[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Z Buck McFate]

First of all, Peacebaby: I read your description a while back and didn’t respond right away because I was trying to see if I could figure out what I was missing on my own (especially after I read that you felt Fidelia was being dismissive, my reaction was *somewhat* similar to hers: I had trouble understanding how it was an Introverted Feeling issue over and above being an Introverted issue). Then I got ridiculously behind with the thread. But anyway, in regard to your description (about 100 posts back), I’m pretty close to having a response: which I will come back and post. I haven’t seen anyone else mention what’s been bouncing around in my head about it, I may have fresh insight.

But there’s some stuff I want to respond to now while I’m [almost] caught up (some of which may have already been addressed on this last page, which I haven't read, but doggone it I'm posting now before I wake up and find another 5 pages).

I think you captured the essence there. It can feel like Fe people are deliberately missing the point when they are giving Fi peeps a grilling. It does feel like personal attacks. So we push back in defense, and then that's when all hell breaks lose. And truth be told, I never figured out how to get past that. Because that moment when clarification is asked for , I answer but it seems bring more questions, and all of a sudden it feels like people are trying to open up your head with a can opener, and I will clamp down and batton the hatches, and get the guns out, because you ain't touching ma inner thought processes.

I do want to say that what's been shared about Fe is appreciated. My appreciation usually comes in the form of statements, like this one. What I'm getting back from Fe users is that if I don't ask questions, Fe may feel I haven't been appreciating or paying attention either. If that's right, I will try to ask more questions (as they are relevant to the conversation.) So if Fe asks a lot of questions, Fe is trying to pin down the specific answers of what to do in situation X or situation Y. It doesn't necessarily mean they haven't heard what's been said.

Yeah, actually, lots of questions (the more specific, the better) is what makes me feel like someone is listening. I mean, the value in ‘active listening’- as you’ve described it- is that it helps clear up misunderstandings. But very specific questions are exactly how I usually gauge how well someone understands me in the first place. I’d much rather deal with someone who asks lots of very specific questions than someone following ‘active listening’ protocol, because- not only does it mean the person already understands- it’s how I gauge how interested they are in what I’m saying as well.

It was surprising actually, in reading this thread, that asking questions doesn’t make others feel that way. It’s good to know.

2.) That when Fe users jump in to share opinions all in a big pile, it's to verify what each other is seeing. Poster A: "Those pants are blue". Poster B: "Yes, they are"! Poster C: "Oh yes, that seems right to me." This does have the effect of feeling ganged up on, but, I can appreciate that's not necessarily the intent. One can more effectively validate what is agreed upon. It helps when other Fe users see what they think they see too.

(earlier in thread, but in regard to same analogy) OK I'll accept that. But, it's not as innocuous as that though, is it really?

Actually, it truly is. Voicing what I’m feeling in any given moment doesn’t even begin to be a priority to me. Feelings are so transient that they just don’t matter much to me, not unless I’ve noticed an ongoing pattern and it seems clear it’s going to be an ongoing problem.

5.) Fe users generally feel emotions are not to be trusted or relied upon in the moment. Correct me on that if I've got it wrong.

This:

Very true. It's pretty easy for Fe/Ti to zone in as a third party, because it's like we can observe the dynamic almost like a system, and identify the breakdown. And that's what we trust as Fe users, and why we ask others for their opinions, so we can make sure we're getting an accurate read, and not just reacting emotionally. For Fe users, as others have said, most of us have realized that if we personally act in the moment based on the emotional intel we have, we will usually have missed some piece of the puzzle, causing hurt feelings and tension and fallout we'll have to deal with later. So we call on a third party to tell us if we're reading the situation correctly, if we're personally involved.

I just really hate emo rollercoasters, emotional surprises- and I hate causing them. I doubt my ability to discern how reasonable my anger or negative feelings are while I am in the throes of feeling it- so I want to be sure before I stir anything up by saying something.

Another aspect of it: I don’t like chipping away at my own credibility. I'm guessing this is because Js tend to remember events for longer- and how our reactions towards people are largely based on past experience of them, rather than present moment experience of them. If they cry wolf often enough (getting openly upset, only to retract it later), then I’m going to be inclined to pay less heed to when they get upset. Perhaps this has to do with being so introverted- but I really need people to listen and believe me when I tell them I am upset with them about something. I know the best way to go about this is to reserve such accusations or sentiments until I know they’re founded (so I get feedback from others about whether or not I’m being reasonable).

 

[Fidelia]

Yes, yes, yes! All of what Z Buck wrote!

I am different than say, a T type about my emotions, in that I am very aware of what they are. I have a hard time identifying with some of them who say that they have to remind themselves to think about what they feel about something. I think it's a way of them keeping that part of themselves safe by intellectualizing it or compartmentalizing it, particularly if they are not sure what to do about them. Or maybe they just fall lower on the priority list. Not sure about that.

I just don't place a whole lot of creedence in my feelings because they are too fickle. I wake up in the morning and I feel completely different. Only when they keep reoccurring or are reinforced by someone else's similar ones do I really take a second look at how they should be factored into my actions.

I also feel very similarly to Z Buck. If I raise a false alarm and then seem to get over it all quickly, then I feel like the boy who cried wolf. When I appear to deal with some people impatiently or with very little flex, it usually is a result of past experiences with them or watching them interact with other people.

EDIT: PB, this is another reason why I tend to check in with other people to decide what course of action to take. It's not so much checking to see if they have the same feelings all the time, but when I am in the middle of feeling strongly, I doubt my ability to remain fair or objective. I don't want to unreasonably cause hurt feelings or a mess down the road that was completely avoidable, especially if I may not continue to feel so strongly later on.

 

[skylights]

well, NFPs don't react solely based on emotions either. i think perhaps it's easy to perceive it that way because our emotions and valuation are inextricably linked, but we are not bossed around by our emotions nor do we always react without thinking. instead, we try to utilize our emotions for the information that they are providing us with. though, that is not to say that a sudden tidal wave of emotion cannot seriously throw off our ability to process objectively.

and, before i proceed, the standard Fi disclaimer applies - apologies if i sound overly emotional and pushy or self-absorbed in my writing. i'm still working on learning how best to communicate to Fe without totally losing the ability to emphasize (which i otherwise do through emotional language).

The bonds I form with people are usually based on them having consistent behaviour that shows some form of predictability. If it's predictably bad behaviour but I feel they are good people at heart or have characteristics that outweigh their shortcomings to me, it may be a judgement call for me, but even at that, I'll may well choose to allow some bond, knowing that I can expect bad behaviour and how I can work around it.

I find it more difficult to bond with Fi people because it seems very unpredictable. Fi values are hidden, so it's tougher to evaluate what we have in common. Fi users don't tell me what they think about me the way I do about them (which feels then like it's one-sided like or that they prefer to retain the power in the relationship). They want me to accept their good intentions, but can't promise what result it might have. If they feel strongly about something, no matter how good of friends we are, they may well publicly bring up something negative without any warning. It makes me feel uneasy. Almost never is the gushy good stuff brought up publicly, which leaves others to not see our bond or that in the other times I am valued by them. They don't check in on me when I'm not doing well (I do understand why), they don't probe for more when I've expressed that I'm anything but okay, which is difficult for me to admit (I understand why here too), they need processing time when I share something that matters (which makes it seem like even my problems are all about them and their feelings) and sometimes even react weirdly because it makes them uncomfortable. They have long lapses in communication or just disappear for long periods, leaving me to feel like I did something wrong (I understand it better now so don't feel it personally, but also don't feel like they'll be there for me when I need them most). I feel like I have to walk on eggshells because I never know when something is going to flare up, but I don't even know what I'm looking for. I like definable patterns that tell me where trouble lies. I need to know who close the person sees me as.

