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  1. #811
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopelandic View Post
    I think the point of Fi would be intergrity to the self. Knowing "the why" and meaning behind an action, not just the what. Ne obviously is the tool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Fe users usually think about how their intention will translate into action, and how that action will affect others. When others don't do the same, we find ourselves disappointed/upset/what-have-you. It seems like the other person didn't really care if they didn't think how their actions would affect us, if there are major negative outcomes. It's kind of the Golden Rule thing, I guess.
    The problem is when Fe says there is ONE way to act, when it sticks doggedly to an approach, regardless of other approaches being just as effective. It feels like a willful misunderstanding to an INFP; the person refuses to acknowledge another possibility as just as good. I realize this might seem more SFJ, but occasionally an NFJ fails to see another angle or more often misses the details that eliminated what they see as a better option.

    As Hopelandic brings out, an INFP is expressing via Ne, which means MANY possible actions & outcomes are seen, and the one which seems most appropriate to the Feeling is often chosen. One downside, is the INFP often chooses the most ideal, as opposed to the most realistic. Another downside is, the INFP is not speaking Fe language, which results in misinterpretation. FeSi doesn't know what to do with any approach that is not familiar, and FeNi seems paranoid in its interpretation at times, ready to assume the worst, and doesn't even let the action play out before jumping in and condemning it, inevitably making it bad. The readiness to form judgments too quickly is a real problem.

    The Fe person also seems to think that their ONE way will affect the INFP as it does everyone else, but here again, there is something lost in translation, where the INFP just sees some seemingly phony one-size-fits-all approach that is devoid of deeper meaning, and it's almost insulting to our intelligence. Then the Fe-er gets mad that the INFP is not affected as everyone else is affected, and the INFP must not be "normal" to not feel & respond as everyone else does. In reality, the Fe-er has failed to really consider the effect of their actions in relation to the individual. At best, Ne allows an INFP to accommodate individual needs very well, to adjust the approach as they go. I think tertiary Si comes in handy here, as the trial-&-error is "documented" mentally and the INFP has patterns & experience to draw on instead of groping in the dark for the best approach. No doubt the Fe approach works well, and it's refined to suit as many as possible, but it seems there is far less adjusting for the individual. I do imagine Si & Ni aid in this for them, as well as in interpreting new approaches foreign to Fe protocol. Obviously, Fe people do adjust to individuals at times also, but it seems to take more time with the person, and they have to be more aware of not allowing first impressions to hold more weight than they should.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #812
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The Fe person also seems to think that their ONE way will affect the INFP as it does everyone else, but here again, there is something lost in translation, where the INFP just sees some seemingly phony one-size-fits-all approach that is devoid of deeper meaning, and it's almost insulting to our intelligence. Then the Fe-er gets mad that the INFP is not affected as everyone else is affected, and the INFP must not be "normal" to not feel & respond as everyone else does. In reality, the Fe-er has failed to really consider the effect of their actions in relation to the individual. At best, Ne allows an INFP to accommodate individual needs very well, to adjust the approach as they go. I think tertiary Si comes in handy here, as the trial-&-error is "documented" mentally and the INFP has patterns & experience to draw on instead of groping in the dark for the best approach. No doubt the Fe approach works well, and it's refined to suit as many as possible, but it seems there is far less adjusting for the individual. I do imagine Si & Ni aid in this for them, as well as in interpreting new approaches foreign to Fe protocol. Obviously, Fe people do adjust to individuals at times also, but it seems to take more time with the person, and they have to be more aware of not allowing first impressions to hold more weight than they should.
    I think this strikes at the core of Fe/Fi interrelation, from what I understand of it.

    As an INFP, I sometimes feel repelled by Fe dominance, although I am aware that, most of the time, that was not Fe's intended outcome. As OrangeAppled notes, the problem seems to lie in the construction of plans/outcomes by Fe which only seem to have taken account of my feelings or thoughts in a very cursory way. The problem occurs due to what I perceive to be the artificiality of it all and the reductive nature of Fe attempts to identity and control all the variables, which is what the INFP necessarily becomes. It is as though, through Fe attempts to accommodate everyone, they have not realised that perhaps the INFP wanted something different. Voicing one's concerns about this to Fe can sometimes result in Fe feeling offended, perhaps because s/he feels hurt that the INFP is "revolting" against their best intentions. Similarly, the INFP thinks "well you've accommodated for everyone else, but you don't care about me! Therefore, the others are clearly more important to you!". Fi feels overlooked and Fe fears some kind of maudlin insurrection.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  3. #813
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    ^^^^ OrangeAppled and Adasta, I love the way you both have articulated this. +1000.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  4. #814
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    ^^^^ OrangeAppled and Adasta, I love the way you both have articulated this. +1000.
    Praise is always welcome (and is indeed necessary)!
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  5. #815
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    Then the Fe-er gets mad that the INFP is not affected as everyone else is affected, and the INFP must not be "normal" to not feel & respond as everyone else does. In reality, the Fe-er has failed to really consider the effect of their actions in relation to the individual. At best, Ne allows an INFP to accommodate individual needs very well, to adjust the approach as they go. I think tertiary Si comes in handy here, as the trial-&-error is "documented" mentally and the INFP has patterns & experience to draw on instead of groping in the dark for the best approach. No doubt the Fe approach works well, and it's refined to suit as many as possible, but it seems there is far less adjusting for the individual.
    And this is lovely re tertiary Si ... @bold ... yes, every individual becomes "roadmapped" within the larger map of their towns, counties, states/provinces, countries ... I don't have a map that only lists the town and cities. My internal map of humanity includes every little dirt road and hamlet along the way.

