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  1. #831
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Here's how I would handle a situation in which we're all trying to come to a compromise. I would listen to all perspectives, trying to figure out which would suit the needs of the most people, or failing that, the intended purposes of the group. I would realize that this means I myself might not get exactly what I need from the compromise, but that it might be better for the group overall. I will make a suggestion as to the best solution, and if that goes over well, I'll work on making everyone happy and refining the solution, possibly including a plan to accommodate other members more fully the next time. If someone pipes up with a better alternative solution, I'm absolutely open to that. Fe, for me, is not about excluding good alternative ideas. It IS, however, about making the majority of people happy, or at least being fair.
    How does a Fi-dom NOT do this also? I don't understand how you got the impression that INFPs insist on their own way without caring about what others feel & need. INFPs are usually VERY diplomatic in group situations; I'd argue far more so than the average person with tert or inferior Feeling... I find Fe tends to go with the loudest voices at times, and Fi people will make a special effort to draw out those who seem to be steamrolled over, that way a TRUE consensus can be made. There is also the matter of the consensus not being good in itself, which has been touched on by other posters. Mob mentality is dangerous, and that's what Fe feels like to a Fi-dom sometimes. It's the whole "everyone is jumping off a bridge, so you should too" attitude that will make a Fi-er suddenly be the voice of dissent; otherwise, we're probably some of the most easy-going & flexible group members, happy to accommodate other people's needs/ideas to an extent others are not.

    This is meant as a serious question, because it strikes at the heart of the breakdown in Fe/Fi interaction in many cases. Many Fe users see the above reaction as sort of a "special snowflake syndrome." Is it genuinely difficult to accept not getting your ideal desired outcome? Does compromise of any sort lead you to feel this way? This is what Fe doesn't understand. We're generally fine with not getting our ultimate desired outcome if the compromise is fair. To us, not being willing to accept any perspective but your own seems, for lack of a better word, immature. I know that's not where you're coming from, but that's what it seems like to an Fe user, so I realize there's a disconnect thing happening here. What would you consider to be a good outcome with a Fe user? One where you felt valued. Are you okay with a compromise outcome if the Fe user heard you out and explored the possibilities, but ultimately felt that it wouldn't best suit the needs of the group?
    You're putting this in a context which entirely twists the point into something else that was not implied by me (or others from what I can tell). It's not a matter of Fi-doms selfishly pushing for their own ideal & pouting when not heard. The ideal is NOT all about the Fi-doms personal values at all. An INFP is very likely to be acutely aware of how much other people's needs differ & that there is often no blanket standard that works for everyone. The INFP is NOT just looking out for their own needs, but those of the other individuals also. The Ne possibilities works both ways - to both conceive of a variety of acceptable solutions and to accept a variety from others, able to see how other people's ideas fit the basic value at stake. In this sense, the INFP adapts more to the individuals involved & the specific context, where Fe seems to want to implement rules for everyone to adapt to & make every context "standardized". Of course, the Fe method promotes stability by bringing in a measure of predictability & asking people to compromise. The Fi method works on the premise that nothing is fully predictable, so it's better to be flexible & adapt as you go. It's a form of compromise also, so that Fi is not that threatened by Fe. Fe seems MUCH more threatened by Fi, from my perspective, but Fi feels more repressed. It's pretty classic J vs P stuff in that respect.

    I think what's hard for me to understand is that I can't imagine there ever being a situation in which each and every member of the group felt like every shade and nuance of their opinion was validated and a solution emerged in which everyone was 100% happy. Making one person 100% happy is inevitably going to make the next person 50% happy or 2% happy or 0% happy. (Also, "happy" looks weird when you type it over and over.)
    I think you misunderstand what is meant by the ideal outcome. It's more of a general win-win than a 100% perfect goal. A strength of FiNe IS seeing new, better ways to meet individual needs of the group without trampling group needs. It is a strength of FiNe (or NeFi also) to be innovative in dealing with people instead of adhering to shared values. I'd argue that many Fe values have roots in Fi ideals, and Fi is the force which continues to seek refinement of these, just as Fe seeks to make them as workable & encompassing of as many people as possible. Sometimes when Fe is trying to stabilize, Fi (via Ne in this case) is trying to innovate, and that can cause a clash, but much of the time it can be complementary.