So it's not that I don't want to be close, but rather that I feel very lost as to how to be. All of the ways that I habitually express my affection, appreciation and care are felt as intrusive, put them on the spot as to how to respond, or seem like I am calling our relationship into question because I express where I'm at.

wow, fidelia, that's fascinating. and humbling. it's never even occurred to me that half of those things could be confusing or upsetting in a relationship. i guess it's part of being a P that external instability is not an inherently uncomfortable place. i mean, not to say that i enjoy friends who are completely insane (okay only sometimes), but it's less of a concern to me. hearing all of this makes it seem that my very close friendship with a Fe dom is kind of amazing, given all of these potential misunderstandings! and it's why i feel like i'm bending over backwards for her sometimes - i could not see it before but it's clear to me now that she probably is, too. but i suppose it goes to show that if you care enough about a person you will make an effort that is stronger than these divides. is it too cheezy to say that love conquers all?

and, what can i do to show NFJs that i do care about them - that good stuff you're talking about showing externally? do you guys really want gushy good stuff brought up in public? that seems so private :blushing: also, what do you mean by reacted weirdly? lol

i'll make a counter-list to yours for the sake of understanding.

• i find it more difficult to bond with Fe people because it seems very unpredictable. Fe values are kept somewhere in the external collective, where i don't have personal access to them without asking, so it's tougher to evaluate where i stand with you.
  
  
• Fe users seem to rebuke me often for behaviors they don't like, which feels like they prefer to retain the power in the relationship. (holy crap thinking of myself retaining power in a relationship is really weird). they want me to focus on how everyone acts, and often will judge my actions but not care to hear my explanation of intention.
  
  
• if they feel strongly about something, no matter how good of friends we are, they may completely shut me off from themself without any warning. that makes me feel uneasy.
  
  
• almost never will they spontaneously open themselves up to me, which leaves me wondering if we even have a bond or if i'm valued by them.
  
  
• they often try to direct me when i'm not doing well, instead of helping me figure out what's gone wrong. if i ask for explanation they seem frustrated with me.
  
  
• they don't stop to affirm me when i've expressed i'm anything but okay
  
  
• they won't give me processing time when they share something that matters (you guys want questions immediately! i don't even know what to ask about cause i'm still working on figuring out my opinion of the info) which makes it seem like you don't actually care what my opinion really is
  
  
• sometimes they get freaked out when i act a little weird in public. i am weird. so are they.
  
  
• they have a constant need for communication and contact, but then will randomly shut me off or put the ball in my court, which is really confusing, and makes me wonder if they will be there for me when i need it most. (and admittedly, once i was sobbing in my room while my Fe dom friend sat in her room next door with her door locked and her headphones on because i had pissed her off. it wasn't a pretty moment for me - kind of embarrassing, i was having the second-to-worst existential breakdown i've ever had - but she wasn't there for me despite being right next door because she had shut me off completely. later she said she had no idea i was so upset. of course she had no idea... she made her judgment based on an action and didn't even put thought to the possibility i had acted like that because i was hurt and terrified inside.)
  
  
• i wish i could read down the patterns better to see where i'm going to mess up, but maybe that's where you can really help me instead of judging me. i kind of have a vague idea of what's happened in the past thanks to Si but i really usually don't see when i'm heading straight for a train wreck. the key is that i would love for you to explain it to me instead of telling me. telling makes me feel like you're looking down on me. it also really doesn't give me a reason to trust what you're saying. trying to explain - and i do know that's really hard if Ni is anything like Fi - helps me see that you're still by my side, not pitting yourself against me.
  
  
• i need to know how close you are to me too so i know you still care about me even when you act without accounting for how i feel.

i think what really strikes me as so funny is that you see me as dropping off the face of the earth and being inconsistent (and i do understand that), but i have the underlying assumption that you know that i'll be there for you if you want me to be there, even if everything is breaking down for you and you're lashing out. whereas i see you as needing my attention all the time, yet with no guarantee that you won't be shutting me out when i'm at my most vulnerable and want you the most. both sides are totally contradictory, i know. i'm glad to get to this point to be able to understand this and express it without freaking out. the other side still feels weird to me, but i understand the logic. and that's a really good starting point.

here's a question - how do i get through to help you if you shut me out? do you even want me to try to get through, or is that kind of the point of shutting me out? because i lash out, in trying to protect myself, but what i really want is the person to just hug me, or at least give me the word equivalent of a hug. i'm just lashing out because they seem like they would rather hurt me than give me a hug, even though evidently that is not always true. so i wonder if maybe you guys really are doing a parallel thing.

I think that's really the key. If I know that someone is making an effort to consider how their actions affect others, and they're trying their best, but still inadvertently cause a disruption or hurt my feelings, then intentions become important. I can also learn to speak their language and meet them halfway. If it feels like a person's own emotional comfort is the only consideration they've made, and they haven't considered how they might affect others, I'm less concerned about their intentions. Especially if it happens over and over.

yeah, exactly. that's a good way of putting it. that's what i was getting at with figuring out when Fi is needed and figuring out when Fe is needed.

I definitely see where active listening can help someone feel heard, but it doesn't feel like a natural conversation to me. It feels like a self-help book, and it gums up the flow of interaction. I've heard it recommended as a marriage counseling technique, and all I can think is, if every convo with my husband involved him saying, "I think you just said x. Am I understanding you right?" I would want to hurt myself and him. It would feel like a relationship with one of those automated voice thingies the phone company uses. I think it can be helpful to some, but to others, it becomes irritating.

haha yeah me too. i would go insane.

One phrase a lot of Fi users seem to use a lot is, "Can you expand on that a bit, please?" I think I'd rather be asked a direct question about what a person's not getting, rather than be asked in a more generalized way for more thoughts. That may be why the Fe style can feel like an interrogation. To us, we're showing interest by showing you we're engaged enough that our Ti wants to know more, specifically, based upon our understanding of what you said already. (that was a convoluted sentence, sorry)

ah, that's good to know. yeah, i think the reason i ask broad stuff is because i want you to tell me what you think is important. you asking me pointed questions about something different than what i was getting at without acknowledging my point makes me think you didn't get my point at all - or, worse, you got it, and really just don't care. is it better if it's phrased "so what struck you the most about that situation?", or something similar?

No one here is saying fidelia doesn't try. I guess I feel like the questions keep coming without any evidence that what was said before was heard or understood.

That feels overwhelming, you know?

I need some evidence or feedback to answer new questions. Otherwise I feel like I'm just building a house of cards.

yeah, exactly. and i think it should be pretty obvious to any Fi or Fe user that fidelia is trying.

anyway i don't know if you're on the same page with me or not - and i also don't know if you really want to keep hearing me or not. Fi users are really interested in not imposing on one another - it's kind of like we give one another space by default - and if i don't hear any confirmation back from you then one, i don't know whether you have understood what i'm communicating, and two, i don't know if you want to keep hearing it. with another Fi user, they usually relate back a similar something about themself and then nudge the conversation in a slightly different direction. that shows me that they understood my point and also care to keep our exchange going. i'm not saying that this is what everyone should do, but it's kind of my assumption of how things should normally operate. i talk about me; you see a connection with me and talk about you; i see a connection with you and talk about me...

