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  1. #81
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I can't do anything "no matter the cost," because my pockets aren't that deep. I count the cost and evaluate. And I guess I tend to call the law rather than stand up and argue. In the case of the unsafe workplace, I would have talked to the manager privately, then if I had no satisfaction, I'd have filed an OSHA complaint, and if I got fired on top of that, a lawsuit for unlawful termination.

    I have campaigned for things and won before, but I have done it within the system, and unobtrusively.

  2. #82
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I can't do anything "no matter the cost," because my pockets aren't that deep. I count the cost and evaluate. And I guess I tend to call the law rather than stand up and argue. In the case of the unsafe workplace, I would have talked to the manager privately, then if I had no satisfaction, I'd have filed an OSHA complaint, and if I got fired on top of that, a lawsuit for unlawful termination.

    I have campaigned for things and won before, but I have done it within the system, and unobtrusively.
    I should have taken pictures, really. Some of that is "live and learn" stuff. No cell phones or digital cameras back then!

    The funny part is how reasonable to me it seemed, like - buy some ladders that attach to the shelving.

    Who would have thought it would have come to being "let go"?

    It seems insane, doesn't it?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #83
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Again, I am wondering why the assumption here is that I or other Fi users are not being diplomatic.

    [...]

    Z-Buck, why are you assuming I don't know how to use Fe tools? I am perplexed by this. I can see Fe rules and I observe Fe rules in order to make life easier for myself, even if I feel curtailed by them from time to time. I guess I didn't expect to feel inhibited by them so much here on the forum, but I do. See, when you break Fe rules you get ostracized. And I don't want to be ostracized, so I try to work within the systems. IRL, I am friendly and smooth and can get along with nearly anyone.

    But there are times when you must go further than that, you have to put your a** on the line (so to speak) and stand up for the right. Does Fe ever feel like that? That for a matter of honor they must go against the established order and stand up, no matter the cost?
    I don't think fidelia or ZBuck were necessarily implying that you don't use Fe tools when you need to...or at least I didn't read it that way. I think they were probably thinking about your example + times when they've run up against a Fi user that bucked the system rather than working within it. Still in the realm of hypotheticals, since we don't know your actual situation.

    I definitely do feel like sometimes there are times when you have to put your butt on the line and accept the consequences. I think Fe usually tries to work within the system (allowing others to save face and feel good about their contributions), but then when/if it's clear nothing is happening, we have to decide whether or not the message is worth the upheaval. When it is, such as in issues of human rights, we'll rock the boat and damn the cost. It probably won't be all Norma Rae or anything, but I would maybe find a higher up and do some whistle blowing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks for your reply here too Tallulah ... great stuff.

    @ bold, absolutely. Probably most of the time actually.
    Yeah, this is kind of the discussion I've always hoped to have about this stuff--where it leads to actual understanding rather than 'NO YOU.'

    Does sitting on your Fi always feel stifling, or have you just sort of accepted it? I think at this point in my life, I've kind of accepted that there are many places where my Ti isn't welcomed with open arms.

    I would see through it too, but I would go a step farther, knowing not only that she's doing it more for her, but then I will have to play the Fe game and reciprocate or else I'll get in "trouble" with her. I find that ... distasteful I guess.
    Oh, you can sort of playfully let her know you know what she's up to. With friends, I might say, "So, you don't want to go, huh?" With a kind of playful wink. Other times I'll just straight up tell her that no, I do want to go. And then she usually has to fess up that she really doesn't. The same friend sometimes likes to build a coalition to rally support for her personal ideas. This is another example of Fe in overdrive, to me--she wants me to abandon my own thoughts/view of the situation so that she will have more support for her idea. She'll try to convince me, but ultimately, she expects support because I'm her friend. It doesn't work that way for me. I'll support you, but I have to agree with what we're doing. I've had to explain that a whole bunch of times, and yeah, it does kind of feel like I'm in trouble with her. In those cases, it doesn't matter--I don't like her trampling on my right to think the way I think.

