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  1. #171
    He who laughs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    It's not true for me. I'm glad I'm one of the rare NF females that doesn't need to be saved by an NT male's quick non-feelings.

    I need someone to at least try to understand me, not to ...hit me with a stick all the time.

    I get told my feelings are invalid all the time and I'm just good and goddamn sick of it so someone waltzing in and going "quitcherbitching" without even trying to see where I'm coming from would just enrage me. Must I continue to pay for being an NF?

    I think I'm pretty good at realizing my own rut and getting out of it as much as I can. I don't need saving.
    (said in the nicest tone possible) Have you read this thread?

    It is said repeatedly by all "NTs" here that emotions and being upset is totally valid. Its part of being human and we all have emotions and feelings NT and NF. Being NT dont mean dismissal of emotions. And what LL is expressing from her husband is that he just wants to help her calm down and talk things out in a reasonable fashion, where he can actually be a contributor/helper and not just a object to rant at. It does not mean that he's dismissing her thoughts and emotions as invalid. Why would anyone do that? It would be silly and without regard for the other person.

  2. #172
    Senior Member StrawMan's Avatar
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    I didn't read the whole thread, but does this stuff mean in practice that:

    - If an ENFP is stating an opinion of something that is not that important to me, a good way would just let it be known that he is heard, and maybe agree to disagree if it seems that either is going to change one's opinion or really learn more, and
    - when he is stating an opinion of something that is important to me, for example at work, It would be best to disagree in a respectful and nice manner?

  3. #173
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    (said in the nicest tone possible) Have you read this thread?

    It is said repeatedly by all "NTs" here that emotions and being upset is totally valid. Its part of being human and we all have emotions and feelings NT and NF. Being NT dont mean dismissal of emotions. And what LL is expressing from her husband is that he just wants to help her calm down and talk things out in a reasonable fashion, where he can actually be a contributor/helper and not just a object to rant at. It does not mean that he's dismissing her thoughts and emotions as invalid. Why would anyone do that? It would be silly and without regard for the other person.
    Where did you read any of that in my post?
    My post was a response to LL's post and not this whole pile-on cesspool of a thread. I repeat, my post was only in response to LL's post, not the whole thread.

    My point is, if I don't like the way it's said (example: the way LL's husband goes about it is not at all agreeable to me, basically saying/communicating "quitcherbitching" is NOT validation, it's the opposite)- if it doesn't convey at least a smidgen of understanding- I'm not going to like it.
    NTs can be very understanding but in order for it to be effective it has to be communicated properly, especially to an upset/pissed off ENFP.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelhair45 View Post
    I'm like you Vamp, I do not respond well to things like little linguist described at all...

    Sometimes not being understood IS the roadblock for me. It's what is keeping me from being motivated. If they would just shut up and attempt to understand then they circle of error would stop...
    Exactly. What LL described is what I absolutely hate about having to deal with NTs etc., Why would anyone believe that saying/communicating in not so many words "quitcherbitching" is validation? Last time I checked that's the complete opposite of validation. It kind of makes me only want to date other NFs or SFs because that's such total non-communicative bullshit it boogles me mind.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  4. #174
    Senior Member angelhair45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    (said in the nicest tone possible) Have you read this thread?

    It is said repeatedly by all "NTs" here that emotions and being upset is not invalid. Its part of being human and we all have emotions and feelings NT and NF. Being NT dont mean dismissal of emotions. And what LL is expressing from her husband is that he just wants to help her calm down and talk things out in a reasonable fashion, where he can actually be a contributor/helper and not just a object to rant at. It does not mean that he's dismissing her thoughts and emotions as invalid. Why would anyone do that? It would be silly and without regard for the other person.
    You've never encountered this? Really, you think people don't dismiss or invalidate others? I have encountered it all my life and continue to encounter people like this. I'm not just saying NTs. The types that commonly do this to me are STJs, NTPs, and STPs. Why would they do it? Because they don't feel that way so it's silly, unimportant, wrong, or inconvenient. I'm sure there are many other reasons too.
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  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    Where did you read any of that in my post?
    My post was a response to LL's post and not this whole pile-on cesspool of a thread. I repeat, my post was only in response to LL's post, not the whole thread.

    My point is, if I don't like the way it's said (example: the way LL's husband goes about it is not at all agreeable to me, basically saying/communicating "quitcherbitching" is NOT validation)- if it doesn't convey at least a smidgen of understanding- I'm not going to like it.
    NTs can be very understanding but in order for it to be effective it has to be communicated properly, especially to an upset/pissed off ENFP.
    This is rather universal Vamp. You can get almost everyone on this earth to agree with you. In particular me, but its a bit more tolerable aslong they dont attack my intelligence (my weakest spot you can ever push me on). So I totally understand you.

  6. #176
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    This is rather universal Vamp. You can get almost everyone on this earth to agree with you. In particular me, but its a bit more tolerable aslong they dont attack my intelligence (my weakest spot you can ever push me on). So I totally understand you.
    I didn't mean to attack your intelligence. The way things are said makes or breaks the entire situation. The way LL's husband does it seems like the typical dismissal routine people do with Feelers.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelhair45 View Post
    You've never encountered this? Really, you think people don't dismiss or invalidate others? I have encountered it all my life and continue to encounter people like this. I'm not just saying NTs. The types that commonly do this to me are STJs, NTPs, and STPs. Why would they do it? Because they don't feel that way so it's silly, unimportant, wrong, or inconvenient. I'm sure there are many other reasons too.

