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[ENFP] Upset ENFPs: Handle With Care

angelhair45

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Evan, so I read your post for the millionth time since everyone keeps quoting it and I caught something.
If someone can't communicate something, or is saying untrue things about what they're thinking, why should they expect a positive response? They're misrepresenting themselves and they want people to know that. But sometimes they're not misrepresenting themselves. So to put the responsibility of figuring that out on the OTHER PERSON is completely stupid. No one can read minds.

Now, I'm not going to say ENFPs have never expected someone to read their minds ( I know I have, but my ESTP husband is actually much worse at that expectation than I am). But that isn't always what is going on.

I am not trying to put the responsibility of figuring out the problem onto the listener. I just want them to listen'. I'll figure it out, if they just listen instead of shutting me down. I don't know what I think until I express it, but generally I have to express wrong stuff before I get to the right stuff. I'm not just spouting off "untrue" things, I am processing it OUT LOUD because that is how I work. If I didn't do it that way, I'd probably be an INFP. It's a very important process, but listeners have to understand it's a process or they will be like "WTF?". If you read my signature quote that pretty much sums up a lot of ENFPs. I do this when I am perfectly calm, so why would the process change when I become upset? I have to extrovert my thoughts and feelings in order to figure them out. I am not expecting the listener to figure out anything.

Their need to ask is even more important than their desire for an answer. ENFPs think out loud and do not censor or edit their thoughts. They actually need to hear what they've said before they can apply any judgment to it. For ENFPs, the process rules.
From Nurture by Nature
 

skylights

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i am quoting this and making this huge because it is so ridiculously important. :yes:

I don't know what I think until I express it, but generally I have to express wrong stuff before I get to the right stuff. I'm not just spouting off "untrue" things, I am processing it OUT LOUD because that is how I work.

If I didn't do it that way, I'd probably be an INFP. It's a very important process, but listeners have to understand it's a process or they will be like "WTF?". If you read my signature quote that pretty much sums up a lot of ENFPs. I do this when I am perfectly calm, so why would the process change when I become upset? I have to extrovert my thoughts and feelings in order to figure them out. I am not expecting the listener to figure out anything.

poki said:
Some people are worth it.

edit: Also some people enjoy figuring things out. Its easier to be worth it for these people.

this too. it's all give and take. i don't mind dealing with someone who is stubborn or feeling down often or skeptical or guarded or sarcastic or suspicious or reckless or stuck up or the possessor of any other number of flaws that i'll probably end up finding rather endearing if they're willing to see my flaws for what they are and help me too.

i don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't try to handle it ourselves. we should. but to some extent, it's just who we are, and we can't have our positive traits without having their shadows, too.
 

Thalassa

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Hmmm, okay. So the next time an ENFP gets a crush on me Ill direct them to the nearest single intj. It seems more efficient for all involved. :D

Don't assume all ENFPs have my weirdo fascination/fetish. ;)

I have to remember Im an emotard and will never understand emotions as much as a Te user. So it makes sense, since Im totally unaware of human protocol, especially when it comes to emotional outbursts and always will be. *nudge nudge*


For me it's not that Te users understand emotions more. If anything, they're probably more robotic. I've found ENTPs to be quite open and personable, even when they're infuriarating. It's just the way Ti users talk to me sometimes makes me want to break things.
 

nolla

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I am not trying to put the responsibility of figuring out the problem onto the listener. I just want them to listen'. I'll figure it out, if they just listen instead of shutting me down. I don't know what I think until I express it, but generally I have to express wrong stuff before I get to the right stuff. I'm not just spouting off "untrue" things, I am processing it OUT LOUD because that is how I work. If I didn't do it that way, I'd probably be an INFP.

Ok, now I am sure I'm not an E. But, how does that work? If you have no sensor, you could be saying just about anything... no one would let you to the dinner table... :jew:

Does this also mean that you don't have this inner dialogue going on?
 

skylights

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Ok, now I am sure I'm not an E. But, how does that work? If you have no sensor, you could be saying just about anything... no one would let you to the dinner table... :jew:

Does this also mean that you don't have this inner dialogue going on?

oh no, always... but for me i have trouble processing things logically until they come out. i can notice patterns and develop theories and consistency-check and everything inside my head but i need it to come out for fact-checking purposes. for objective analysis.

and i mean, it's not like we don't have any restraint on what we say. i'm pretty socially reserved. but when i'm trying to explain something, the more i output, the more i start to see things i missed. i don't really know why. something about the process of making it come out into vocal words or writing helps me do refining similar to Ti, i think.
 