Fe is, after all, what we culturally see and interact with every day. Sometimes here on the forum, I want to "let my hair down" and just express a question in a natural way for me. But it's naive of me to think that interacting on the forum is different than the real world.

yeah. i feel this too. i understand wonka's frustration in the ENFP thread because he was looking for affirmation and trying to help others (and yes, he was defensive and lashing out, there's no denying that), but that was not at all what he got. in the NF forum - much less an ENFP thread - i expect that i will at least have others around who understand what i am going through and who are immediately willing to affirm me for me (not necessarily how i'm behaving, but my thoughts) and relate. that was the last thing wonka got and i felt my frustration build alongside his. for all the font size he used, he was still not being heard. there seemed to be little effort to understand and a lot more condemnation.

and i'm not saying he shouldn't have gotten a message to chill out - he needed to chill out - but there was no affirmation of hey you and what you're saying are valuable. and, because there was a consensus of people not saying it, he left. and it's not just about being personally valued - it's about whether or not everyone else wants you here too. why stay if you're not personally benefitting and no one really wants you around anyway? PB, tell me if i am misinterpreting here, but i thought i understood a similar (if much more tame) pattern with you in this thread. there felt like there was an unspoken consensus that no one cared to understand what you were trying to communicate, and there was a tangible undercurrent of frustration towards you from multiple people, thus the feeling that maybe you should just leave.

and i don't mean to imply that the ENFP thread blew up as it did because of NFJs - not at all, there was a huge mix of bad type interaction going on in there, with some plain old bad interpersonal interaction too - but i see now patterns that are related to Fi and Fe miscommunication. and i am quite sure that i have done my share in frustrating and letting down some NFJs by seeming not to try to understand them either. and not that saying sorry here can repair that, but for what it's worth, i am sorry that i may have hurt you, especially realizing now how much i could have changed to better to meet you where you were.

so anyway, do Fe users really feel the same way about Fi? it's really weird to me because i, too, feel like Fe is default interaction, if only because Fi tends to do its own thing unless it feels infringed on, whereas Fe is all up in the social sphere.

Wow, post edits are going nuts in this thread! Getting this stuff right/accurate/authentic seems to be really important to people.

dude, i'm sorry, you admins must see about a thousand post edits from me a day. i nitpick and re-edit like no other.

So again, here's the "I'd come across as meaner without filters" and a kind of implication of "you wouldn't be able to handle my emotions if I expressed them all." Those statements may well be true, but that represents a very different assumption than the one I tend toward.

haha yeah... well and, really, if you ever do have huge emotional torrents that you need to get out and would prefer to have someone around, it's probably not a bad bet to find a Fi dom/aux(/tert). we're kinda used to it.

This is great, too! I usually feel like adults aren't pavlovian (even though we all are in some ways), and to orient things around "reinforcing good behavior and negatively reinforcing bad behavior" is likely to backfire. If carried out on a surface level, it can be like those "motivational" posters, which never fail to make me feel first oppressed and then subversive.

yeah, honestly, it's a little creepy to me. my Fe dom bff is the master at this and it's weird because i'm sure she uses it on me. i mean, and that's kind of okay, she's up front about it and i find it kind of funny, but it's weird too. and sometimes i feel like you think you're doing me a favor by training me without my consent - that somehow you've figured out what's best for me and you're going to go ahead and act on that, regardless of whether i'm interested. with my friend, i'm not too uncomfortable about it, because i really trust her. but it's scary to me if i don't trust you and you're doing that to me.

my Fe dom mom - ESFJ - doesn't really do this, though she still is more action than intention oriented. i just feel like she judges more based on how i've acted before and comparing that to how i am now (which is consistent with Si), and that gives her more insight into what my current intentions may be, based off what they generally have been in the past. i feel more comfortable with this because it's more of a basis for judging that i can look at too and agree or disagree. Ni is in the future, so it's not like there's anything i can look at or talk about unless you explain it to me. i have to just blindly trust that you are doing what is good for me, and that's a bit scary.

That's an important part of my identity, so being told "it doesn't matter" is hard to hear. My natural inclination is to believe that "with good intent, understanding and perseverance a good result is assured." (Makes me roll my eyes to state it like that, have to admit.) Sometimes I think INFPs are so interior that we feel like once we've got things aligned internally, we're mostly done and the external action is just an niggling detail.

and ENFPs, geez, we're masters of external chaos. have you ever seen an ENFP in a crisis situation (as in, something external going wrong)? we're ON POINT. i see everything outside of me as fairly chaotic all the time so crises are no big deal. it's like everyone else is freaking out and to me it's just a slightly more intense version of normal. ESFPs too. and i think it's part of why ENTPs can make really amazing lawyers. the downside of this, of course, is that we downplay the importance of our own actions and how they can play a part in leading to consequences.

PB what you did up there is one way that I think you can make a Fe user feel listened to. Summarize what you are taking away from it and ask more questions!

this is good info. and actually! interestingly i think this is how it goes with one of my Fe dom friends on chat all the time. she'll tell me a mini-story, i'll probe for info, and that leads us to the core of the problem. the questioning is a little awkward for me but it's become an automatic thing because even though i think that i would get tired of all those questions she doesn't seem to mind. that's cool. i guess they're validating for her, even if they seem kind of straying from the point for me.

In return, would you say that thanking the person for putting themselves out there and then not bombarding with more questions is what works best for you? What form of listening actively would allow us to carry on the conversation without making you feel grilled? (Aw crap, I'm doing it again!)

i really don't mind if you ask a few questions. if it's a really emotionally charged/ revealing conversation, then some kind of affirmation of me or my contribution or of the Fi core of what i said (how i felt, basically) is reallyyy appreciated, and then go ahead and ask away. but maybe not in that like fire 1, fire 2, fire 3 style? interspersing them a bit with explanations of how you see things would be really helpful. it helps me understand your question better (like, explain to me why you are asking that?) and gives me something to bounce off of.

sorry you lost a whole post written out too, fidelia. that really sucks.

 

[Kalach]

I just don't place a whole lot of creedence in my feelings because they are too fickle. I wake up in the morning and I feel completely different. Only when they keep reoccurring or are reinforced by someone else's similar ones do I really take a second look at how they should be factored into my actions.

That's interesting, a very clear outward orientation on the judgment aspect of feeling, and a distinction between feelings of the moment and judgment. (Or did I read into it wrong?)

I wonder what Fi people do. They don't (necessarily) have someone else inside themselves to reinforce feeling of the moment and move it toward being a judgment.

 

[Fidelia]

Wow skylights, that was awesome! I'll need some time to read and re-read!

Yeah, I think you described it Kalach. I mean, my feelings in the moment may be very strongly negative or positive. However, usually I don't feel comfortable unless I've figured out why I feel the way I do. As more information gets factored in, sometimes my feelings about the situation change.

I have a hard time deciding at what point it is best to disclose how I am feeling. Sometimes I tend to wait too long, but like Z Buck said, I don't want to chip away at my own credibility or raise false alarms.

 

[Seymour]

First of all, I definitely agree with much of skylight's counter-list above. It's funny how both sides feel the other is unpredictable and difficult to trust. I do want to stress that it feels like (to an Fi-dom) that we're held accountable to Fe rules that we either don't know, or when we do know them they seem to make little sense and are impossible to keep track of—much less carry out consistently!

well, NFPs don't react solely based on emotions either. i think perhaps it's easy to perceive it that way because our emotions and valuation are inextricably linked, but we are not bossed around by our emotions nor do we always react without thinking. instead, we try to utilize our emotions for the information that they are providing us with. though, that is not to say that a sudden tidal wave of emotion cannot seriously throw off our ability to process objectively.

Exactly! (More on this below.)

That's interesting, a very clear outward orientation on the judgment aspect of feeling, and a distinction between feelings of the moment and judgment. (Or did I read into it wrong?)

I wonder what Fi people do. They don't (necessarily) have someone else inside themselves to reinforce feeling of the moment and move it toward being a judgment.

(Just a brief disclaimer... below I'm trying to capture some of the subjective Fi experience. I'm over-empahasizing some things to try to capture the subjective truth.)