    It's an uphill battle though when there is an automatic rejection of a new approach simply because it is not the Fe standard approach. It can begin to feel that the rules violate their own principles when there is not enough flexibility for the individual's needs (that individual being other people too, not just the NFP). I realize this has shades of Si in it, but there are some aspects which seem to occur in NFJs also, as far as their having very singular visions at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think you'll find an INFP won't necessarily will create dissent in group situations nor are we unable to get past our own needs. We don't think in terms of the group as a whole but as a group of individuals. We respect that others have different needs than us and seek to create harmony by giving each person an opportunity to express their different perspectives and finding a common ground we can move forward from. However we also recognize that what one individual believes to be for the good of the group can differ greatly from what another deems to be best. And just because everyone else agrees on something doesn't necessarily mean that its for the good of the group. I have been in creative group situations where I have tried express myself only to be continually shot down. It can be a very lonely and overwhelming position to be told with annoyance, "no one else wants to do that", especially when my ideas have some worth.

    I do agree with you that rocking the boat for the selfish reasons isn't usually appropriate. However, this can be merely a false perception: what can seem to be selfish and unnecessary dissent can in fact be the great idea that you refuse to hear. Not that I'm saying that your bandmate is an Fi user or that this is simply a case of misunderstanding (she might just be a naggy bitch ).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #832
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Well, I was considering INFP because of the strength of my Si and also because I test INFP or INFJ quite a bit, and also because apparently INFPs *should* have a stronger grasp of Fe according to shadow function theory, but there's just no way. I love being part of a group or accepted by a group, and a lot of times when I read some of these descriptions of INFP needs I have that little tinge of annoyance that other people report, what you were referencing to as children throwing toys out the pram, that's how it strikes me.
    So be it. There are pros and cons to each type. Group acceptance isn't a big thing to me, which I feel to be a pro.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  3. #833
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Still processing y'all's responses about INFPs in groups. Might take a while to sink in. Meanwhile, I'll say this: I have definitely been on the receiving end of the Fe battering ram. The ENFJ bandmate I was talking about can definitely run roughshod over the others in the group, and I have had to stand my ground more forcefully than I usually do. It's frustrating when you are compromising and thinking of making someone happy, and they just take it for granted, then don't seem to take your opinions into consideration when it's important to you. It seems like they're not living up to their end of the bargain. She's not like that all the time, but when she is, it's exhausting and infuriating. Your SIL, PeaceBaby, sounds like a real piece of work, and she probably is taking advantage of the fact that you'll keep the peace and/or go with the flow. She is probably the type with whom you'll have to get forceful. Show her you matter.
    Something Witty

  4. #834
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    Nobody wants to talk about how Fi and Fe love each other? :sad:

  5. #835
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Nobody wants to talk about how Fi and Fe love each other? :sad:
    Hang on traveling woman - Don't sacrifice your plan
    Cause it will come back to you - Before you lose it on the man


    .:: DWTWD ::.

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    2011 TypeC Exercise Challenge - My Weekly Goals: Cardio 4x. Yoga/Pilates 1x. Pushups 70.

    There is this thing keeping everyone's lungs and lips locked - It is called fear and it's seeing a great renaissance

  6. #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Nobody wants to talk about how Fi and Fe love each other? :sad:
    I do!!!!

  7. #837
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I love my INFP and INTJ daughters and they use Fi. The INFP and I had to sort of learn how to navigate emotion around one another a fair bit. Not perfect, but functional. She is really quite easy to please contrary to how Fi is sounding to me in this thread right now. The INTJ has been known to scold me for dishonoring her by carrying heavy things while she is present -- I should let her do it because she is 'manlier.' The INTJ is sardonic and the INFP is fierce.