Lady_X

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yes yes yes to the processing out loud. that is why we may seem contradictory because people assume these are set in stone conclusions but it's just out loud thinking...very very important for people to get that...maybe we need to start explaining that before we start. :/
 

nolla

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oh no, always... but for me i have trouble processing things logically until they come out. i can notice patterns and develop theories and consistency-check and everything inside my head but i need it to come out for fact-checking purposes. for objective analysis.

and i mean, it's not like we don't have any restraint on what we say. i'm pretty socially reserved. but when i'm trying to explain something, the more i output, the more i start to see things i missed. i don't really know why. something about the process of making it come out into vocal words or writing helps me do refining similar to Ti, i think.

yes yes yes to the processing out loud. that is why we may seem contradictory because people assume these are set in stone conclusions but it's just out loud thinking...very very important for people to get that...maybe we need to start explaining that before we start. :/

I guess you should give some kinda warning :yes: Because to me this makes little sense (and if you consider my type, it should make some sense).

If I'm talking with someone, usually I kinda use "pre-prepared" material, like something I have thought before, something that I can just drop in. A bit like micro-pizza. But, I guess we are not talking about this. If I am talking with someone and they present me with something new, I kinda stop talking, go into my mind with the new stuff, and turn it around, see where it can be applied to, see if it doesn't fit with my other theories. Then I come back, and probably ask something concerning how it seemed to fit my general view of things.
 

animenagai

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Nolla, I think with Ne, it's something we can do in our heads very easily, whereas with something like Ti, it's something we need to externalize to make work. Different types of cognitive functions there. Maybe it's because extroverted Ti looks kinda like Te.
 

Lady_X

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well you know how when you're thinking in your head...oh...it must be this because of that! and that's why it was that way and why this was that way...oh...wait...no it wasn't actually...it just appeared that way because of this...ah ha! riiiight...okay so really...it's this and not that...and then...out loud you say what you've concluded it is...right?

well...we do that shit out loud.
 

nolla

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Nolla, I think with Ne, it's something we can do in our heads very easily, whereas with something like Ti, it's something we need to externalize to make work. Different types of cognitive functions there. Maybe it's because extroverted Ti looks kinda like Te.

Why is the introverted function extroverted? Isn't it supposed to be intro by nature? Or do you mean that Ti goes through Ne or something like that?

well you know how when you're thinking in your head...oh...it must be this because of that! and that's why it was that way and why this was that way...oh...wait...no it wasn't actually...it just appeared that way because of this...ah ha! riiiight...okay so really...it's this and not that...and then...out loud you say what you've concluded it is...right?

well...we do that shit out loud.

But is it not on special occasions? Like, the example I just gave... I can pretty much throw those micro-pizzas most of the time, since I just use stuff I don't really have to work to get to. It's like there are rarely subjects I need to "figure out" since once I've done that, it's just hanging around there waiting to be used.
 

Lady_X

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obviously yeah...sometimes we already know stuff...haha
 

animenagai

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Why is the introverted function extroverted? Isn't it supposed to be intro by nature? Or do you mean that Ti goes through Ne or something like that?

It's more that Ti is supposedly weaker than Te in our order of function. Maybe even more importantly, it's because we as extroverts like to externalise our thought processes in general. It gives us another element to interact with, as odd as that may sound. Our Ne is just so strong that we don't necessarily need to externalise it for it to be running on all 4 cylinders, but not all our functions are that awesome.
 

skylights

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I guess you should give some kinda warning :yes: Because to me this makes little sense (and if you consider my type, it should make some sense).

If I'm talking with someone, usually I kinda use "pre-prepared" material, like something I have thought before, something that I can just drop in. A bit like micro-pizza. But, I guess we are not talking about this. If I am talking with someone and they present me with something new, I kinda stop talking, go into my mind with the new stuff, and turn it around, see where it can be applied to, see if it doesn't fit with my other theories. Then I come back, and probably ask something concerning how it seemed to fit my general view of things.

lol micropizza!!! :D

anyway yeah i think that's a big ENFP INFP difference. i do that little check too but i'm not sure of the results until i say them!

and haha yeah a lot of times i ask people to help me figure out something and then i'll just kind of talk at them for a minute and reach my own conclusion. i used to do it all the time in elementary school and kids would be like well wtf did you need me for?! but i did need them. and that is a secret between you and me and the internets.