So, it's clear we Fi doms (or NFPs) have a different relationship with our emotions. In another thread I compared our relationship to emotions as being a little like going through the day with a relatively well-behaved pet by your side. You know your pet well, and you know it reacts to things that you may not consciously perceive. It's entirely possible for your pet to become unruly or distracted ("Squirrel!"), but mostly it functions as a second set of eyes and ears. In a way, I feel a certain amount of affection for my emotional state, because it does almost feel like having a companion throughout the day.

So our emotions function as a constant barometer that is always providing some feedback. Our feelings are often the result of all kinds of subconscious judgment. Our emotions aren't always "right"— for example, just because I feel irritated at someone doesn't necessarily mean anything about that other person. Maybe that person has similar mannerisms to someone else, and the association is triggering the feeling. Still, one never feels things "for no reason." There's always a trigger, an association or a subtle judgment that sets them off. Fi helps you monitor your emotional state, so when that state changes it's a reason (for an INFP, anyway) to ask "why?" Over time, you get to know what causes changes in your emotional state, and then you can react accordingly. In fact, you eventually use that self-knowledge to manage your own emotional state.

So, perhaps some of the above helps explain why NFPs sometime tell others "I'm perceiving you are feeling X." There's (from our perspective) likely important information somewhere in that feeling. Your not managing it is a bit like having to sit next to someone who is ignoring their barking dog or crying baby. It muddies our own emotional awareness, because we're distracted by data from you that we have to try to ignore. When you say, "I'm not feeling X" (which we have to trust, because we can't really know your emotional state), it means we have to go forward having to consciously keep ignoring that ongoing perception.

Oddly, it seems like the flip side of the NFJ "I'm upset with you because you are ignoring how your actions are affecting others and you are cruising for disaster." It can be on the order of "You are failing to manage your internal emotions, and that unacknowledged emotion is going to eventually hurt you and the people around you."

Now, before people get upset, let me say I totally agree that Fi perceptions of other people's emotional state can be way off base. It's not emotional telepathy, and it depends on reading lots of subtle cues correctly on a subconscious level. We can be (and often are) wrong. I think we are wrong more often about the target of other's emotions. While I may be right that someone is irritated, I can easily be wrong about the target of their irritation, mistakenly thinking they are irritated at me.

And, even when we are correct about the emotion, it's unhelpful to try to force others to deal with emotions they are working hard to ignore. To an NFPs, ignoring emotions seems like a very foolish strategy... like choosing to wear a blindfold so you don't have to look at your messy house. Other people don't see it that way, and we have to learn to respect that.


So, to finish answering Kalach's question, I think that over time we build up a model of what is true and what is not in Feeling terms (just like a Ti-user does in Thinking terms). We refine our Feeling model as new data comes in. Our values arise by adjusting our model of values as we attempt to live them. I think Fi development is particularly difficult, because it's much harder to validate Fi externally. The Je functions judge externally and can be verified externally. Ti can use theoretical models, express them and have them double-checked logically. Fi, though, cannot generally be detached from its context or validated independently. The end result is that we end up having to do things the hard way individually as we learn. External validation is more on the order of emotional support, because the other person can't really validate or invalidate one's own Fi judgment.

In the Fe sense, every Fi person is his or her own culture with its own internal consistency. The most others can validate it to say "given the limited amount I can know of a foreign culture I can never visit, that seems reasonable to me." Given the inability to judge specifics, about the only thing you can judge is intent.

(Additional disclaimer: in the real world, clearly good intent is not enough and it's appropriate to judge things other than intent... but that's a hard won lesson for NFPs)

 

[Fidelia]

Thank you! This is the kind of thing I've been looking for. Your analogy helps me better understand what you are talking about. I especially liked the part about someone else ignoring their emotions muddying up your own ability to monitor your own. The description of it being akin to the distraction caused by someone ignoring their barking dog or crying baby was very helpful in explaining to me WHY it mucks up the ability to pay attention to what you are feeling, which is what really didn't make sense to me before.

Lots more to think about here. Will be back...

 

[the state i am in]

i'll have to read the thread to catch up on the threads being discussed, but with regards to one thing i saw posted in this thread, i think it's important to note that the sense that you never understand the Fi of Fi users so therefore have trouble being close to them is highly contingent on what your relationship quality is, how much your values actually do intersect, and how long you've known each other.

with most of my infp friends, i know where many of their passions lie bc many of them intersect. those passions are there for reasons that may be somewhat different, but which prompt the building of trust, further inquiry, reasons to share your viewpoints and how you relate. a lot of times it's based on art/culture representations that allow us to find and discover and articulate our values in artifacts in the world. trying to interpret them, share why we find them meaningful, etc. they don't as often explicitly link specific works to their own story for us, but they're providing so many pieces that give you a sense of the outline of their interior. sure, it's partial, but to act like ours isn't is kind of a misnomer. we will disclose for a purpose, but then we will not disclose other things when they would get in the way of our purposes. tossing out all of their inner messiness doesn't seem to help Fi users organize themselves, nor does it help them seem to feel understood in most cases. instead, it usually seems to make them feel more misunderstood, because their experiences are so implicitly organized, complex, and difficult to grasp in the way that they shape themselves into gradients, values, prioritizations, and a kind of tentative dance with overlaid embodied ideas that give expression to their chaos, but which are extremely difficult to define/narrow down into more strict correspondences.

worse yet is the sense that Fi is being judged when the context, the story, and the personal significance that contributed to the overall kind of complex aren't really understood. i think the non Fi interpretation can feel like a kind of empty behaviorism to Fi, which also needs to realize that holistic fuzzy overall reading system snapshots aren't really the only guiding motivational factor for action, decision, motivation, and the murky territory of the term "authenticity." if integrity means a state of constant wholeness, discernment of values from the absolute top to the absolute bottom of the food chain, then Fi can be the only authentic function. but the limits to that project should show that there are other ways for systemic integrity (vs Fi integrity) that don't rely on impossibly big decisions/judgments at all times/wrestling with EVERYTHING all at once. the Fi project can learn to not only accept inner conflict between competing values and Fi understandings, but to generously offer their own form of faith to others to help support them in all of their own conflictedness/dissonance, which is a kind of confidence that results from advanced Fi coming into its own by working in conjunction with a wider range of cognitive supports.

i think the way Fi users learn to mediate their own Fi chaos and handle the demands of Fe users/non-Fi types has a lot to do with their overall systemic health, how Ne expands their recognition of possibilities that might provide a better long-term, overall result (and that generally produce a more open person). and it seems that Si helps add more precision to the Fi reasoning process so that more specific details can be linked in order to create tighter expressions of Fi via Ne's embodied ideas, which helps them take a more active role in the communication process and more proactively create understanding/redundancy of their experiences in others (when they want to and when they have a good reason to do it).

 

[Fidelia]

I've been rereading through this thread a bit more. I realized that there is one thing that I need to articulate. I can see during the heated part of our discussion, PeaceBaby, that you really felt that I not only did not trust you, but that I didn't like you either. That is not the case, and I didn't want for you to go on with any question in your mind about that.

I think for me, people are let in to my world by degrees. The more closely our values, interests and communication styles intersect, the more that process is expedited. Sometimes I express something and it is mirrored back to me very differently that the message I thought I was sending out. That sometimes makes me feel like the other person didn't get me or that I do not adequately understand them. Therefore, sometimes it takes some time of repeatedly seeing how I interact with someone, developing some history with each other, seeing how they interact with others and getting a more well-rounded picture of the person before I feel close to them.