    Each person fits within each group, and uniquely within that group as compared to other groups, and the combination of elements within each group changes the dynamics and energy of that group. It's sometimes obvious, but often subtle. IOW, I can deal with the same people uniquely within the various contexts of our lives.

    What's interesting to me is that since we moved, I have been making many new maps for these new people and groups in my life. It's surprising, challenging and kind of refreshing too to be reduced to starting from scratch with such a large portion of my life. Although, people do tend to fit patterns too, so it's not quite like starting from scratch. There's an experiential resource I can tap into as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    It is as though, through Fe attempts to accommodate everyone, they have not realised that perhaps the INFP wanted something different. Voicing one's concerns about this to Fe can sometimes result in Fe feeling offended, perhaps because s/he feels hurt that the INFP is "revolting" against their best intentions. Similarly, the INFP thinks "well you've accommodated for everyone else, but you don't care about me! Therefore, the others are clearly more important to you!". Fi feels overlooked and Fe fears some kind of maudlin insurrection.
    Yes, nice post. I would change INFP @ bold though to another word, such as "individual" or even Fi-er ... I feel uncomfortable with a single type being labelled as some constant voice of dissension.

    From a mathematical standpoint, Fe does an averaging, attempting to accommodate a majority, but to my mind simply uses less variables - some it chooses to exclude, and others that Fe does not see. Personally, I do an averaging too, but the equation includes each individual. Thus, it becomes very complicated at times, weighting everything I feel is important to include, appropriately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    ^^^^ OrangeAppled and Adasta, I love the way you both have articulated this. +1000.
    Agreed.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #816
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The problem is when Fe says there is ONE way to act, when it sticks doggedly to an approach, regardless of other approaches being just as effective. It feels like a willful misunderstanding to an INFP; the person refuses to acknowledge another possibility as just as good. I realize this might seem more SFJ, but occasionally an NFJ fails to see another angle or more often misses the details that eliminated what they see as a better option.
    As neither an SFJ or and NFJ, I can only speak for myself, which may be a different perspective than what you're thinking of, but I still operate very much according to Fe. Here's how I would handle a situation in which we're all trying to come to a compromise. I would listen to all perspectives, trying to figure out which would suit the needs of the most people, or failing that, the intended purposes of the group. I would realize that this means I myself might not get exactly what I need from the compromise, but that it might be better for the group overall. I will make a suggestion as to the best solution, and if that goes over well, I'll work on making everyone happy and refining the solution, possibly including a plan to accommodate other members more fully the next time. If someone pipes up with a better alternative solution, I'm absolutely open to that. Fe, for me, is not about excluding good alternative ideas. It IS, however, about making the majority of people happy, or at least being fair.

    As Hopelandic brings out, an INFP is expressing via Ne, which means MANY possible actions & outcomes are seen, and the one which seems most appropriate to the Feeling is often chosen. One downside, is the INFP often chooses the most ideal, as opposed to the most realistic. Another downside is, the INFP is not speaking Fe language, which results in misinterpretation. FeSi doesn't know what to do with any approach that is not familiar, and FeNi seems paranoid in its interpretation at times, ready to assume the worst, and doesn't even let the action play out before jumping in and condemning it, inevitably making it bad. The readiness to form judgments too quickly is a real problem.
    I have no problems with Ne whatsoever. I like creative suggestions. If it's mostly about being heard and exploring possibility, I'm definitely cool with that. I'm a P, though. I do think you are right about the Fe/Si thing and staying with what's familiar--I have seen that many times. I have an ENFJ friend who is VERY opinionated and decisive. You can suggest something to her, and sometimes she's fine with it and open to trying something new. But sometimes, she'll clamp down on that idea with a NO so fast you want to slap her. She's given it no thought, but she knows it won't work, and we're not doing it. To her credit, though, if she respects you, she will usually go back later when she's alone and think about it, and then come back with a new perspective, sometimes having completely reversed the earlier decision. I can't be so J about things unless I have already Ne'd the possibilities to death. Sometimes I have to shut down suggestions made by students because, though it's my nature to be flexible and I wouldn't mind accommodating 2 or 3 people, accommodating the individual needs of 60 or 80 students would mean that I would be the one stuck doing all the extra work. I've already foreseen the outcome of those suggestions, or in some cases tried them, and it doesn't work. So I have to be less accommodating in those cases than is my nature. They will have to accept not having their ideal circumstances, but I've done my best to be as flexible as I can without burying myself in the process. It's a balancing act.