    It's like, I will watch an Fe user in action, and I see how others are being directed, like a dance, and sometimes when the motives are impure, I find that crosses over into manipulation. That's the part I have trouble with. I admire Fe doms and aux's really ... they can effectively work a group towards a common goal. Be sometimes, the wires get crossed and people become the means to the Fe user's end, towards a personal agenda. That's what I object to most.
    I agree with that--I try not to use Fe for a personal agenda, but I do see people doing it. It's very distasteful to me. In those cases, I'm often the person that stands up to the Fe user, trying to break the spell he or she has cast.
    Something Witty

  4. #84
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's like, I will watch an Fe user in action, and I see how others are being directed, like a dance, and sometimes when the motives are impure, I find that crosses over into manipulation. That's the part I have trouble with. I admire Fe doms and aux's really ... they can effectively work a group towards a common goal. Be sometimes, the wires get crossed and people become the means to the Fe user's end, towards a personal agenda. That's what I object to most.
    Since when were ISFJs, for example, doing that? Some might try to overly accomodate people, at worst - so much that it hurts me a bit to see it, and I feel like encouraging them to relax (which they won't.. my advice has never really worked.. no matter how persuasive I tried to be. Interestingly though, in both cases, we're using Fe).

    That said, I've definitely crossed the line in a one-to-one sense (years ago, and I've beat myself up enough for things I did as a teen. I'm not excusing myself, but it's really not worth mentioning). For the most part though, I just feel similar to a Fi dom (or exactly that.. I'm not sure). I'm fairly low key. Except, I communicate more than Fi it seems. I don't know anything about my F being enigmatic or hard to describe. I'm not exactly on the same sort of quest for self-realization as INFP either. So I figured I was Fe. I usually prefer to keep to myself like any introvert, but when I'm out, I talk, tend to take care of people's feelings or concerns, and help them from time to time. It's kind of simple. And I'm sure Fi can come about to some of the same things, in a different way. What am I missing here? I feel like I'm not living up to my god given powers to behave like a charismatic debutante

  5. #85
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I don't think fidelia or ZBuck were necessarily implying that you don't use Fe tools when you need to...or at least I didn't read it that way.
    Thanks for that; it does feel like I'm being misunderstood a bit, but I can appreciate that it had likely a broader context than just me.

    Yeah, this is kind of the discussion I've always hoped to have about this stuff--where it leads to actual understanding rather than 'NO YOU.'


    Does sitting on your Fi always feel stifling, or have you just sort of accepted it? I think at this point in my life, I've kind of accepted that there are many places where my Ti isn't welcomed with open arms.
    it does ... like you, I feel like there are many times where Fi expressions are unwelcome. Either no one is interested, or someone will try to shut you down. So, I keep most stuff in my own head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I agree with that--I try not to use Fe for a personal agenda, but I do see people doing it. It's very distasteful to me. In those cases, I'm often the person that stands up to the Fe user, trying to break the spell he or she has cast.
    It is like a spell; I know a very charismatic and altruistic ENFJ, and he literally can work magic in a room. Mostly for good. In a recent situation though, I felt he's crossed over to the dark side ... we'll see how that all works out. I spoke with him but I don't know if I made as strong an impression on him as I wanted to. Sometimes as an introvert I feel this kind of discussion is so energy-draining I have to be careful not to burn out.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    When Fi Went Awry: Backstory- This guy treats women like they are objects. He's basically molested a few people at the workplace, and seems to intrusively flirt with every girl who works there. And no one does anything about it's he's the manager's son. Every time I see him do something like that I just have to clench my fists and shake my head to hope I don't do something... but that didn't quite work at one point.

    He's even worse outside of the work place; with the flirting and molesting. Because he can't get fired. He ran his hand up a friend's thigh, and no one did anything about it. And so I've had that in mind whenever I see him. Said friend nearly broke her leg at a party and he was there, drunk off his ass, annoying her and being a prick. She saw him at a local event, and he brought it up to me- "So I saw someone I think is a mutual friend of ours." (he's being careful because I'm pretty sure he understands how I feel about him). And I said "yeah, the one you downright molested, and who you annoyed at a party a few nights ago when she almost broke her leg and you were drunk off your ass. Yeah I know the friend you're talking about. *glare*"

    Then he just kind of looked at me in a shocked way. Kind of funny, ever since then I haven't been on the schedule with him; and he hasn't spoken to me since. Good riddance, I don't want to get fired over beating him up.

    Why Did Fi Do That?: Why? Because I wanted him to understand what he puts people through. How he's totally selfish and a complete moron. He needs to grow the fuck up. He's just living in a fantasy world right now basically; wherein he can do whatever the hell he wants.

    Also I had some anger building up; and I didn't want to do anything really rash. So I just had to express it in that way; had to take some action, make an impact. I try to refrain from physical violence, but sometimes it just really doesn't work. So this is my attempt at suppressing those emotions. Yay for Se.