Whether or not I feel close to someone though, I usually start at the default position of liking them and having basic respect for them. Implicit trust comes with more time. It is only if something happens that really makes me question what kind of person they are (no integrity, violent etc) that I would move from that default position of being favourably disposed towards them. Even at the worst of times, I could see that you truly did want to help. I could also see that you were investing huge amounts of personal emotional energy into explaining and I appreciated that.

What I am beginning to understand is that when there is frustration (I was trying to get tools to better communicate with you, but didn't feel like we were getting anywhere) on a Fe user's part, it is more likely to be felt as being more personally directed to the Fi user than it in fact is intended or felt.

I don't know if that makes sense, but for what it's worth, I thought I would try to clear that up...

 

[Ivy]

So, it's clear we Fi doms (or NFPs) have a different relationship with our emotions. In another thread I compared our relationship to emotions as being a little like going through the day with a relatively well-behaved pet by side. You know your pet well, and you know it reacts to things that you may not consciously perceive. It's entirely possible for your pet to become unruly or distracted ("Squirrel!"), but mostly it functions as a second set of eyes and ears. In a way, I feel a certain amount of affection for my emotional state, because it does almost feel like having a companion throughout the day.

YES. A thousand times yes. I would add that there's affection, and there's also exasperation at the pet's constant companionship. It can be exhausting and inconvenient. I can make a conscious decision to leash the pet for a time, but I do so at my peril. It's going to be back there whining the whole time. And for me, if there are going to be tears, there are going to be tears, and there's simply nothing I can do about it. This has not served me well in academic and professional zones.

So our emotions function as a constant barometer that is always providing some feedback. Our feelings are often the result of all kinds of subconscious judgment. Our emotions aren't always "right"— for example, just because I feel irritated at someone doesn't necessarily mean anything about that other person. Maybe that person has similar mannerisms to someone else, and the association is triggering the feeling. Still, one never feels things "for no reason." There's always a trigger, an association or a subtle judgment that sets them off. Fi helps you monitor your emotional state, so when that state changes it's a reason (for an INFP, anyway) to ask "why?" Over time, you get to know what causes changes in your emotional state, and then you can react accordingly. In fact, you eventually use that self-knowledge to manage your own emotional state.

True. I have learned over time not to disregard the guts. I don't always give them top billing, and I may come to a conclusion that they are mistaken by using outside evidence, but I never just shut them out them anymore. Inconvenient and overwhelming though they may be at times.

Have you read Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift of Fear"? It's a wonderful book about protecting yourself and teaching your children to protect themselves from violence by using their intuition. He says that people often become victims of violent crime after ignoring their gut feelings about someone. When you get a gut feeling about someone, we tend to want to reason our way out of it- "I'm not being fair, he hasn't done anything wrong yet," etc. I'm wondering if what he calls intuition is really Fi. I've spent a lot of time reasoning with Fi, but in my 30s I've come to simply regard it as information coming in. Granted, sometimes it does really lead me down the wrong path, but other times, that gut feeling has really served me well.

So, perhaps some of the above helps explain why NFPs sometime tell others "I'm perceiving you are feeling X." There's (from our perspective) likely important information somewhere in that feeling. Your not managing it is a bit like having to sit next to someone who is ignoring their barking dog or crying baby. It muddies our own emotional awareness, because we're distracted by data from you that we have to try to ignore. When you say, "I'm not feeling X" (which we have to trust, because we can't really know your emotional state), it means we have to go forward having to consciously keep ignoring that ongoing perception.

Oddly, it seems like the flip side of the NFJ "I'm upset with you because you are ignoring how your actions are affecting others and you are cruising for disaster." It can be on the order of "You are failing to manage your internal emotions, and that unacknowledged emotion is going to eventually hurt you and the people around you."

YES. Oh my goodness Seymour. Can I just hire you to be my personal translator? I have said those very words before, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Fidelia]

I don't know if gut feelings are universally the same, or if there are Fe and Fi versions of them. I do know that as I've gotten older, I've come to trust that they are there though to protect us, as you said, Ivy. It used to be that until I could say why I had that feeling about someone, I felt like I was being hasty in not giving them a chance. I've finally learned that if you get those back of the neck prickles about someone, it's for a real reason, even if you don't know what it is yet. I wonder if we pick on up body language or patterns that are not consistent with what we've come to expect on an unconscious level, long before it registers consciously or if it's something else that provokes that reaction.

I like that illustration of feeling being like having a pet along with you all the time. It also helps me better understand why Fi users insist something is awry, even if they can't explain it. It's the equivalent of their dog barking and barking. Whether or not they can see the squirrel or hear the high pitched noise or see the source of danger, they are assured that something is setting off that response in their pet.

 

[Ivy]

I don't know if gut feelings are universally the same, or if there are Fe and Fi versions of them. I do know that as I've gotten older, I've come to trust that they are there though to protect us, as you said, Ivy. It used to be that until I could say why I had that feeling about someone, I felt like I was being hasty in not giving them a chance. I've finally learned that if you get those back of the neck prickles about someone, it's for a real reason, even if you don't know what it is yet. I wonder if we pick on up body language or patterns that are not consistent with what we've come to expect on an unconscious level, long before it registers consciously or if it's something else that provokes that reaction.

I wonder that, too. We had a recent harrowing occurrence in our church where a member of the vestry was caught sexually abusing his son in an FBI sting operation. The guy had always given me the creeps and so I avoided him, but I had no evidence for doing so beyond that feeling (which one of my daughter's teachers calls "the uh-oh feeling").

I don't think it's the case that Fi users have better quality gut feelings or anything like that. Doesn't everyone use Fi? I wonder if those gut feelings are Fi for everyone, but Fi doms are just less capable of ignoring them. As adults I think we need to learn to question them more, where other types might need to learn to trust them more.

I like that illustration of feeling being like having a pet along with you all the time. It also helps me better understand why Fi users insist something is awry, even if they can't explain it. It's the equivalent of their dog barking and barking. Whether or not they can see the squirrel or hear the high pitched noise or see the source of danger, they are assured that something is setting off that response in their pet.

Yep! I remember one time as a child, a friend's mom was having an affair while her husband was away (he was an over-the-road trucker). The guy would come over and watch TV with us during the day when I was playing there. It felt incredibly wrong and bad to me, even though I was only about 9 and had no idea what affairs even were at the time. I didn't even know what sex was, to be honest. But I had a HELL of an "uh oh feeling" about that guy and that situation, and I was incapable of hiding it- I remember being sent home for being "rude" because I mumbled something derogatory about him under my breath.

 

[Fidelia]

This is another thing I've wondered about. There seem to be several schools of thought on functions. Some describe it as only having the four that your personality encompasses. Those are the basic combined viewpoints that form the lens through which you see the world and by which you organize information.

Function tests appear to indicate otherwise, although I end up getting different results whenever I take them. I also have thought that as we matured and understood other ways of processing information maybe our approaches change slightly. Although certain functions may not be completely what our natural eyes would see when we look through them, maybe they are like reading glasses or 3D glasses which can be temporarily put on and used when the situation calls for it.

What do you think?

 

[Ivy]

I tend to think everyone uses all the functions, with varying degrees of comfort.

 

[Fidelia]

well, NFPs don't react solely based on emotions either. i think perhaps it's easy to perceive it that way because our emotions and valuation are inextricably linked, but we are not bossed around by our emotions nor do we always react without thinking. instead, we try to utilize our emotions for the information that they are providing us with. though, that is not to say that a sudden tidal wave of emotion cannot seriously throw off our ability to process objectively.

Yes, of course! I think the difference between us is that Fe users have less trust in their emotional objectivity and so need to check it against someone else just in case their feelings are clouding their perspective a lot. You folks seem to have a lot more grounded sense of steady emotion than I think we do because you arrrived at it differently. You trust it more.

and, before i proceed, the standard Fi disclaimer applies - apologies if i sound overly emotional and pushy or self-absorbed in my writing. i'm still working on learning how best to communicate to Fe without totally losing the ability to emphasize (which i otherwise do through emotional language).

