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  1. #851
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Default How Fe can effectively deal with Fi run amuck

    ^^^^
    I think CzeCze is spot on here. When an Fi user expresses their Fi in a socially (inappropriate / clueless / tactless / honest with no fake Fe BS) kind of way, this usually has nothing to do with the people surrounding the Fi-user. Or perhaps, more correctly, if it rocks the social boat then this is not necessarily intentional. In fact, it's probably almost never intentional.

    What you have to remember is that when push comes to shove, Fi is about speaking the truth. A young Fi user may not even realize why their truthiness (thank you Mr. Colbert) causes such an uproar. Your friend may have been puzzled by your irritated response. From her perspective, she was just telling you how she felt.

    The above explanation, of course, doesn't excuse whinyness and immaturity. Most Fi users would not deliberately want to bring down the mood of a room full of people. For example, it is an important Fi value to me that I make everyone around me feel comfortable. So I work very hard at being aware of other people's feelings. But when I was in my early 20s I needed to practice this a lot to get it right.

    Let me suggest another way you could have responded that perhaps would have satisfied you both in that you would have acknowledged her feelings (important to Fi) and still expressed your exasperation and rectified the situation. I think the key for Fe users when communicating with Fi users about an Fi driven behavior that the Fe user has a problem with, is to remind the Fi users of how what she is doing violates her Fi values. For example, instead of publicly rebuking her, you could pull her over to the side and say with empathy, "I'm sorry the game isn't working for you, but by being so vocal about it you're making it difficult for the others to enjoy themselves." I know if you had said that to me, I would have probably had to choke back my tears while I was apologizing. My guilt would have been immense. And, (I think this is an Fi thing) I would have needed 20 minutes alone in the powder room to regroup. Then I would have come out as the life of the party... determined to make everyone else as comfortable as possible.

    Let me reiterate that the key points are:

    • A private reprimand. It is very easy for an Fi user to perceive that the Fe user is using the group dynamic to control them. And, it is my experience that this is a natural way Fe handles certain situations. It may seem reasonable to you, an Fe user, to do this, but you need to be aware that this is possibly the worst and most-counterproductive move you can make when trying to communicate with an Fi user. To say it is very poorly received by the Fi user is the understatement of the year. The moment the Fi user smells this, bi-directional communication is over. For the Fi user it becomes, "How dare you try to gang up on me. You are trying to control me." This diverts attention away from the original problem.
    • Refer to Other Fi Values. For the Fi user (or at least for me) there are values and then there are VALUES. Yes, me being honest about my feelings is an important value to me. But not making others uncomfortable is a far more important value. You, the Fe user, can use this to your advantage by reminding the Fi user that their behavior is conflicting with another of their Fi values. If you can do this, you'll be a black belt in Fi user inter-relations in no time.

    I think Fi users speak to each other in symbolic value statements that may sound, to the Fe user, like a secret, unintelligible code. But what's really going on is Fi users referring to values (in the abstract / archetypal sense) with each other. Think of it sort of like Fi users constantly using fables to make their points. I don't think I'm explaining this very well, but maybe it will help if I tell you that I'm able to look at a situation and almost instantly crystallize it into 3 or 4 values that are in operation. I naturally (perhaps from years of practice) know which are the "Most Important" values at play. And, I work very hard to stay true to those values.

    So as an Fe user, if you can figure out some of these archetypal values at play, and then refer to them, it's sort of like you're speaking Fi language. I'll get it... in a way all the finger wagging in the world won't communicate.

    I hope this helps some Fe users who have asked me how to respond to an Fi user they are having problems with.