    The Fe person also seems to think that their ONE way will affect the INFP as it does everyone else, but here again, there is something lost in translation, where the INFP just sees some seemingly phony one-size-fits-all approach that is devoid of deeper meaning, and it's almost insulting to our intelligence. Then the Fe-er gets mad that the INFP is not affected as everyone else is affected, and the INFP must not be "normal" to not feel & respond as everyone else does. In reality, the Fe-er has failed to really consider the effect of their actions in relation to the individual. At best, Ne allows an INFP to accommodate individual needs very well, to adjust the approach as they go. I think tertiary Si comes in handy here, as the trial-&-error is "documented" mentally and the INFP has patterns & experience to draw on instead of groping in the dark for the best approach. No doubt the Fe approach works well, and it's refined to suit as many as possible, but it seems there is far less adjusting for the individual. I do imagine Si & Ni aid in this for them, as well as in interpreting new approaches foreign to Fe protocol. Obviously, Fe people do adjust to individuals at times also, but it seems to take more time with the person, and they have to be more aware of not allowing first impressions to hold more weight than they should.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    I think this strikes at the core of Fe/Fi interrelation, from what I understand of it.

    As an INFP, I sometimes feel repelled by Fe dominance, although I am aware that, most of the time, that was not Fe's intended outcome. As OrangeAppled notes, the problem seems to lie in the construction of plans/outcomes by Fe which only seem to have taken account of my feelings or thoughts in a very cursory way. The problem occurs due to what I perceive to be the artificiality of it all and the reductive nature of Fe attempts to identity and control all the variables, which is what the INFP necessarily becomes. It is as though, through Fe attempts to accommodate everyone, they have not realised that perhaps the INFP wanted something different. Voicing one's concerns about this to Fe can sometimes result in Fe feeling offended, perhaps because s/he feels hurt that the INFP is "revolting" against their best intentions. Similarly, the INFP thinks "well you've accommodated for everyone else, but you don't care about me! Therefore, the others are clearly more important to you!". Fi feels overlooked and Fe fears some kind of maudlin insurrection.
    This is meant as a serious question, because it strikes at the heart of the breakdown in Fe/Fi interaction in many cases. Many Fe users see the above reaction as sort of a "special snowflake syndrome." Is it genuinely difficult to accept not getting your ideal desired outcome? Does compromise of any sort lead you to feel this way? This is what Fe doesn't understand. We're generally fine with not getting our ultimate desired outcome if the compromise is fair. To us, not being willing to accept any perspective but your own seems, for lack of a better word, immature. I know that's not where you're coming from, but that's what it seems like to an Fe user, so I realize there's a disconnect thing happening here. What would you consider to be a good outcome with a Fe user? One where you felt valued. Are you okay with a compromise outcome if the Fe user heard you out and explored the possibilities, but ultimately felt that it wouldn't best suit the needs of the group?

    I think what's hard for me to understand is that I can't imagine there ever being a situation in which each and every member of the group felt like every shade and nuance of their opinion was validated and a solution emerged in which everyone was 100% happy. Making one person 100% happy is inevitably going to make the next person 50% happy or 2% happy or 0% happy. (Also, "happy" looks weird when you type it over and over.)

    Also, regarding the not caring about you, but caring about the other person, I'd say that is usually not the case. We just haven't cared about you MORE than the other person.
    Something Witty

