwhores ever (Charlie Sheen and Gene Simmons), so you know she'd be around.. but when I met her, she was slaving as a bartender in a crappy club. So... there ya go, I guess. Saying I didn't care to discuss the subject wasn't the right way to put it really. I just mean the downfalls are so obvious that there's not much to discuss.

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