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  1. #81
    He who laughs
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    But you know, on the other hand, I've noticed that some NTs (most often NTPs, and most of all ENTPs) enjoy going around provoking NFs for amusement. Then they have the nerve to act surprised or even superior when it works.

    That's also immature and egocentric.
    Agreed


    Edit: I think we need a sarcasm emoticon for us NTPs then

  2. #82
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    I agree with a lot of what the OP says, but not all of it. I do think it's important for my biggest frustrations to be heard. Can I stay quiet? Well of course I can, but know that there's going to be something ticking at me constantly, and that's not healthy.

    I do think however that not every type of problem requires me to be emotionally expressive. EMOTIONAL problems require me to be emotionally expressive. I mean if my belt isn't working like it should and my pants are constantly slipping down, I can be annoyed about it (which I guess turns into an emotion) but I wouldn't feel the need to express it.

    The types of problems that I need to express are very much Fi in nature. Problems like racism, feeling like I'm a bad friend, not wanting to let people down etc. If you think about it, problems of that nature don't actually require some sort of right/wrong formal debate. If someone was racist to me, that's the past and I just want to get this monstrosity out of my chest and out of my system. If I feel like I'm a bad friend because I don't see them enough, I just want someone to smile and say "It's ok, as long as you're working at it".

    With problems of this nature, there is no black and white debate. It's just about an emotional extrovert getting rid of their negativity. Therefore, I completely agree that just talking about it is half the battle, even if nothing has changed externally. I'm not saying that there aren't problems to be fixed and that I would be happier if they were, but it's still very important to get things off my chest.

    When Wonka said 'If you don't like what they say or the way they say it, keep in mind that arguing with them will only make things worse', I therefore interpret this not as a "ENFP's need to be right so don't disagree with them", but that we want our emotional issues to be understood. I certainly think that with most if not all of my Fi issues, it would be weird to have major disagreements. This isn't because I think I'm always right, just because 1) it's an emotional problem I already admit to having and 2) I just want to be understood, not to be correct.

    I hope I didn't miss something when I was reading the thread. lol I hope this is a useful rant
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  3. #83
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    I think people are missing the point of the OP.

    The point was that if you don't handle an upset ENFP with care you are likely to ESCALATE the problem.


    It seems like a lot of posts are focused on the upset ENFP's actions being "wrong."


    But when you are dealing with an upset ENFP, which matters more to you:

    1. Judging the upset ENFP's actions as "wrong"?

    OR

    2. Avoiding an ESCALATION of the problem?


    If it's number 2, then which part of the OP does not sound like good advice?
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  4. #84
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    are you really so sure that all ENFPs will agree with you? And what is your reasons behind this thread? Most people will agree with what you are saying anyways. Eventhough some of the ideas still seems egocentric to me. Mostly in the sense that it seems to me you are trying to advocate that people should just be ENFPs emotional garbage bins and be okay with that. What Im trying to explain is that most people will probably not like that and will eventually grow tired of you if you dont meet them half way. Here Im talking about reasonable people that meets you in a tone of friendliness and wants to help you by giving you advice that might be different than what you expect.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I think people are missing the point of the OP.
    Am I one of these people?

    If I am, then I guess I must clarify: My point was to give you an outsider perspective on how the post looked like. Since you said you wanted to have a discussion, I pointed out what in the OP made a few people react the way they did. This is not to point out you are wrong, in the absolute sense... but to point out that you made it less probable of having a meaningful discussion about what you wanted to say.

    Basically, you can't have a vent and a discussion simultaneously.

  6. #86
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Am I one of these people?

    If I am, then I guess I must clarify: My point was to give you an outsider perspective on how the post looked like. Since you said you wanted to have a discussion, I pointed out what in the OP made a few people react the way they did. This is not to point out you are wrong, in the absolute sense... but to point out that you made it less probable of having a meaningful discussion about what you wanted to say.

    Basically, you can't have a vent and a discussion simultaneously.
    The OP was not a vent at all.

    I don't see how anyone would interpret it that way, unless they are confusing/linking some other thread I started with this one.

    It seems to be that because I ruffled some feathers in one particular thread the other day, anything I post is going to be taken as trouble-making for a while.

    In fact, a few people may be biased against me for threads I posted ages ago.

    And still others will probably never let it go. I will always be bad news to them.

    Is that fair? No.
    But it's life.