You do terrifically well. Whatever you're doing, it seems quite effective to me!

wow, fidelia, that's fascinating. and humbling. it's never even occurred to me that half of those things could be confusing or upsetting in a relationship. i guess it's part of being a P that external instability is not an inherently uncomfortable place. i mean, not to say that i enjoy friends who are completely insane (okay only sometimes), but it's less of a concern to me. hearing all of this makes it seem that my very close friendship with a Fe dom is kind of amazing, given all of these potential misunderstandings! and it's why i feel like i'm bending over backwards for her sometimes - i could not see it before but it's clear to me now that she probably is, too. but i suppose it goes to show that if you care enough about a person you will make an effort that is stronger than these divides. is it too cheezy to say that love conquers all?

Yeah it's surprising from both angles. I'm beginning to better understand basic Fi needs after several in depth one on one conversations with ENFPs and INFPs. It still feels unnatural to me because the ways in which I would normally show appreciation and want to see it are ways that do not resonate very much or which seem stifling. Being aware of it is the first step though for me.

and, what can i do to show NFJs that i do care about them - that good stuff you're talking about showing externally? do you guys really want gushy good stuff brought up in public? that seems so private :blushing: also, what do you mean by reacted weirdly? lol

Hmm. See until discussing it in an ESTJ thread (over frustration with my boyfriend at the time) and then also in an INFP thread, I never realized how embarrassing and uncomfortable a lot of Fi users find praise to be. I tend to do for my bf what I would have loved for myself. I was very surprised later to realize that those expressions were not only kind of meh to them, but made them feel put on the spot. I realized I would have been better to make them something tasty, do some kind of a job for them or bring over a plate of cookies that I had made myself. While I would recognize the gesture itself as valuable if someone did that for me, verbalized expressions of where our relationship was at, how they feel about me, what they appreciated about me, even hearing second hand praise come back to me or a gift that answered one of my needs or secret wishes would have made me feel more secure in their love. I don't like PDA, but at the same time, someone being appropriately affectionate with me in public is a way of them telling those around us how they feel towards me. It's entirely possible that that has something to do with the love languages thing, but I notice some trends in the Fe-Fi divide that make me wonder if it's deeper than that.

Some things that make this Fe person feel secure, valued or appreciated. Not sure how much is me, INFJ or Fe generally, so Fe people, feel free to add/disagree/clarify:

A card saying what you like about the person and why (I quite honestly don't see a Fi user feeling comfortable doing this because they'd find it forced or fake).

Telling someone else something positive about the person (preferably not in their presence). There's nothing nicer to hear than good "gossip" about yourself from another person, as long as it is sincere and not just a technique (not usually an issue with Fi people!)

Asking them questions and encouraging them to talk about themselves. They often try to do this for others, but are very rarely asked to do so themselves. Ask further questions about anything you don't understand or that seems interesting.

Show interest in their ideas. Go at it the same way as the previous point.

A gift like the person's favourite chocolate bar or something else that would be a pleasant surprise in answer to their wants/needs or that would display some understanding or knowledge of how well you know them. Doesn't have to cost anything. Little notes are good too. This works even in platonic or family relationships.

Seeing that the person is tired, stressed or overworked and looking for how you can help bear their load. Even someone helping to bear the emotional part of it (and not add to it) is so useful. You know how sometimes you feel your emotions are muddied by others not dealing with theirs? I feel the same if someone is acting moody around me but doesn't make it clear that it's not in response to me. Sometimes I also feel responsible to try to make the situation better too. I don't want the person to be fake, but deciding how your outward emo expression will affect an already stressed or overburdened at crucial times is very helpful. Much like it doesn't occur to us that you would take frustration personally when it's not about you, I think sometimes Fi users don't realize that Fe takes outward negative emotional reactions personally. It makes them feel very uncertain and responsible to fix the situation.

Listen to venting without making it about yourself or a solution. Just be sympathetic until they turn a corner. Ask questions about what they vent about. Do not be the devil's advocate or try to get them over those feelings before they are ready. Realize that their frustration is completely unrelated to you.

Notice when they need help, rather than waiting for them to request it. They don't want to impose and they only want you to do it if it comes out of care for them and from your heart, rather because they've made you. It's sort of their way of trying to be polite, even though they sometimes will feel hurt or annoyed if you consistently don't do anything that seems like you are trying to show consideration or care for them.

Remember who the important people in their lives/day are. Not caring about stuff like that feel like you don't care about them or don't listen to what is important to them or affects them most.

Visit them when they are sick. Even bringing them a hot drink or something to read etc is very appreciated. This runs counter to what you feel is respectful and good, but mostly a little imposing yourself on them in times of sickness or stress (without expectations) makes them feel cared for. (Obviously, you have to know the individual. Some INFJs for example are much more uncomfortable about people dropping by their space without sufficient warning or permission. I am a more social INFJ, and would welcome it).

Showing care or affection for them in public is usually appreciated, depending on the situation.

Give credit where credit is due, and if it's suitable to do so publicly, go for it. (This also runs counter to what you feel is respectful. Of course you don't want to put peopel in an awkward situation, but making them look good in front of others, as long as it is sincere or they are honestly deserving is usually appeciated).

Tell the Fe user directly what you need from them to feel better. Fe tries to take action all the time (much like Te always wants to solve the problem quickly). If you need space or processing time, explain to the Fe person that they could help you so much simply by doing ______ , _______, and _______ which would give you the time alone you need to deal with the overload. They will leave you alone much better if you show them they actually ARE doing something good by giving you time alone. (This seems obvious to you, but it truly isn't to us. I think it's the same way that we forget to verbalize how helpful it is when you just listen to us. It seems so obvious that it almost seems weird to state it). Because Fe often looks to others in times of need, it sometimes feels hurt that you don't. This, I'm sure feels like we're making it all about us, just like we accuse you guys of doing. Explaining your different style of processing verbally is sometimes very helpful. Fe just really wants to be useful to other people and protect and care for them (even when it bumbles into trouble or annoys you. The motivations are good, just not always the method!).

When a Fe user is going through something, do the opposite of what you usually would prefer. Some kind of physical expression of affection or care (without being fake or oversolicitous), encouragement to vent and not leaving unless the person says they need to be on their own usually goes over fairly well.

EDIT: It sounds like I'm hung up on you doing everything publicly. I at least like those things in private too. I just want to know that the people close to me love me and are pleased to "claim" me as theirs because I very naturally tend to do that with people I care about. It says I'm not ashamed of them, that I'm on their team, that I'm proud to be associated with them. When they don't, it feels kind of like I'm giving that to them and they're playing it cool and so what people see is my enthusiasm and their seeming (possible) indifference. It makes me feel not sure how they feel about me, especially if they don't really express it directly in private either. Nice gestures are good, but I also need to hear it.

Even when I admire someone, I am likely to tell someone else how I feel about them if their name comes up and say why. It's not so that it will get back to them, but because I just want to share such awesomeness with another person so they can experience it too. Sort of like raving about a great book or movie and why you like it.

Well this is part one. I have to go out, so will send before I lose all this. You had lots of great points in the second half of your post though that I would like to respond to as well. Thanks so much for being interested in asking! More to come...

 

[Caerulea]

As an INFJ married to an INFP, I've learned a lot from this discussion. Even the argument-ish parts of the discussion have helped, although they look enough like our own arguments, in form rather than detail, to make my stomach tie up in knots.

