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  1. #151
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    An addict has certain needs. Is there a no wrong way to treat an addict? This isn't a debate about moral objectivity; it's about the understanding that certain medicines help relieve symptoms and certain medicines exacerbate them or just don't treat them at all.

    This is hardly the same. To untangle the mess that is Ne, you need a sounding board, you need to feel like someone can give you a baseline so you can sort out the emotions going through you. To then be told that *that* is the wrong way of going about it, messes things up even more and causes even more pain...coz that means that you're condemned to that turmoil as the rest has made it clear that your own escape is not acceptable....and that's something that festers, and that acts as a ticking timebomb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Are we talking about venting here? Because I'm fine with venting. I'm less fine when someone is venting about me, TO me, because I can't detach from that situation and not take it personally. But yeah, if an ENFP friend needs to vent to me, I'm not going to tell them to calm down or just breathe or some such patronizing bs. I wouldn't necessarily want someone to vent to me multiple times a day or something, because that would drain me.

    We are. ENFPs need a sounding board, someone who will understand that their rambling is a draft and that helps them untangle the mess in their head. Their head is literally too small at that point to really organize stuff, and it is greatly appreciated that you would help them with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    I'm not sure why people are having such a hard time understanding the OP. The issue here is about language, I think. Let me give you a uh, subpar example with no real content because I'm lifting from old (un)successful conversations and taking out the personal details

    :steam:: blah blah blah
    : well no, that's wrong.
    :steam:: but it just feels like blah blah blah
    : well that doesn't make sense. you have (x, y, and z) and so even being upset about it is pointless.
    :steam:: ....but i do feel upset about it, because (a, b, and c)
    : well alright but being upset about it is stupid.
    :steam:::steam:

    vs.

    :steam:: blah blah blah
    : well now, do you think that's really accurate? because maybe (x, y, z)?
    :steam:: well yeah, but it feels like blah blah blah
    : i'd imagine so.
    :steam:: yeah, i dunno why but it just made me feel so blah blah blah because (a, b, and c)
    : i know it did, but do you think maybe (d, e, or f)?
    : yeah i know. that probably is what's best but i don't know it's just really upsetting and it's hard to think things through properly amongst all the inner turmoil.
    : it's cool, you're ENFP

    that's it! We're approaching our feelings of conflict and being upset by seeking outside stimulation in order to make sense of it all. Inside i'm so all over the place that i need to seek stability from outside, NOT within...at least not until later when I'm able to take all the info I've gathered from others and have cooled down enough to process it all.

    Conversations like the first throw us into further turmoil because it's all criticism and no content; tough love in the form of "get over it" like this isn't usually helpful (there are exceptions, of course).

    Conversations like the second, however, are much more constructive. I'm willing to see my lapses of judgment pointed out to me; hell most of the time it's because i WANT to see them but I can't so I'm seeking out others for an Ne-fest.

    Like Little Linguist mentioned, my process of "thinking things through" is external and this is what I'm doing: seeking out other viewpoints in order to get the bigger picture. It's not about coddling, it's about needing some help seeing through the fog and this is how i do it. Telling me it might be helpful to think about it another way is helpful; telling me "you shouldn't feel upset" is useless because hello, I'm already upset!

    Now of course there is a responsibility on the ENFPs part to walk away from a conversation that is agitating or not helpful; I have to from time to time or it will escalate things and yeah, I don't want that. It's not why I went into the conversation in the first place. but that's not what the OP is about: it's about the OTHER side of the issue and the ideal exchange between an upset ENFP and the lucky other
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    The idea is this, and this goes back to the OP. Just because you want to be heard or because you want to vent, doesn't mean you should. Deciding the best course of action requires that you appreciate the consequences of your course of action. With venting, for example, research shows that venting is not cathartic. It might make you feel better in the moment, but in the long run, it leaves you feeling more frustrated. If you want to feel better, then don't vent. Likewise, as I've argued, muting the community's objections so a poster can feel "heard" is a bad idea; even though it might feel good to one person in the short run, in the long run the community as well as the person suffer. Wonkavision took this for granted and made the same mistake you did, equating feels good immediately ("I want") with wise and intelligent.
    There are occasions where people stay stuck in the anger they express when venting, true. And they keep on venting. That loop is toxic, no doubt. But venting itself is a natural process of figuring things out, ime. Take that away from me and I will collapse, coz it's the only way I can sort things out.




    As to the topic, I will say that it would be wise for an ENFP to have a friend they can do this with, a friedn who understands. Experience has taught me not to do this in a group. Too many people are incapable, unwilling, unqualified and basically uncomfortable with dealing with *that* much intensity. And make no mistake, we are a frigging emo-bomb going off and not everyone knows how to deal with that. Which is natural. We cannot expect others to take care of us like that, just becoz it's something we naturally do with others. That's ludicrous. And to expect a group to do so is...well, setting yourself up for disaster.

    I've found NTJs to be ok with listening, even INTPs are not bad at it, when they know you well enough, and if you truly need to unload, get another NFP, INFPs being the best at this (we tend to be too easily distracted ourselves, I think). NFJs are great, but often have a different method for destressing people than what we need, so it depends on whether or not it works for you. Vent to them and once you're passed the emotions, go and ask for advice from T's as they will be more than willing to help you with that part. But it is not fair to ask them to handle stuff they are uncomfortable with in the first place, so get passed the emo-stuff first. You have a right to vent, and to be heard, but those people also have a right not to wanna go near something that makes them that uncomfortable, and not having to deal with something they aren't equipped to deal with.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  2. #152
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    See you, Wonka

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    why don't you just take a hiatus and come back after a while?


