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  1. #351
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    INTPs and ENFPs arguing about agendas?

    It happens so often too. And always leading in the same direction: to some place where the world is free from drama and there are proper ways to behave in public. It's almost like, *gasp*...



    Or to put it another way, if you detect a hidden agenda, it's probably because there's introverted judgment behind the extroverted intuition. (And less than conscious extroverted judgment too.) And if you think you're not doing something absurd in developing your own position, then possibly the ENFPs are not doing something absurd either in developing theirs. But if you view with suspicion your own inner workings, then view theirs that way too.

    Which cuts both ways, of course: if ENFPs are to be liberated from the oppression of too much propriety, INTPs are to be liberated from the distress of too much liberality. Muzzle both.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Really?

    (Re-reads OP)

    Wow, so it looks like that was massively edited since the last time I read it. Still:

    This is bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit. I don't think ENFPs have to be approached this way -- like you have to tiptoe around them. If I actually took that message to heart, I'd lose respect for ENFPs.

    If someone can't communicate something, or is saying untrue things about what they're thinking, why should they expect a positive response? They're misrepresenting themselves and they want people to know that. But sometimes they're not misrepresenting themselves. So to put the responsibility of figuring that out on the OTHER PERSON is completely stupid. No one can read minds. If you express yourself in a non-productive way, you are the one creating the problem. Not the person who is listening.

    No one gets to just throw tantrums and expect the other people around them to give in. Most ENFPs completely agree with this.

    I don't think it's productive at all to tell the people around you "hey, I'm going to be crazy sometimes, and it's up to you to figure out when and placate me. if I insult you, don't be offended, except when I actually mean it. Oh yeah, and you have to figure out if I do mean it."
    I think you just want to pick a fight because you feel someone hasn't following your code of proper conduct and may have said something that offends you.

    I don't think you know ENFPs as well as you think. They seek out unique feelings and situations. Sometimes that takes them to places that makes you where you feel embarrassed for how they are behaving. They are unfortunately a specific breed of drama prone individual.

    Now imagine you behaved that way; they are much more embarrassed than you are and they generally just want someone to try to understand and to be non-judgemental.

    Also remember that the reason that they cannot explicitly state what they are wanting to say is because there is some kind of block, be that pride or expectation. Yes, sometimes they expect you to read their mind. You'll never convince them this is unrealistic until they've relaxed; therefore it is a lot easier if you calm them down! Generally I find you can't convince an ENFP of anything if they are stressed or upset or putting a lot of onus on it.

    To reiterate, I've observed the system the following sequence of events.

    1) ENFP gets upset about issue and can't process it
    2) ENFP can't state exactly why they are upset and gets upset at themselves
    3) ENFP might rampage a little - ENFP operates on Transmit only
    4) ENFP looks for understanding and feels upset at themselves for not being able to understand why they behaved as they did
    5) If someone doesn't understand what the ENFP is trying to say they then repeat at that person because it has became important. The person may become the target of the angst if the ENFP is getting more upset.

    This is why I specified that ENFPs simply want someone to listen. Let them tell you everything and then make a judgement after they have said what they want to say and got all that information out. They have a point, they are just stuck trying to specify what it is.

    They want to know that no matter how bizarre their one off behaviour is that you aren't going to hold it against them. Of course there are practical limits, I know that for (some) INTPs those are pretty low when dealing with these sorts of situations just like (some) ENFPs have more self control.

    In terms of productive, it's not supposed to be productive its supposed to be a vent, not productive!

  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    don't worry, as long as you promise to try to be patient and understanding then we'll take INTP too
    Speak for yourself.

  4. #354
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    In terms of productive, it's not supposed to be productive its supposed to be a vent, not productive!
    well, and we really can be quite productive. i'm always on a productive kick an hour or so following outburst. but the Feelings have to be released and processed via Te for me to get to that point. and note that i really prefer being productive. being an emotional storm inside blows.

    it just takes a little patience on the other person's side.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise
    Speak for yourself.
    hah! okay sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    1) ENFP gets upset about issue and can't process it
    2) ENFP can't state exactly why they are upset and gets upset at themselves
    3) ENFP might rampage a little - ENFP operates on Transmit only
    4) ENFP looks for understanding and feels upset at themselves for not being able to understand why they behaved as they did
    5) If someone doesn't understand what the ENFP is trying to say they then repeat at that person because it has became important. The person may become the target of the angst if the ENFP is getting more upset.
    This is so true. So so true.

  6. #356
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    Hmmm, okay. So the next time an ENFP gets a crush on me Ill direct them to the nearest single intj. It seems more efficient for all involved.

    I have to remember Im an emotard and will never understand emotions as much as a Te user. So it makes sense, since Im totally unaware of human protocol, especially when it comes to emotional outbursts and always will be. *nudge nudge*

  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    Hmmm, okay. So the next time an ENFP gets a crush on me Ill direct them to the nearest single intj. It seems more efficient for all involved.

    I have to remember Im an emotard and will never understand emotions as much as a Te user. So it makes sense, since Im totally unaware of human protocol, especially when it comes to emotional outbursts and always will be. *nudge nudge*
    *fluffles Slow*

  8. #358
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    for me it's being tired... tired me has a 150% greater chance of being totally illogical and emotional. hungry doesn't help either.
    Agreed. If I'm tired, my ability to think clearly flies out the window. But isn't that the same with everyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    don't worry, as long as you promise to try to be patient and understanding then we'll take INTP too
    Definitely. INTX are wonderful, wonderful guys. Perplexing sometimes. Confusing sometimes. But really, really great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    INTPs and ENFPs arguing about agendas?