The following comments are not to argue with Seymour at all, whom I have come to respect through his posts. Instead, I'm more amazed at what he expresses, particularly in the first point, because what he expresses here is also so unfamiliar - and I'm not even a very strong J.

So, it's clear we Fi doms (or NFPs) have a different relationship with our emotions. In another thread I compared our relationship to emotions as being a little like going through the day with a relatively well-behaved pet by side. You know your pet well, and you know it reacts to things that you may not consciously perceive. It's entirely possible for your pet to become unruly or distracted ("Squirrel!"), but mostly it functions as a second set of eyes and ears. In a way, I feel a certain amount of affection for my emotional state, because it does almost feel like having a companion throughout the day.

So outside my experience... As an INFJ (although, usual caveat, I may be the only INFJ that feels this way), I feel like my emotional state is more like a dragon that has to be chained and locked away, or I'll never get anything done. I have lots to do and people to take care of - work, house, kids, older relatives, husband, friends, etc. The dragon strength emotions aren't useful as a source of information because there isn't anything I can change about the negative situations that cause those emotions. The only thing I can control - in fact the only way I can express myself and my own values - is through my actions. Hence the INFJ (for me, at least) emphasis on actions.

So, perhaps some of the above helps explain why NFPs sometime tell others "I'm perceiving you are feeling X." There's (from our perspective) likely important information somewhere in that feeling. Your not managing it is a bit like having to sit next to someone who is ignoring their barking dog or crying baby. It muddies our own emotional awareness, because we're distracted by data from you that we have to try to ignore. When you say, "I'm not feeling X" (which we have to trust, because we can't really know your emotional state), it means we have to go forward having to consciously keep ignoring that ongoing perception.

This is a source of friction between me and my husband. He can tell I'm upset, and he would like to "fix" me - both to make me happy and to remove this muddiness for himself. However, if the "fix" doesn't work, then, on top of the emotions I had in the first place, which I have to let, at least partially, out of their chains to even have a conversation about them, I now have to also pretend to be fixed!

There are times when I have to point blank tell him that I need to discuss an emotion, but I don't need it fixed. I need to work it out in my own time. Reading the Fi posts here helps me understand why this is difficult for him.

And, even when we are correct about the emotion, it's unhelpful to try to force others to deal with emotions they are working hard to ignore. To an NFPs, ignoring emotions seems like a very foolish strategy... like choosing to wear a blindfold so you don't have to look at your messy house. Other people don't see it that way, and we have to learn to respect that.

I used to be able to blow off lots of steam through intense workouts. I could shrink the dragon to a lizard. Since my knee injury, that hasn't been possible (I'm still hoping for the future). Therapy? I end up listening to the therapists' problems and views. There really isn't much I can do to deal with the large negative emotions right now.

Even though the emotions are large, though, I can shut them away for a time. I can look away from them, like today, and do something my younger son wants to do, or, at other times, invite neighbors over for dinner, even though all I really want to do is sit and stare at the wall. The thing is, by emphasizing the actions, I may find that I, eventually, enjoy what we're doing and actually change my emotional state - at least for a time.

I also have to say, after reading back through this and feeling like I'm a real downer, that although what I'm discussing here are the negative emotions, the positive ones are just as large, and I wouldn't give up the negative ones, regardless of how large they are, for fear I would lose the positive ones.

 

[skylights]

hot damn this thread moves like fire!

I wonder what Fi people do. They don't (necessarily) have someone else inside themselves to reinforce feeling of the moment and move it toward being a judgment.

right, and that can make things hard sometimes. today i wanted to clean my room, but the reality was i really needed to throw things out. and that's theoretically okay with me - i don't mourn a lack of stuff in my life - but when i go through things everything reminds me of something and i see it's importance in and of itself and with certain things that are very nuance-laden it's really hard to weigh whether it's okay to throw them out or not. like, i'll want to, but i feel a value obligation to hold on to things because they hold meaning for someone, and even if it's not me, i want to respect that meaning. but, i asked my mom for help, and suddenly the task became much, much easier, because i would ask her, is this okay to throw out? and she would say, of course! and i suppose that seems rather lame, but the flipside is that i can see value in everything. and of course i didn't figure why having her around helped me so much or exactly what she was doing that was being helpful until later - i kind of made the realization gradually - but it was clear, external affirmation of my judgment.

of course if i didn't have mom around to help me, it's possible i'd get emotionally overwhelmed by the sheer amount of stuff entailing associations eventually and just go into Te-steamroller and throw nearly everything out. i dunno if other NFPs like minimalist, open rooms, but i really do. i love decorations and whatnot but there is something about a minimalist, or at least clean and organized, room that is really peaceful to my mind.

I do want to stress that it feels like (to an Fi-dom) that we're held accountable to Fe rules that we either don't know, or when we do know them they seem to make little sense and are impossible to keep track of—much less carry out consistently!

yeahhh it's really confusing and then we get socially chastised and... well i think that's part of why this idea of a whiny emo who hates everyone exists. you might as well whine and declare the (collective) world hates you when you keep trying and failing and all the evidence you can gather points to rejection of you

So, it's clear we Fi doms (or NFPs) have a different relationship with our emotions. In another thread I compared our relationship to emotions as being a little like going through the day with a relatively well-behaved pet by side. You know your pet well, and you know it reacts to things that you may not consciously perceive. It's entirely possible for your pet to become unruly or distracted ("Squirrel!"), but mostly it functions as a second set of eyes and ears. In a way, I feel a certain amount of affection for my emotional state, because it does almost feel like having a companion throughout the day.

So our emotions function as a constant barometer that is always providing some feedback. Our feelings are often the result of all kinds of subconscious judgment. Our emotions aren't always "right"— for example, just because I feel irritated at someone doesn't necessarily mean anything about that other person. Maybe that person has similar mannerisms to someone else, and the association is triggering the feeling. Still, one never feels things "for no reason." There's always a trigger, an association or a subtle judgment that sets them off. Fi helps you monitor your emotional state, so when that state changes it's a reason (for an INFP, anyway) to ask "why?" Over time, you get to know what causes changes in your emotional state, and then you can react accordingly. In fact, you eventually use that self-knowledge to manage your own emotional state.

So, perhaps some of the above helps explain why NFPs sometime tell others "I'm perceiving you are feeling X." There's (from our perspective) likely important information somewhere in that feeling. Your not managing it is a bit like having to sit next to someone who is ignoring their barking dog or crying baby. It muddies our own emotional awareness, because we're distracted by data from you that we have to try to ignore. When you say, "I'm not feeling X" (which we have to trust, because we can't really know your emotional state), it means we have to go forward having to consciously keep ignoring that ongoing perception.

perfect. though i've never seen my emotional states like a pet, lol! i'll have to start using that analogy. i always kind of visualize it as a kind of ocean that my self lies in. sometimes it's terribly turbulent but it's hard to immediately know if that's from the hurricane raging outside of me or from the earthquakes going on within me or from some other source entirely

i think it's important to note that the sense that you never understand the Fi of Fi users so therefore have trouble being close to them is highly contingent on what your relationship quality is, how much your values actually do intersect, and how long you've known each other.

yeah. i totally agree! and i do understand that it must be hard to deal with each Fi one by one. with each new person the game is changed. but i think that's part of why NFPs tend to give space - like, tend to only talk about themselves, by default - because we have this awareness that everyone's internal rules are different, and hidden, and we don't want to infringe upon them. just as Fe reveals more with growing closeness in the relationship, i think Fi feels more open to prod more and eventually even make decisions for the other person, which is otherwise very unnatural to us. i have learned that choosing tailored gifts for my FJ friends and family is very important as a gesture, but it's hard for me to decide what they might want for them. i've learned to kind of look at their overall style and "match" something, but i still feel uncomfortable making decisions for them. i love gift giving tons, but with FJs it comes with an added pressure because i know there is going to be a tangible LOVE or ugh when it comes to opening my gift. whereas with FPs it's usually like OH YAY PRESENTS! and maybe the gift kind of sucks but they still appreciate something about it. though i have to say, when you score giftwise with an FJ, you score big. it's like risk and reward, lol. the reward is greater because the risk was greater.