    It kind of makes them seem selfish in comparison to feelers who tend to gather the emotions of others and come to a conclusion instead of gathering individual emotions and coming to an individual conclusion and demanding the other person adjust.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  7. #177
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    To untangle the mess that is Ne, you need a sounding board, you need to feel like someone can give you a baseline so you can sort out the emotions going through you.
    right. it's a need to hunt out objectivity when things are going apeshit in our heads. our 3rd function is Te, which sends us the FYI that we are not being objective, but the problem with Te is that it cannot be solved internally. it must be used via action. i have discovered that if i write things out, that is a good way of engaging Te too, but to be honest it's much more pleasant to have another person who can offer more support and/or ass kicking than a blank sheet o' Word document.

    but i would never expect that of random strangers, or without exchange. instead, in a close relationship, i prefer that this can be my "take" in the give-and-take. certainly i am more than willing to help the other person in whatever ways they need as well. and, let's face it, an objective and enthused ENFP is much more pleasant and useful than an emo time bomb one, as satine accurately phrased it.


    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    GET IN A FIGHT WITH EVERYONE. THEN HUG IT OUT.


    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    Okay so to say it again, this is valid. But I just think that what the OP outlined is still going to sound egocentric and immature. Not something I understand that healthy ENFPs would be in their communication. But just remember that when you feel upset you might get so focused on your own emotions that you lose touch with reality.
    the OP was - and no offense to wonka, but - strongly and very personally worded. it irks me as well as you. the funny thing, though, is that the OP was also voicing the desire to reconnect with reality. we simply can't do it internally, thus his asking patience in letting us be informative. ENFPs know that we need it, we just have a hard time getting back there because we don't have Ti assistance and Fi is throwing our ability to judge out of whack - unlike in a Te dom/aux where Te can just tell Fi to shut the fuck up until it feels like being helpful again. though the more we develop Te, the more it can help us with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    I'm glad I'm one of the rare NF females that doesn't need to be saved by an NT male's quick non-feelings.
    yeah, brief note to some Ts - because you guys don't use emotions on a regular basis, i think sometimes it's hard to grasp that they can be terribly subtle and very useful on an everyday basis, and not just manifest as tidal waves that mess us up (though to be sure, they can mess us up.)

    the funny thing about Fi in particular is that we really appreciate your wanting to help set us straight, but we need to get over things on our own terms. we really love your support and redirection, but just like you wouldn't appreciate an F restructuring your Ti for you, we don't really have much interest in you telling us how we should be, or devaluing us for our way of being. it is entirely possible to be a reasonable and intelligent ENFP, which does entail being in touch with emotion. someone - maybe satine - has likened Fi to a wild horse. amazing to ride, but what a bitch sometimes. and she needs to be - not tamed - but befriended. if you would really like to help us, then point out where we're going wrong. Ti and Te are awesome at this. but we are not interested in hearing that the things that matter to us, should not. just as you are not.

    that said, lord knows i could learn a lesson or two from your logic and i generally appreciate and admire you and your rationale. nor does this apply to every T by any means. most Ts in this thread have been great when it comes to all this.

  8. #178
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    when you offer your perspective in a non-imposing way.
    This is the difficult part. What is considered non-imposing?

  9. #179
    He who laughs
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelhair45 View Post
    You've never encountered this? Really, you think people don't dismiss or invalidate others? I have encountered it all my life and continue to encounter people like this. I'm not just saying NTs. The types that commonly do this to me are STJs, NTPs, and STPs. Why would they do it? Because they don't feel that way so it's silly, unimportant, wrong, or inconvenient. I'm sure there are many other reasons too.
    I have encountered it all my life aswell.

    But I cant change peoples mind, I can only change how I feel about it and how much focus I want it to take on me. I can continue to bitch about it until the day that I die but it will only make me even more bitter and reclusive than I already am now.

    And yes some people are idiots and jerks, actually I think theres really too many of them out there. But only I am responsible for my own feelings and emotions, I can blame on others that they made me feel this way, but how does that help me?

    And if you know some people will respond in a certain way, why continue the same behavior that will only hurt yourself even more, by engaging them all the time? Its like a boxer that continues to keep their guards down eventhough they get knocked out all the time. Its just as silly as dismissing people.

    What Im trying to say is that I understand what you say, sure there will be people that dismiss my feelings, but then I know and can keep away from them in the future.

    But when people I am friends with or lovers tells me to calm down I dont neccesarily attribute them into the same category as those that I attribute abusive behavior to. Why would I do that? There is feelings of closeness and a long history of them sticking by me so I when they tell me to calm down I respond more casually and know it is for my own good they say such things. And not because they want to dismiss my feelings.

    As I said before communication goes two ways. So I have as much responsibility that the communication is succesful as the other person. As much as that may be hurting my sensitivities.

  10. #180
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    This is the difficult part. What is considered non-imposing?
    haha, sorry, i was editing while you wrote this - i know that was vague. maybe it makes more sense now?

    what i'm trying to get at is that helping us see rationally is awesome, but suggesting changing who we fundamentally are is really frustrating.

    i know the divide between those two probably seems fairly blurry, but i think maybe thinking in situational terms would be helpful. how did the situation logically proceed to me getting so upset? that's what i have trouble figuring out internally, and what i always want to talk about. and what i can do differently next time.

    as opposed to how i have things wrong in general (though if you wanna offer that one to me when i'm calm, that's cool. it's just not gonna help anything when i'm flipping out already.)

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