    It happens so often too. And always leading in the same direction: to some place where the world is free from drama and there are proper ways to behave in public. It's almost like, *gasp*...



    Or to put it another way, if you detect a hidden agenda, it's probably because there's introverted judgment behind the extroverted intuition. (And less than conscious extroverted judgment too.) And if you think you're not doing something absurd in developing your own position, then possibly the ENFPs are not doing something absurd either in developing theirs. But if you view with suspicion your own inner workings, then view theirs that way too.

    Which cuts both ways, of course: if ENFPs are to be liberated from the oppression of too much propriety, INTPs are to be liberated from the distress of too much liberality. Muzzle both.
    In other words, both should stop being annoying shit heads? I agree!

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I think you just want to pick a fight because you feel someone hasn't following your code of proper conduct and may have said something that offends you.

    I don't think you know ENFPs as well as you think. They seek out unique feelings and situations. Sometimes that takes them to places that makes you where you feel embarrassed for how they are behaving. They are unfortunately a specific breed of drama prone individual.

    Now imagine you behaved that way; they are much more embarrassed than you are and they generally just want someone to try to understand and to be non-judgemental.

    Also remember that the reason that they cannot explicitly state what they are wanting to say is because there is some kind of block, be that pride or expectation. Yes, sometimes they expect you to read their mind. You'll never convince them this is unrealistic until they've relaxed; therefore it is a lot easier if you calm them down! Generally I find you can't convince an ENFP of anything if they are stressed or upset or putting a lot of onus on it.

    To reiterate, I've observed the system the following sequence of events.

    1) ENFP gets upset about issue and can't process it
    2) ENFP can't state exactly why they are upset and gets upset at themselves
    3) ENFP might rampage a little - ENFP operates on Transmit only
    4) ENFP looks for understanding and feels upset at themselves for not being able to understand why they behaved as they did
    5) If someone doesn't understand what the ENFP is trying to say they then repeat at that person because it has became important. The person may become the target of the angst if the ENFP is getting more upset.

    This is why I specified that ENFPs simply want someone to listen. Let them tell you everything and then make a judgement after they have said what they want to say and got all that information out. They have a point, they are just stuck trying to specify what it is.

    They want to know that no matter how bizarre their one off behaviour is that you aren't going to hold it against them. Of course there are practical limits, I know that for (some) INTPs those are pretty low when dealing with these sorts of situations just like (some) ENFPs have more self control.

    In terms of productive, it's not supposed to be productive its supposed to be a vent, not productive!
    This post was very insightful. Where have you got such a good grasp on ENFP?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    well, and we really can be quite productive. i'm always on a productive kick an hour or so following outburst. but the Feelings have to be released and processed via Te for me to get to that point. and note that i really prefer being productive. being an emotional storm inside blows.

    it just takes a little patience on the other person's side.



    hah! okay sorry
    Actually, when I'm pissed or frustrated, I become VERY, VERY efficient. Usually an Ausräumung - clearing out - of anything cumbersome in my life. Thankfully, that doesn't include people (whispers: anymore ) but I will clean out all my stuff, organize everything. And everyone would think I'm an ISTJ. Seriously. It's like a form of release and it's great. Or I get really deep into my work.

  9. #359
    Senior Member angelhair45's Avatar
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    So, InvisibleJim how do you know us so well?

    1) ENFP gets upset about issue and can't process it
    2) ENFP can't state exactly why they are upset and gets upset at themselves
    3) ENFP might rampage a little - ENFP operates on Transmit only
    4) ENFP looks for understanding and feels upset at themselves for not being able to understand why they behaved as they did
    5) If someone doesn't understand what the ENFP is trying to say they then repeat at that person because it has became important. The person may become the target of the angst if the ENFP is getting more upset.
    Excellent explanation. I went through this process just last night.
    Last edited by angelhair45; 09-23-2010 at 11:36 AM. Reason: punctuation
    http://bohemianextrovert.wordpress.com/
    Please excuse the long drawn out ramble above.
    I have to hear what I've said before I know what I think.

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  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    This is bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit. I don't think ENFPs have to be approached this way -- like you have to tiptoe around them. If I actually took that message to heart, I'd lose respect for ENFPs.

    If someone can't communicate something, or is saying untrue things about what they're thinking, why should they expect a positive response? They're misrepresenting themselves and they want people to know that. But sometimes they're not misrepresenting themselves. So to put the responsibility of figuring that out on the OTHER PERSON is completely stupid. No one can read minds. If you express yourself in a non-productive way, you are the one creating the problem. Not the person who is listening.

    No one gets to just throw tantrums and expect the other people around them to give in. Most ENFPs completely agree with this.

    I don't think it's productive at all to tell the people around you "hey, I'm going to be crazy sometimes, and it's up to you to figure out when and placate me. if I insult you, don't be offended, except when I actually mean it. Oh yeah, and you have to figure out if I do mean it."
    Some people are worth it.

    edit: Also some people enjoy figuring things out. Its easier to be worth it for these people.
    Im out, its been fun

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