    I also started a thread about an awesome Philosophy podcast, and one providing a definition of functions.

    I wonder if people will misinterpret those as well?
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  7. #87
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    Well, ummm... it might be all the bold and italics and different sized letters, or then it is because the post is just not fertile for a discussion. What is the point of starting a discussion declaring that this is what I know and now don't say anything about it or the consequences will be severe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    If they feel that they are being dismissed or silenced or told they "shouldn't" feel they way they feel, they are likely to resort to extreme behavior in order to make sure they are heard.

    NOBODY wants this to happen. Not the ENFP or anyone else.

    The more you dismiss them or try to silence them, the more problems will result in the end.
    How are we supposed to discuss this?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    It seems to be that because I ruffled some feathers in one particular thread the other day, anything I post is going to be taken as trouble-making for a while.
    This is not true. I have no idea what your problems are in those previous posts. I might have seen a couple of the posts somewhere but I wasn't interested. I am talking about how your posting has been today in this thread. The OP has a tone, whether you realize it or not.

  9. #89
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why people are having such a hard time understanding the OP. The issue here is about language, I think. Let me give you a uh, subpar example with no real content because I'm lifting from old (un)successful conversations and taking out the personal details

    :steam:: blah blah blah
    : well no, that's wrong.
    :steam:: but it just feels like blah blah blah
    : well that doesn't make sense. you have (x, y, and z) and so even being upset about it is pointless.
    :steam:: ....but i do feel upset about it, because (a, b, and c)
    : well alright but being upset about it is stupid.
    :steam:::steam:

    vs.

    :steam:: blah blah blah
    : well now, do you think that's really accurate? because maybe (x, y, z)?
    :steam:: well yeah, but it feels like blah blah blah
    : i'd imagine so.
    :steam:: yeah, i dunno why but it just made me feel so blah blah blah because (a, b, and c)
    : i know it did, but do you think maybe (d, e, or f)?
    : yeah i know. that probably is what's best but i don't know it's just really upsetting and it's hard to think things through properly amongst all the inner turmoil.
    : it's cool, you're ENFP

    that's it! We're approaching our feelings of conflict and being upset by seeking outside stimulation in order to make sense of it all. Inside i'm so all over the place that i need to seek stability from outside, NOT within...at least not until later when I'm able to take all the info I've gathered from others and have cooled down enough to process it all.

    Conversations like the first throw us into further turmoil because it's all criticism and no content; tough love in the form of "get over it" like this isn't usually helpful (there are exceptions, of course).

    Conversations like the second, however, are much more constructive. I'm willing to see my lapses of judgment pointed out to me; hell most of the time it's because i WANT to see them but I can't so I'm seeking out others for an Ne-fest.

    Like Little Linguist mentioned, my process of "thinking things through" is external and this is what I'm doing: seeking out other viewpoints in order to get the bigger picture. It's not about coddling, it's about needing some help seeing through the fog and this is how i do it. Telling me it might be helpful to think about it another way is helpful; telling me "you shouldn't feel upset" is useless because hello, I'm already upset!

    Now of course there is a responsibility on the ENFPs part to walk away from a conversation that is agitating or not helpful; I have to from time to time or it will escalate things and yeah, I don't want that. It's not why I went into the conversation in the first place. but that's not what the OP is about: it's about the OTHER side of the issue and the ideal exchange between an upset ENFP and the lucky other
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    :steam:: blah blah blah
    : well no, that's wrong.
    :steam:: but it just feels like blah blah blah
    : well that doesn't make sense. you have (x, y, and z) and so even being upset about it is pointless.
    :steam:: ....but i do feel upset about it, because (a, b, and c)
    : well alright but being upset about it is stupid.
    :steam:::steam:

    vs.

    :steam:: blah blah blah
    : well now, do you think that's really accurate? because maybe (x, y, z)?
    :steam:: well yeah, but it feels like blah blah blah
    : i'd imagine so.
    :steam:: yeah, i dunno why but it just made me feel so blah blah blah because (a, b, and c)
    : i know it did, but do you think maybe (d, e, or f)?
    : yeah i know. that probably is what's best but i don't know it's just really upsetting and it's hard to think things through properly amongst all the inner turmoil.
    : it's cool, you're ENFP

    So help me god, that smiley face example reminds me of having a conversation with an ENTP vs. an INTJ on the same topic.

    I hate to generalize by type, but seriously, that's my genuine personal experience.

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