    And, the outcome? He was just kind of shocked, and one of my coworkers did an "OH SNAP" and started laughing. Wasn't much of an outcome, except he's been avoiding me.

    What was Fi’s justification for doing what it did? The justification? Again, he's a terrible person who molests and violates women (both verbally and physically). He's an idiot... ugh. Could go on and on.

    How Were Others Inconvenienced? : He sure wasn't feeling that great for the rest of the day, otherwise no one else was really affected. I don't really care though, I'm glad he didn't feel very good.

    Comments: I can see how this would get me in trouble. But meh. I would rather be who I am to the fullest extent, so long as I don't get a criminal record.
    Ha ha. Right on. I don't think that is Fi gone awry - I think that's Fi gone right.

    I love to do stuff like that to people - subtley confront them, or say something that's "way too honest" in an even or condecending way - if I get frustrated that no one else is handling the situation. I think it's good and right to do that sometimes. I don't believe in controlling other people, but there's a point when enough is enough, and a lot of people just won't do anything about it because either A) they are afraid (either truly afraid, or just socially afraid) or B) they don't care.

  7. #87
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    It is like a spell; I know a very charismatic and altruistic ENFJ, and he literally can work magic in a room. Mostly for good. In a recent situation though, I felt he's crossed over to the dark side
    ... we'll see how that all works out. I spoke with him but I don't know if I made as strong an impression on him as I wanted to. Sometimes as an introvert I feel this kind of discussion is so energy-draining I have to be careful not to burn out.
    This is why I can't watch Oprah anymore. I used to love her. She had a platform that she used for good. She talked about stuff that mattered, for the most part, and she built a following that trusted her. I used to like the "Remember your spirit" stuff, because I felt like it was kind of an oasis of calm and peace amidst all the other crap on television, especially afternoon television.

    Then a few years ago, it was like she figured out that she had an army of devotees, and she let her celebrity and money go to her head. Now, I feel she uses her influence to feed the Oprah brand. It's all about her and getting credit for the good she does, and talking about her celebrity friends and the stuff she can buy. And no matter what, her followers remain devoted. I can't stand the sight of her anymore. I think if you have that sort of trust with people, you have the responsibility to use it wisely.
    Something Witty

  8. #88
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Since when were ISFJs, for example, doing that? Some might try to overly accomodate people, at worst - so much that it hurts me a bit to see it, and I feel like encouraging them to relax (which they won't.. my advice has never really worked.. no matter how persuasive I tried to be. Interestingly though, in both cases, we're using Fe).
    Hmm yes, the ESFJ and ISFJ dynamic is different! I would say yes, I am thinking more of the NFJ's with your quoted example.

    I think for Fe / Si & Si / Fe, it's about what's "right" and about the way things "should be" - as defined by Fe external standards and the Si remembrances of they way things always were. Their exertions in the group will trend to maintaining that sense of connection to our roots, about caring for each other in a manner that they see is agreed upon within the community. They are not about the dance so much as about the march, the continual effort and caring that moves forward towards the goal of supporting the things they feel passionate about.

    (Please correct that if you feel it's "off"; I am musing out loud more than actually knowing.)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #89
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Ha ha. Right on. I don't think that is Fi gone awry - I think that's Fi gone right.

    I love to do stuff like that to people - subtley confront them, or say something that's "way too honest" in an even or condecending way - if I get frustrated that no one else is handling the situation. I think it's good and right to do that sometimes. I don't believe in controlling other people, but there's a point when enough is enough, and a lot of people just won't do anything about it because either A) they are afraid (either truly afraid, or just socially afraid) or B) they don't care.
    I've fought plenty. Like I said, I don't think Fi and Fe types could be all that different. I'm not sure what's so Fi or Fe about Blackcat's behavior anyways. Values vs Other People's Needs. What's the difference? Is Fe really about taking care of the general environment's/status quo's needs, regardless of right or wrong? Being "afraid" of that? I don't think so. Fi and Fe are one in the same in a case like that. And yes, I agree, he wasn't going awry.

  10. #90
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I can only speak for myself, but incongruity feels like a loss of integrity to me. My beliefs and my attitude and my actions have to be congruous or I can't stand myself.
    This is where I’m stumped. How is it incongruent? I mean, incongruity feels like a loss of integrity to me too- which is why I made a point of including that my principles stay intact and I’m forthcoming about them while presenting the additional argument of why someone else would benefit from my idea. Dunno. I’m trying to understand if there’s something incongruent about that, because if there is- I’m missing it.