    They are both delightful and precious the majority of the time . . . but now I have to ask the INFP if she put away the dishes and she might growl at me and then I will tell her that I will color her hair when she gets done if she hasn't already done it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #838
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    It is the "gone awry" thread after all...
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #839
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    brace yourselves, long post ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This is meant as a serious question, because it strikes at the heart of the breakdown in Fe/Fi interaction in many cases. Many Fe users see the above reaction as sort of a "special snowflake syndrome." Is it genuinely difficult to accept not getting your ideal desired outcome?
    it is if people have purposely neglected to acknowledge all the options.

    like OrangeAppled has has pointed out, Ne is tailored to finding new solutions. so when you say "it's not possible" to meet everyone's needs, on some level i know that's true, but on another level, i feel like with a little thought, we can meet each person's basic needs and rights and find a solution that is not harmful to anyone. the issue that i see with some compromises is that there are many different sorts of concessions that can be made in a compromise. the fact that you are 50% happy and i am 50% happy doesn't mean that we're winning and losing equally in terms of what really matters. there are so many different shades of meaning that i can't even begin to picture a real 50/50 situation. it's another example of how Fi is extremely subjective and person-specific. combine Ne and Fi and you get a talent for adapting people to situations, and situations to people. just like NFJs see into the future where NFPs don't, NFPs see present options that NFJs do not - and both of these talents should be taken advantage of if we want the best for everyone.

    i'll give a real-life example - in a social club i'm in (mostly Fe doms, no question), we have a certain number of offices that need to be held. several of them are senior offices, with more responsibility and more influence, and a few in particular are subject to dealing with a lot of criticism by the nature of their role. we were electing people several years ago when we were short one senior officer, and a very new person stepped forward. she was quiet, sweet, naive, and was already having some trouble fitting in. i could see it already - she would get destroyed in that office. normally new people aren't allowed to hold that office for precisely that reason, but the majority of the group acknowledged that she volunteered and they didn't want to discuss (essentially ruled out the possibility of) other options, and elected her in. and, at no surprise to me, she got destroyed in that office: low self-confidence, ostracization, people not taking the office seriously. that compromise was like 90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90-10(her).

    what i don't agree with is the idea that it's okay that she got the short end of the stick because it worked well enough for everyone else. she also volunteered because she thought she could handle it, but the senior officers were full well aware that she really wasn't ready. so it looked like she was happy with the decision - we had "group consensus" at the time - but it wasn't good for her as an individual, and there were other paths that could have been pursued: her duties could have been split into two lesser offices, two people could have taken the office together, etc. it was "best for the group" that she take the office, in the words of one senior officer, but in the end, it was quite harmful to her, and the group didn't make a concerted effort to prevent that. the worst part is that many, if not most, people could see it coming, and just chalked it up to an unfortunate sacrifice.

    and if we treat her like that, it stands to reason that eventually we will treat everyone like that. everyone in turn will be hurt because we keep sacrificing one another for the sake of the group. the kicker was that ultimately, the fact that she had such a hard time meant that she couldn't fulfill the role she was supposed to fill, so others had to put in extra work that they technically weren't supposed to, so there was additional confusion and upset, which ended up damaging the whole group. and that's what Fi sees - that each individual must be fundamentally just as important as the group because there is no group without each individual.

    it's shitty math, sure, that the parts equal the whole... but then, that's why we're not Ts!

    and seriously, IRL, that's how you wind up with people seemingly spontaneously but consistently dropping out. they join the group and get attention, everyone agrees, things seem awesome for a while... and then they disagree with the group about something. suddenly the group isn't so interested in what they have to say, and they begin to wonder if the group really ever cared about them at all (which it did!) the secret to preventing that is to have group consensus but also to make sure each individual feels like they are considered and valued. Fe and Fi.