    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    As to the topic, I will say that it would be wise for an ENFP to have a friend they can do this with, a friedn who understands. Experience has taught me not to do this in a group. Too many people are incapable, unwilling, unqualified and basically uncomfortable with dealing with *that* much intensity. And make no mistake, we are a frigging emo-bomb going off and not everyone knows how to deal with that. Which is natural. We cannot expect others to take care of us like that, just becoz it's something we naturally do with others. That's ludicrous. And to expect a group to do so is...well, setting yourself up for disaster.
    Exactly.

  3. #153
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    What on earth is going on here? I mean, I don't understand anything, even after reading this thread. Some other thread caused this?

    It's like 1+2 = -5
    or something.

    I found the tone here quite disturbing.

    Peace man, and women too!

  4. #154
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    What the holy flying carpet tricks bag full of fun in a hand basket up in the attic full of kittens shittin in a mitten is going on in here??????



    You guys went apeshit in my absence!!!!!!! ROCK ON!!!!!!!!! :workout:

  5. #155
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    I feel kind of bad now. My initial not-entirely-serious post seem to spawn this huge debate over the merits of venting. Good grief, that wasn't where I was going with that!
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    My initial not-entirely-serious post seem to spawn this huge debate over the merits of venting. Good grief, that wasn't where I was going with that!
    Nah, you didn't do it. The thread was already a vent, and I think someone had mentioned it as well.

  7. #157
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    That's how you deal with irate ENFPs. They just want your love.

    I don't think ENFPs are so unreasonable, merely that they get upset when others aren't willing to tolerate their opinions, just like other Fi-Te types.

    Besides they need that activity to sort through their emotions and thoughts on issues. It is important to their health.

  8. #158
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    ^I wanted to just say we should hug Wonkavision, but it wouldn't come out right (probably doesn't now either ).

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    I'm not sure why people are having such a hard time understanding the OP. The issue here is about language, I think. Let me give you a uh, subpar example with no real content because I'm lifting from old (un)successful conversations and taking out the personal details

    :steam:: blah blah blah
    : well no, that's wrong.
    :steam:: but it just feels like blah blah blah
    : well that doesn't make sense. you have (x, y, and z) and so even being upset about it is pointless.
    :steam:: ....but i do feel upset about it, because (a, b, and c)
    : well alright but being upset about it is stupid.
    :steam:::steam:

    vs.

    :steam:: blah blah blah
    : well now, do you think that's really accurate? because maybe (x, y, z)?
    :steam:: well yeah, but it feels like blah blah blah
    : i'd imagine so.
    :steam:: yeah, i dunno why but it just made me feel so blah blah blah because (a, b, and c)
    : i know it did, but do you think maybe (d, e, or f)?
    : yeah i know. that probably is what's best but i don't know it's just really upsetting and it's hard to think things through properly amongst all the inner turmoil.
    : it's cool, you're ENFP

    that's it! We're approaching our feelings of conflict and being upset by seeking outside stimulation in order to make sense of it all. Inside i'm so all over the place that i need to seek stability from outside, NOT within...at least not until later when I'm able to take all the info I've gathered from others and have cooled down enough to process it all.

    Conversations like the first throw us into further turmoil because it's all criticism and no content; tough love in the form of "get over it" like this isn't usually helpful (there are exceptions, of course).

    Conversations like the second, however, are much more constructive. I'm willing to see my lapses of judgment pointed out to me; hell most of the time it's because i WANT to see them but I can't so I'm seeking out others for an Ne-fest.

    Like Little Linguist mentioned, my process of "thinking things through" is external and this is what I'm doing: seeking out other viewpoints in order to get the bigger picture. It's not about coddling, it's about needing some help seeing through the fog and this is how i do it. Telling me it might be helpful to think about it another way is helpful; telling me "you shouldn't feel upset" is useless because hello, I'm already upset!

    Now of course there is a responsibility on the ENFPs part to walk away from a conversation that is agitating or not helpful; I have to from time to time or it will escalate things and yeah, I don't want that. It's not why I went into the conversation in the first place. but that's not what the OP is about: it's about the OTHER side of the issue and the ideal exchange between an upset ENFP and the lucky other
    Okay so to say it again, this is valid. But I just think that what the OP outlined is still going to sound egocentric and immature. Not something I understand that healthy ENFPs would be in their communication. But just remember that when you feel upset you might get so focused on your own emotions that you lose touch with reality. And you might be responsible for people reacting against this in ways that might not be what you wanted. Communication is a give and take, which wonka started fine to underline but he lost track of this in the end of the OP by putting all responsibility of the communication on the other person. That is why I concluded that this behavior must have been meant in extreme situations like death and so on. And not regular frustration that we all experience.

    PS what is the difference between venting and expressing frustration btw?

    PSS Yes I still think that everyone needs to express themselves it has never been about it being right or wrong to express oneself. If you think so, you seriously need to learn how to read.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I don't think ENFPs are so unreasonable, merely that they get upset when others aren't willing to tolerate their opinions, just like other Fi-Te types.
    I was trying pretty hard to get him state his opinions and stand up to them on one aspect of all this but if my options are limited to either agreeing with him or shutting-the-f*ck-up I really don't know what else there is to do...

    I mean, how is it supposed to work, this extroverted idea bouncing, if the person is only taking in the thoughts he agreed with in the first place?

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