    Of course, I could have ignored it or spoken to him privately to diffuse the situation - but I didn't want to diffuse it. I wanted it to blow him the fuck up and stop him doing it to anyone else. And it worked.
    Actually, I doubt I could have remained civil to a scumbag like that even if I really, really wanted to. I'm not that good at deception.
    And often not wanting to rock the boat or cause a scene is nothing more than cowardice. There is nothing inherently noble about getting on with everyone.
    I probably should have been more specific earlier when I said I definitely always care about social niceties. It was in reference to getting into a disagreement with a friend- and where the ‘truth’ of the matter is still a bit ambiguous. When someone systematically demonstrates a style of discourse in which they don’t really listen to the other person’s argument- but rather direct their energy towards picking the other side apart, and display no interest in actually finding a common resolution- that's the kind of behavior I was attacking. I find it pointless to even try to talk to them.

    In situations like the above though, or even BC’s account- where there’s no doubt the person has crossed the line, and I never had any loyalty invested in them in the first place- I feel no inclination to be on harmonious terms with them. It comes back to the congruency- if I don’t like someone, or especially if I feel disgust towards them, I make no pretenses about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Again, I am wondering why the assumption here is that I or other Fi users are not being diplomatic.

    So are we differing on what we mean by the word? When I say I am diplomatic, it means I will take your feelings into account before I respond. That I know people have sensitivities to certain topics and comments and I will take them into consideration too. If it means I take all that data and orchestrate and advance everyone together to achieve some goal, then no.

    The hubs then said, "You're a mediator. You can hear everyone's POV and find the commonality, without your own agenda getting in the way." That's not exactly a diplomat I suppose. Is that the tripping point here?
    It’s possible the tripping point here is that there are different gradations of diplomacy. Even the character House uses a modicum of diplomacy; it would hardly be possible for anyone to get along with other people if they had no grasp on it at all. I’m just trying to get a handle of the Fe/Fi divide, and if there are maybe different standards for each. It seems to me like Fe users tend to use it a bit more, or at least a slightly different brand of it, and that it’s perceived as manipulative or something by Fi types. I could be wrong about that though, which is why I’m asking. Like I said, I’m just trying to get a handle on it.

    Z-Buck, why are you assuming I don't know how to use Fe tools? I am perplexed by this. I can see Fe rules and I observe Fe rules in order to make life easier for myself, even if I feel curtailed by them from time to time.
    I’m not sure how you got this^ from what I wrote. (edit: just saw what you wrote, but I wrote this earlier) I was just earnestly asking if adding breadth necessarily meant compromising depth somehow. I’m really just trying to understand how Fe is stifling.

    I mean- social mores are stifling to me sometimes. I resent when I’m expected to adhere to rules because someone hasn’t put much thought into what they consider ‘thoughtful’ behavior. As I pointed out in the beginning, I think many Fi types misconstrue some Fe expectations as being mindless- when they’re actually just trying to create an environment where Ti can breathe. Whether or not the expectations I’m expected to adhere to have an understandable reason behind them (versus their existing simply because ‘that’s what people should do’) has everything to do with whether or not I respect them. I’m really trying to understand if there’s some way in which Fi types typically feel even more stifled than I do, and I’m trying to understand how. That’s where my questions are coming from.


    But there are times when you must go further than that, you have to put your a** on the line (so to speak) and stand up for the right. Does Fe ever feel like that? That for a matter of honor they must go against the established order and stand up, no matter the cost?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I think Fe usually tries to work within the system (allowing others to save face and feel good about their contributions), but then when/if it's clear nothing is happening, we have to decide whether or not the message is worth the upheaval. When it is, such as in issues of human rights, we'll rock the boat and damn the cost. It probably won't be all Norma Rae or anything, but I would maybe find a higher up and do some whistle blowing.
    Yeah^. I get annoyed all the time by the way people treat each other. It’s just that I always gear my reaction towards getting the result I want. I don’t feel like it’s enough to simply say something, not if I can figure out a way to present the problem which will- at least in part- remedy the unfairness or injustice I perceive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I agree with that--I try not to use Fe for a personal agenda, but I do see people doing it. It's very distasteful to me. In those cases, I'm often the person that stands up to the Fe user, trying to break the spell he or she has cast.
    Agreed. Distasteful is a good word for it, as is spell.
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