tossing out all of their inner messiness doesn't seem to help Fi users organize themselves, nor does it help them seem to feel understood in most cases. instead, it usually seems to make them feel more misunderstood, because their experiences are so implicitly organized, complex, and difficult to grasp in the way that they shape themselves into gradients, values, prioritizations, and a kind of tentative dance with overlaid embodied ideas that give expression to their chaos, but which are extremely difficult to define/narrow down into more strict correspondences.

well, but you see, to me it's not messiness and chaos, so there's no reason throwing it out would help me. yes it's gradients and associations and fuzzy things like that, and sometimes can be very, very turbulent, but it always has rhyme and reason. sometimes i'm not immediately sure of what that rhyme or reason is, but i do trust it. what does help me is to cross-check it externally, via Te.

but i do love your wording about the tentative dance.

but the limits to that project should show that there are other ways for systemic integrity (vs Fi integrity) that don't rely on impossibly big decisions/judgments at all times/wrestling with EVERYTHING all at once.

right, i agree with you here. and it's a pet peeve of mine that Fi users like to claim the right to authenticity. i joked that it was a logical fallacy for anyone to be inauthentic because they cannot be anyone but them in another thread, and i got pounced on by some very serious NFPs concerned that i did not understand the layers Fi sees, lol.

and i really think Te plays a huge part in chilling Fi out, for ENFPs at least.

What I am beginning to understand is that when there is frustration (I was trying to get tools to better communicate with you, but didn't feel like we were getting anywhere) on a Fe user's part, it is more likely to be felt as being more personally directed to the Fi user than it in fact is intended or felt.

this is very true, fidelia. it's confusing to a Fi user to be getting signals of emotion but having the other person be indifferent to those signals. and i do understand that removing emotion allows for logic to proceed purely, but it's very odd for me to feel this emotion emanating out of another when they interact with me. and Fi can mess up and take it very personally. i've been doing that with my NTP dad for years. he's frustrated about something and then speaks to me in the frustratey voice and i am like asl;kdjf;seu!!!! WHY are you treating me like this?!? what i miss is that he is not meaning to direct that emotion at me, but then it becomes a global fail because he does get pissed off at me for accusing him of something he did not feel. and that is totally legit. and he didn't choose to internalize the emotion - but he was projecting it.

I can make a conscious decision to leash the pet for a time, but I do so at my peril. It's going to be back there whining the whole time. And for me, if there are going to be tears, there are going to be tears, and there's simply nothing I can do about it. This has not served me well in academic and professional zones.

haha whining is such a great way to describe it. it tears at you until you're finally just like WHAT!?!? and yeah, me too, about crying. i am actually really not much inclined to cry, but when i get REALLY angry, it is almost certain there are tears to follow.

i'm gonna get that fear book. sounds neat.

I don't think it's the case that Fi users have better quality gut feelings or anything like that. Doesn't everyone use Fi?

i wonder if we don't each use the introverted function that we possess to assemble these gut feelings. because every person does seem to have them. i can easily see Ni and Fi reading them, and Si too, based off of past creepers, and Ti as well, based off of reading subtle clues all around that all add up to a bad situation. and maybe it's a combination of all of these.

I tend to think everyone uses all the functions, with varying degrees of comfort.

not that i am an MBTI expert, but this makes the most sense to me as well.

 

[Fidelia]

Strangely enough, Caerulea, I feel comforted to know that you identify with the way the discussion went and recognize a familiar pattern. That gives me hope that if we can crack where our different viewpoints lie (between NFP and NFJ especially) it can end up doing a lot of good for all of us in our relationships with others.

 

[Salomé]

I do dislike when I'm read wrong, aka assigned a motivation/intent I did not have, when I hurt someone's feelings. My response is to take back what I've said/written, because obviously there was a communication failure. But with Fi-users that doesn't seem to work very often, because the misidentified intent still remains and I'm unsure how to correct that. As a (weak) Fe-user it's like a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't-trap.

Fi-users are better at discovering hidden intent than other types. Esp NFPs. They are unsurpassed in this regard, IMO. That's why they make great therapists. They probably DO know your intent/emotional state better than you do. In fact, hidden motives are often quite apparent to others - it is only the self that they are really hidden from (ego defense mechanisms).
Didn't you recently call Wonka out for having a "hidden agenda"? So even weak Fe-users aren't entirely blind to motives that lie beneath the surface.

It's almost always pointless for a Fi-user to insist on their interpretation of hidden motives though - since the other person is too invested in not consciously allowing such an interpretation - otherwise they wouldn't bother hiding the motive from the self in the first place. Mature Fi users will help the other person come to a realization on their own. That's a great and rare gift.

As for take-backs, no, they don't mean much. Once something has been said, it cannot be unsaid. Once done, it cannot be undone. Personally, I can forgive people over and over, but there comes a point where apologies become meaningless - if the person repeatedly acts in the same way and refuses to address the underlying issue, they are not sorry. Being sorry implies remorse. Continuing on the same course implies no remorse. Actions speak louder than words to Fi users - again it's intent, not content.
It's hard to cross the line with a Fi user, (if you're in, you're in) but once you have, there's often no way back.

• i find it more difficult to bond with Fe people because it seems very unpredictable. Fe values are kept somewhere in the external collective, where i don't have personal access to them without asking, so it's tougher to evaluate where i stand with you.
• Fe users seem to rebuke me often for behaviors they don't like, which feels like they prefer to retain the power in the relationship. (holy crap thinking of myself retaining power in a relationship is really weird). they want me to focus on how everyone acts, and often will judge my actions but not care to hear my explanation of intention.
• almost never will they spontaneously open themselves up to me, which leaves me wondering if we even have a bond or if i'm valued by them.
• they often try to direct me when i'm not doing well, instead of helping me figure out what's gone wrong. if i ask for explanation they seem frustrated with me.
• they don't stop to affirm me when i've expressed i'm anything but okay

• I identify with a lot of this. Actually, I've come to realise that I don't think it's possible for me to bond with a non-Fi user. I feel connected to someone to the extent that we share our deepest values in common, without that, there can only be the most superficial of relationships.

True. I have learned over time not to disregard the guts. I don't always give them top billing, and I may come to a conclusion that they are mistaken by using outside evidence, but I never just shut them out them anymore. Inconvenient and overwhelming though they may be at times.

I have a problem with trusting my gut, even though it has never been wrong yet. I'm a good judge of character, yet I still often end up learning the hard way, because Ti discounts the impressions provided by Ne/Fi and insists on a rational explanation for any course of action. I wish I knew how to get past that...

 

[skylights]

fidelia's list of how to care for a Fe user

holy CRAP is that helpful. like, i can't even express how great that is. once it's affirmed/slightly edited by others i will print it out and tack it to my board.

okay and now i have a quick question for Fe users. about questions, lol.

so is it affirming to you if i type some initial reflections of my own about what you've said, and then ask you questions to clarify? because that is how things come more naturally to me, if i am making an effort to ask you questions. i don't want my questions to be empty; i genuinely want to translate my Fi communication into things that are good for you... so it's hard for me to rapid-fire questions back like yall tend to do - mine would be mindless, and i think you deserve better - but is it okay to question after i reflect, or does that come off as me being self-absorbed for a while and only afterwards thinking about you?

i will be back with questions about that list i am sure. lol.