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  1. #801
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The thing is, Fe people seem to think that X action means Y good intention, and Fi is operating in its own way, not according to formula. Y good intention in Fi do not come out in the prescribed X way, so Fe wants to deny the existence of Fi's good intention. In this sense, Fe is more about what actually manifests on the surface, because as long as X is shown, then it's rather assumed that it's stemming from Y good intention (although other factors may prove it to be phony), and if X is not shown, then Y good intention is questioned. This is frustrating for the Fi person.
    Plus, it can be apparent when Fe-ers are "going through the motions" believing their actions a sufficient concealment of their true feelings or intent. I have observed Fe-ers in conversation, displaying the finest, most congenial smiles, head nods and eye contact, coming across like the following to me: "I will look like I am interested in what 'Joe' has to say because that's what I am supposed to do here, BUT I THINK HE'S AN IDIOT AND JUST WISH HE WOULD SHUT UP." As an FYI, the caps is what an Fi-er is likely hearing you "say" too, and this data has meaning to us. Thus, Fe actions can appear contrived well beyond the necessity of social convention. Fi, at times like this, feels like a kind of sincerity filter. Believe me, 'Joe' may very well be a tool, and I probably wish 'Joe' would shut up too, and I could easily see myself getting trapped in a conversation with him, but just looking like you care about what someone has to say is not enough to convince the whole audience. Sometimes I don't think Fe-ers "get" that fact. It's the root I suppose of why some people can accuse Fe of being "fake", even though in Fe hearts I know, there often reside wonderful, pure feelings and motives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Affably Evil View Post
    You're right: because Fe understands intentions as manifested through "good" or "beneficial" actions, it becomes difficult for an Fe user to trust the Fi user's presence of good intentions if they haven't been putting capital into the social bank of socially established signs of good intention as manifested through "good" results of action.
    Yes, and this is how Fe is thus deceived; I can play the role and do good works or what's socially expected of me, even if my heart is contrary. Fe doesn't seem to know or care otherwise sometimes, assuming more often that because I am being good my actions are coming from a good place in my heart.

    Let's hope the Ni can pick up what's really true instead, to not be so deceived.

    Quote Originally Posted by Affably Evil View Post
    So my question is how might we bridge this gap?
    It's a good question. I think we get so close to understanding the Fi - Fe divide, but bridging the gap seems elusive.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #802
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Well, much like Te, Fe mostly cares about action and result. Of course, Fe also wants general harmony, and will do everything within reason to ensure the greater harmony of the group. Which means that there will be a handful of people who are not 100% happy or 100% heard. Fe wants willing compromise. Often, the Fe user is not getting 100% of what he or she wants, either, but knows that sometimes sacrifices must be made in order for things to function. This extends to the intention idea. Fe knows that someone might be DOING something while BELIEVING another. Sometimes that's perfectly okay in our book, and often means more because the person willingly compromised to make the other person or the group happy. Meanwhile, a person can have great intentions, but if they didn't think about how their actions might affect others, Fe doesn't care as much about intention, because the action had the negative effect that it did. Fe users usually think about how their intention will translate into action, and how that action will affect others. When others don't do the same, we find ourselves disappointed/upset/what-have-you. It seems like the other person didn't really care if they didn't think how their actions would affect us, if there are major negative outcomes. It's kind of the Golden Rule thing, I guess.
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  3. #803
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ Thanks Tallulah. I don't have anything to add to what you've said, but I do think I understand the nuances you are emphasizing here.

    I was just finishing dinner and contemplating that if the result is all that matters in the end, what purpose then is introverted feeling after all?

    Somehow, intentions must matter. A person's interior state has some bearing. If you act from a place of insincerity and it can be detected ..... ahh, I don't know. Just rambling a bit.

    Some of this discussion is difficult to unwind for me because I am an SO dominant. I work hard to help people get along, and I can see how important outcomes are; in some ways I undoubtedly look like Fe IRL. The overlap makes it tough to be completely objective and discerning.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ Thanks Tallulah. I don't have anything to add to what you've said, but I do think I understand the nuances you are emphasizing here.

    I was just finishing dinner and contemplating that if the result is all that matters in the end, what purpose then is introverted feeling after all?

    Somehow, intentions must matter. A person's interior state has some bearing. If you act from a place of insincerity and it can be detected ..... ahh, I don't know. Just rambling a bit.