Nolla, I think with Ne, it's something we can do in our heads very easily, whereas with something like Ti, it's something we need to externalize to make work. Different types of cognitive functions there. Maybe it's because extroverted Ti looks kinda like Te.

maybe extraverted Ti IS Te? o_O;

i don't mean this sarcastically, i just mean that the reason we HAVE to get stuff out to logic it is because our Ti generally sucks. we literally suck at logicking it inside. but if we get it out, we have GOOD tert Te, and then we can analyze it that way. and we've all seen that play out in real life without understanding it in this context.

*suddenly understands*
*dances*
:banana::moonwalk::moonwalk::moonwalk::banana:
 

redacted

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Evan, so I read your post for the millionth time since everyone keeps quoting it and I caught something.

Now, I'm not going to say ENFPs have never expected someone to read their minds ( I know I have, but my ESTP husband is actually much worse at that expectation than I am). But that isn't always what is going on.

I am not trying to put the responsibility of figuring out the problem onto the listener. I just want them to listen'. I'll figure it out, if they just listen instead of shutting me down. I don't know what I think until I express it, but generally I have to express wrong stuff before I get to the right stuff. I'm not just spouting off "untrue" things, I am processing it OUT LOUD because that is how I work. If I didn't do it that way, I'd probably be an INFP. It's a very important process, but listeners have to understand it's a process or they will be like "WTF?". If you read my signature quote that pretty much sums up a lot of ENFPs. I do this when I am perfectly calm, so why would the process change when I become upset? I have to extrovert my thoughts and feelings in order to figure them out. I am not expecting the listener to figure out anything.

I have a ton of patience (face to face at least; here there's not as much at stake so I don't care as much). But once the ENFP (or whatever type is venting) starts displacing shit onto me, I'm done. It's not my responsibility to listen to them if they're directing anger at me that I don't deserve (it might be a bit different with Wonka because he never took the time to even entertain my position).

Everyone's talking like I don't get ENFPs. What about this explanation -- I do get them but I won't cater to them if they're pulling some manipulative bullshit. Believe me, the two ENFPs I know extraordinarily well (my best friend and my aunt) both think of me as one of the most patient understanding people they know. But they also know I won't deal with bullshit -- if they want my help, fine -- I'll be on their side 100%. But if they become against me, it's just over.

My ENFP best friend has literally said I understand her better than anyone in the world. I'm not claiming to know all ENFPs this well, but I'm not lacking in understanding or something.

Also, I like almost every ENFP on here. Just because Wonka was ENFP and I disliked him shouldn't mean anything about my stance on the type overall.
 

Poki

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But they also know I won't deal with bullshit -- if they want my help, fine -- I'll be on their side 100%. But if they become against me, it's just over.

So...the quickest and most permanent way to lose an IxTP is to screw us over. Other then that we are pretty patient, understanding, easy going people.

Im trying to figure out the "handle with care" part though. Handle caringly, but not eggshells.
 

skylights

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So...the quickest and most permanent way to lose an IxTP is to screw us over. Other then that we are pretty patient, understanding, easy going people.

Im trying to figure out the "handle with care" part though. Handle caringly, but not eggshells.

sorry i'm becoming a rabid poster guys. most recent freelancing job just finished = lots o spare time. it'll go away soon enough.

to transfer over from the Fe-Fi forum - handle our identities/egos/core selves caringly. we put it all out there so you usually can see our weaknesses pretty obviously. we need to have you let us know that our selves are fundamentally valuable, because since our judging function is subjective, we can't make that decision for ourselves. but as long as you support our inner selves/intentions, you can feel free to tell us how fucked up our external actions were. :yes:

i think INTJs have a natural ability for this (ISTJs should too) because they have Fi too, and so they inherently experience that idea of ego validation. and it's good with someone else if you're in a romantic relationship with them, because the whole point of a romantic relationship is that you love the other person for themselves. so that validation is more clear. but in a random internet forum stranger relationship, i see why it's like wtf.

poki what do you mean by screwing you over?
 

nolla

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obviously yeah...sometimes we already know stuff...haha

Oh, yeah, that's right, my mistake, hah! :smile:

Nah, just difficult explaining something inside my head and comparing it to your explanation of your head, but I think I got it now. If you use this figuring out as rarely as I, then it really isn't a whole lot of time... Previously I had trouble understanding it since I kept trying to find an example of someone doing it IRL but couldn't. That must be because it is not very often that you need to do it.
 

Lady_X

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oh...i may have misspoke...but it's fairly often. haha

i mean...all the time..

i think out loud to who i'm with but if someone came up and asked me a question about something i knew...i'd just say it....without the whole out loud processing thing.
 
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