  7. #817
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Is it genuinely difficult to accept not getting your ideal desired outcome?
    It really depends on the subject. I know that I can't always get my ideal outcome in every situation, but if I consider Fe's choice to be "unwise" then it may become more difficult. This is what's tricky, because it's hard to define exactly what will cause the problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Does compromise of any sort lead you to feel this way?
    Yeah, sometimes, if I'm being asked to compromise myself, rather than the situation. However, what I feel is unreasonable might seem utterly ridiculous to Fe. Things like "Why don't you just forget about feeling bad right now and just cheer up, just for this evening" is unreasonable to me because it smacks of falsity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This is what Fe doesn't understand. We're generally fine with not getting our ultimate desired outcome if the compromise is fair. To us, not being willing to accept any perspective but your own seems, for lack of a better word, immature. I know that's not where you're coming from, but that's what it seems like to an Fe user, so I realize there's a disconnect thing happening here.
    In short: why do any of these other people matter? This is a very broad statement and, obviously, it doesn't apply to everyone. However, in general, I would say that Fes care for others in a way which I don't and sometimes I think they care too much. Conversely, Fe might look at Fi and say they're too inhibited and too tetchy. There's the rub.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    What would you consider to be a good outcome with a Fe user? One where you felt valued. Are you okay with a compromise outcome if the Fe user heard you out and explored the possibilities, but ultimately felt that it wouldn't best suit the needs of the group?
    I've no problem with compromise if the goal would benefit all of the group and I cared about what was happening. A lot of the time though, Fe is trying to people-please and I'm not really interested in it! Therefore, if something happens which marginalises me, it would cause a problem.

    I think the key here is that, as an INFP, I don't care about the harmony of the group as Fe seems to. If I'm upset, I don't want to be around other people anyway, so the idea of worrying about group dynamics doesn't occur to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Also, regarding the not caring about you, but caring about the other person, I'd say that is usually not the case. We just haven't cared about you MORE than the other person.
    Boooooooooooooo
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  8. #818
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Adasta--

    Thanks for your response. I feel like we're just at an impasse, though. I do understand that there are some times when the opinions of those closest to us are far more important than those of "the masses." But what about in groups that are important to you, where the individual members are your friends? What about in groups where harmony is important for the sake of staying together long term, like in a band, a family, or a marriage?

    In my band, for instance, we often disagree about what places we want to play, what songs we want to play, how often we want to gig, etc. In order for us to function well, we have to realize a) what's good for the band as a whole might not be good for one or more of us individually at the time, but b) we might get our way the next time, on a different issue, because we care about each other and want everyone to ultimately be happy/heard. One of my friends in the band sometimes wants me to stick up for her so she'll have more leverage and get what she wants. But in doing so, she's negating the fact that I also have a perspective that needs consideration.

    I guess I don't understand not caring about other people's needs. Paying attention only to one's internal state and not caring about the group at all seems counterproductive, to me. How does Fi get anything done if it's rejected the idea of group dynamics?
    Something Witty

  9. #819
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This is meant as a serious question, because it strikes at the heart of the breakdown in Fe/Fi interaction in many cases. Many Fe users see the above reaction as sort of a "special snowflake syndrome." Is it genuinely difficult to accept not getting your ideal desired outcome? Does compromise of any sort lead you to feel this way? This is what Fe doesn't understand. We're generally fine with not getting our ultimate desired outcome if the compromise is fair. To us, not being willing to accept any perspective but your own seems, for lack of a better word, immature. I know that's not where you're coming from, but that's what it seems like to an Fe user, so I realize there's a disconnect thing happening here. What would you consider to be a good outcome with a Fe user? One where you felt valued. Are you okay with a compromise outcome if the Fe user heard you out and explored the possibilities, but ultimately felt that it wouldn't best suit the needs of the group?

    I think what's hard for me to understand is that I can't imagine there ever being a situation in which each and every member of the group felt like every shade and nuance of their opinion was validated and a solution emerged in which everyone was 100% happy. Making one person 100% happy is inevitably going to make the next person 50% happy or 2% happy or 0% happy. (Also, "happy" looks weird when you type it over and over.)

    Also, regarding the not caring about you, but caring about the other person, I'd say that is usually not the case. We just haven't cared about you MORE than the other person.
    Oh, this is a perfectly natural response but isn't what I imagine was intended.

    I think you'll find INFPs are naturally rebellious whenever they are/appear to be told, "You feel this" - which is how Fe can come off. Group harmony is always important to us but we define it along slightly different guidelines. Nonetheless we are rather suspicious of an oppressively utilitarian approach; INFPs fear being swept up into a chorus of agreement without our consent. We are not necessarily being precious or intentionally contrary when we resist such an approach; we just don't like when there is a specific assumption made about us. There are many general assumptions you can make about the way human beings like to be treated - these don't bother us. Its when people leap to conclusions and attempt to haphazardly assign us specific characteristics or intentions by means of some social shorthand without actually bothering to get to know us first or perhaps not even wishing to.

    One of the reasons INFPs are so reactionary about this is just how often people seem to get us wrong. The reticent INFP demeanour often leads people to 'fill in the blanks' to their liking. This goes beyond simply taking me as as I appear; it is making an assumption based on the way I appear. For example: "she seems shy and quiet therefore she must be timid and lack conviction and self-esteem".
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #820

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    If you saw a chess board and had never played chess before, would you point to each square and ask which pieces can move there, or figure out what each piece is and how it can move?
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

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