    ================

    About the INTPs... I have several realllllly good INTP friends. But I have noticed that when they get into their "yuck, yay, or boo place" (Thank you Mr. CzeCze.) they will express these emotions at socially inappropriate times. I've never interpreted this as a lack of Fe awareness but more of a dominance of Ti-ness which can have maudlin tendencies. In other words, their Ti expressions override their social radar and they can just start kvetching in a way that it brings down the mood of the room. And, put two INTPs together that synch up their kvetching.... it is not a pretty, or pleasant sight.
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  2. #852
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    About the INTPs... I have several realllllly good INTP friends. But I have noticed that when they get into their "yuck, yay, or boo place" (Thank you Mr. CzeCze.) they will express these emotions at socially inappropriate times. I've never interpreted this as a lack of Fe awareness but more of a dominance of Ti-ness which can have maudlin tendencies. In other words, their Ti expressions override their social radar and they can just start kvetching in a way that it brings down the mood of the room. And, put two INTPs together that synch up their kvetching.... it is not a pretty, or pleasant sight.
    Well, that's definitely true.

    Including when Ti decides it's time to dissect a particular idea or value for its rational coherency (i.e., its seeming lack) at inappropriate times from a Feeling perspective. [Like, choosing to explain just why someone's Thanksgiving Day prayer makes no sense whatsoever, right after the prayer ends and everyone sits down at the table to eat.]
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #853
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, that's definitely true.

    Including when Ti decides it's time to dissect a particular idea or value for its rational coherency (i.e., its seeming lack) at inappropriate times from a Feeling perspective. [Like, choosing to explain just why someone's Thanksgiving Day prayer makes no sense whatsoever, right after the prayer ends and everyone sits down at the table to eat.]
    So true. So true. But I also love this about my INTP friends. I find it (usually) very endearing.

    Jennifer, I just did a massive overhaul of my post above. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
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  4. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, that's definitely true.

    Including when Ti decides it's time to dissect a particular idea or value for its rational coherency (i.e., its seeming lack) at inappropriate times from a Feeling perspective. [Like, choosing to explain just why someone's Thanksgiving Day prayer makes no sense whatsoever, right after the prayer ends and everyone sits down at the table to eat.]
    Elder Son has a habit of logically dissecting things that Elder Daughter shouts at him the heat of the moment. The difference between them is that Elder Son wants to display why he is logically in the right and morally on the high ground, whereas Elder Daughter wants to see a smoking crater where Elder Son previously had been.

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    Cool! Long replies!!!

    She's done that many other times so I was questioning her sensitivity. So Fi isn't as tactful as Fe--though that should be obvious, I guess I just didn't make that connection. So she's not just mean or something--just caught up in her Fi. Thanks for the explanations!!!

    I guess you're right in that Fi users need to work on noticing what their affect is on others--I'm pretty sure if I whined about games she created herself being boring multiple times, she'd be hurt, too. (And Fe users need to work on not getting butthurt when people aren't being perfectly tactful.)

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    Why do so many INTPs like talking about Fe?

  7. #857
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Why do so many INTPs like talking about Fe?
    Because for them it's like discussing antimatter, or the far side of the moon.

  8. #858
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    Default re party situation

    DEAR GOD i tend to write a lot. condensed points:

    1. your friend probably didn't mean to be so negative toward you or others - it was a personal feeling. maybe she didn't like the activity because it made her feel restricted, or put her on the spot, etc. she also probably didn't want to be left out, hence complaining instead of leaving.

    2.
    I was hosting a party and had planned and prepared for what I thought would be fun activities [...] if she didn't like it, then she didn't need to participate [...] I would have gone out of my way to make sure she had something to do.
    it's a bit... well, it's like "you're going to have fun doing my activity, and if you don't, you can go away, and i will organize something else for you to do far away from me." that really doesn't sound fun to me. i think it might be a P and J thing, to some extent. as a P, i feel like fun kind of just happens. Js maybe are more interested in creating fun, which to me can feel restricting. i suspect that part of the issue is probably that she wanted to have a good time and to socialize, but your activity seemed like a barrier to fun, maybe both to herself and others.

    and it just kind of seems like a lose-lose situation for her: either she has to be bored or ostracized. and yes, maybe that's her personal problem, but if she's feeling it, maybe others are too.