    Does compromise of any sort lead you to feel this way?
    compromise is essential to relationships. i do not begrudge it as a general rule (though some compromises are particularly unpleasant!), and it helps us see beyond the limitations of our own perspectives.

    To us, not being willing to accept any perspective but your own seems, for lack of a better word, immature.
    oh yes. but it's the same with Fe users. Ni and Si can be incredibly narrow, especially in group consensus.

    What would you consider to be a good outcome with a Fe user? One where you felt valued. Are you okay with a compromise outcome if the Fe user heard you out and explored the possibilities, but ultimately felt that it wouldn't best suit the needs of the group?
    sure, and i think Fe users generally make better group leaders anyway. still, i would want a Fi person somewhere high in the ranking, lest anyone get willfully ignored, or the Fe user start to take the group down their own personal path. Fe is persuasive, and i've clearly seen before where a Fe user decides that their personal opinion is the consensus of the group. or they decide to consistently overlook a specific person they don't like, especially if (and often because) that person moves in a bit of a different direction than the rest of the group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    But what about in groups that are important to you, where the individual members are your friends? What about in groups where harmony is important for the sake of staying together long term, like in a band, a family, or a marriage?
    i am in several groups like this. i do feel like balance is essential. imo, let a Fe be pilot and a Fi be copilot. i feel like both Fe and Fi users will attend to their personal "favorites", and both can help balance the other out. Fe will sway group consensus to attend to their favorites' opinions, and Fi will give more attention to spending more time with the favorites and hearing their ideas out more. it's not like Fe users don't show individuals preference either, but i feel like they do it in an opposite way. if you're on Fi's good side, you're included. if you're on Fe's good side, you're not excluded.

    Paying attention only to one's internal state and not caring about the group at all seems counterproductive, to me. How does Fi get anything done if it's rejected the idea of group dynamics?
    Fi does not reject group dynamics. after all, interpersonal relations are built off the basis of two or more individuals, plus we wouldn't have more individuals if we did not have group relations read: sex. Fi simply does not attend to group dynamics. fortunately, we all have both Fe and Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    If you saw a chess board and had never played chess before, would you point to each square and ask which pieces can move there, or figure out what each piece is and how it can move?
    the pieces. is that the right Fi answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think, ironically, that the sometimes utilitarian nature of Fe combined with my externally easygoing nature means that my needs often get ignored by them. There's not much utility in seeing to my needs, since I'm okay with most reasonable outcomes in many situations. This can sometimes leads to a pattern in which the only times I get Fe attention is when I do finally balk and draw a line. I think this dynamic can add to a negative perception of Fe, since some of us get more personal experience of the stick than the carrot.
    YES. i am a group junkie but simultaneously have a slight fear of groups. i always feel like i expect that i will be accepted by an individual, but rejected by a group. i've had the same experience of conceding often, so when i finally speak up because i see something as very important, people think it's unreasonable of me.

    it's actually really funny to hear all of these implications that Fi users don't like compromise. i compromise all the time. i'm usually happy to let a Fe user take the lead we're together, because they have a more directed agenda than myself. and that's totally fine with me, but it shouldn't be overlooked that i'm often rearranging my own priorities to meet their needs, so on the few occasions that i do have strong feelings, i expect that they will be willing to consider subverting their personal priorities for me as well. that's a compromise in and of itself: i let Fe take the wheel the vast majority of the time, provided that when i see a pressing reason to want to take it, i can take it. ime, it ends up that Fe is a better leader when things are going right and Fi is a better leader when things aren't. ideally, we can both optimize our individual Ni-Fe and Ne-Fi skills to meet the needs of ourselves, one another, and the people around us.

  10. #840
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    This turned out a little long and rambly. Therefore, headings will fix everything.
    I am going to shamelessly steal this for my facebook status update. Fantastic.

    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

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