    3. maybe she even felt like she was doing others a favor by speaking up and pointing out her opinion that the activities were boring. sometimes i'll speak up and say the thing no one else dares say, and half the room will be like OH MY GOD ME TOO. and in that case it's worth it to have said something - it's ultimately good for everyone, despite temporary discomfort.

    4. i've accidentally offended others via implication too. i doubt she meant to imply you were boring. you are not your game, after all.

    so i totally agree with you that Fi users need to work on better understanding the interpersonal implications of stating personal truths. no question that Fi is totally self-absorbed sometimes, and blinded by it. what i think that Fe users could try, instead of just not getting butthurt (which is hard, lol), is just to try to understand why the Fi user might have said something seemingly incongruous and harsh. like i've described, your friend was probably uncomfortable herself, plus had a sense of social consciousness where she was concerned that because she wasn't enjoying herself, others weren't either. i think that EW's idea of a private talk is good - a pointed question might be even more effective than a reprimand (sort of like a koan, thwapping the Fi user into realizing what an ass they were being). not taking Fi "truthiness" personally is something that would help, too - if she wanted to say you were boring, she'd have said you were boring, not the games.

  9. #859
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Why do so many INTPs like talking about Fe?
    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Because for them it's like discussing antimatter, or the far side of the moon.
    Revenge.
    Masked as analysis.



    I'm still thinking a lot of stuff in this thread is part of more than just Fe and Fi. We should consider that maybe extroverts vs. introverts of either type might have similar traits. (For example, introverts really don't like being "locked into" things either, or maybe IxTx's don't like being locked into things and find presumption offensive from a more rational perspective -- "fairness" -- we don't tell other people what to do to make plans for them and violate their freedom/autonomy, how dare someone else just presume to make plans for us! And yes, it is an "offense" and often brings a kneejerk response if we've been frustrated too much in the past -- but because we typically speak of it rationally, the emotion is channeled/filtered rather than completely raw. Anyway, my point is that people can become offended by someone else's social behavior for T and "impersonal fairness" reasons, not just F reasons.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm still thinking a lot of stuff in this thread is part of more than just Fe and Fi. We should consider that maybe extroverts vs. introverts of either type might have similar traits. (For example, introverts really don't like being "locked into" things either, or maybe IxTx's don't like being locked into things and find presumption offensive from a more rational perspective -- "fairness" -- we don't tell other people what to do to make plans for them and violate their freedom/autonomy, how dare someone else just presume to make plans for us! And yes, it is an "offense" and often brings a kneejerk response if we've been frustrated too much in the past -- but because we typically speak of it rationally, the emotion is channeled/filtered rather than completely raw. Anyway, my point is that people can become offended by someone else's social behavior for T and "impersonal fairness" reasons, not just F reasons.)
    I definitely agree with this.

    Re. the party situations in general -- actually I think I'm hyper-sensitive to other people not enjoying themselves, and I'd probably be upset about that fact more than the fact that the person didn't want to play. I don't think I would particularly care if the other person didn't want to play along - however if the other person was really disruptive or projecting his own dislike onto the group as a whole (judging/critiquing those who ARE enjoying it), then I'd have a problem with it. But as far as the person who didn't like it? In my mind, they have a 'right' not to like it. And again - I'd probably be stressed out myself that they weren't having fun. That said - if they're not having fun at all, I'd probably wonder why they were still hanging around. Continuing to hang around being mopey (or whatever) doesn't do that person or the group any good.

    Games/group activities can be tricky. I know on my end, I've always personally been really uncomfortable playing uber-extroverted games - i.e. anything having a 'charades'/acting component. I'm down with anything else, but I'll probably let it be known that I'm uncomfortable with an acting element, so that if it's a team-situation where different people can do different things, then I'll bow out of the acting piece. Or whatever. But if the entire game was very extrovert-ish? I think I'd bow out completely - even if it meant I was being a party-pooper - simply because my doing it would be an embarassment to not only myself but frankly everyone else would be embarrassed for me and believe me, I'd be doing the group a favor by NOT being on their team or playing!!! ahhahaa. I'd probably just head home or something, or else enjoy watching the rest of the people playing.
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