    Some of this discussion is difficult to unwind for me because I am an SO dominant. I work hard to help people get along, and I can see how important outcomes are; in some ways I undoubtedly look like Fe IRL. The overlap makes it tough to be completely objective and discerning.
    I tend to be accommodating and willing to compromise. I guess you're asking a rhetorical by asking what the point of Fi is, but i'll answer from my perspective anyway :P I think the point of Fi would be intergrity to the self. Knowing "the why" and meaning behind an action, not just the what. Ne obviously is the tool.

    It's interesting, what Tallulah has said. I've seen a thread on another board by an infj about caring. She asked something along the lines of, "what good is caring if you don't show it? what's the point then? it's not really caring if you don't act on it".

    Wouldn't an Fe type, have to consider intentions in order to figure out whether or not getting hurt over the person not caring about the effects of their actions is really justified? how does a fe type view inaction?

    See, people not caring about the effects of their actions is important to me too. But from an fi+ne perspective, I need to analyse the source to understand what's really going on and find meaning in the action.

  5. #805
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Well, for one thing, it's an amazing gift when it comes to personal expression and being the "voice of the people." It's what drives artistic expression and makes people distinct from one another. Imagine poets and songwriters and artists without Fi. Sometimes that expression is what overrides the status quo and creates true change. Sometimes it's very important to go against the grain and make a bunch of people unhappy. It's just not always important to do that. I think balance and discernment is important for both Fe and Fi users. We have to pick our battles.
    Something Witty

  6. #806
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopelandic View Post
    It's interesting, what Tallulah has said. I've seen a thread on another board by an infj about caring. She asked something along the lines of, "what good is caring if you don't show it? what's the point then? it's not really caring if you don't act on it".

    Wouldn't an Fe type, have to consider intentions in order to figure out whether or not getting hurt over the person not caring about the effects of their actions is really justified? how does a fe type view inaction?

    See, people not caring about the effects of their actions is important to me too. But from an fi+ne perspective, I need to analyse the source to understand what's really going on and find meaning in the action.
    Well, if we go back to skylights' earlier example, she didn't intend to cause a mess for her friend by not strictly keeping her friend's confidence. She figured since the friend had told another person herself, and since the mentor had told another person, then she was probably off the hook. When the friend found out and WAS upset, her good intentions didn't count for a lot, because the friend saw her actions as disloyal. Instead of owning up to it and apologizing immediately, she wanted to explain why what she did was still okay, because she didn't intend to cause harm. From a Fe perspective, whether she intended to cause harm was irrelevant, because she a) should have kept the confidence, and b) should have realized that the consequence that did happen was a likely outcome, anyway. Her actions DID cause harm. Explanation of intentions can sound a lot like excuses and rationalizing in times like this, which further frustrates the Fe user. It's like, "You caused harm, and you still don't GET it."
    Something Witty

  7. #807
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Yeah. It's like if you accidentally physically step on my toe. I'm glad you didn't come up and stomp on my toe on purpose, but my toe still hurts. If I thought you'd do something like that on purpose, we'd never be friends but just because you didn't do it on purpose does not mean that an apology is not in order.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #808
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah
    Instead of owning up to it and apologizing immediately, she wanted to explain why what she did was still okay, because she didn't intend to cause harm. She figured since the friend had told another person herself, and since the mentor had told another person, then she was probably off the hook.
    good points.

    to clarify just a bit, i didn't think it was okay - i knew i fucked up, and definitely apologized - but i wanted my friend to know that hurting her was not my planned outcome, and i wanted to make it clear that a variable that i wasn't actively controlling (my shitty memory) had interfered. i should have controlled it, but i didn't, and there was nothing i could do at that point to change that. i certainly did apologize though, and i did everything i could to heal things between us.

    i also didn't think i was off the hook - but i assumed there would be a sort of cancelling out that occurred, being that my friend and i had transgressed in the same way. it wasn't about me not being guilty anymore - i certainly was - but i was surprised that she was so upset because in my mind she would understand why i did what i did, being that she did the same thing too, and once she understood, that would be the end of it. it was a very Fi concept, because i was attending to our internal feelings about it, while she was concerned with the external interpersonal implications, and while i was seeking to repair what had gone astray inside, she was seeking to repair what had gone astray outside. we were both taken aback that the other person seemed to think that their own domain was more important. i was annoyed that she was being so seemingly superficial, and she was annoyed that i was being so seemingly nearsighted.

    maybe i'm wrong here - Fe dom/aux, let me know - but i feel like intentions are accounted for in Fe types in Ni and Si long before the respective actions take place. the problem with P types sometimes is that we're reactionary - we more often respond to things. Js more often plan ahead - they account for things happening ahead of time. Ps have an advantage when the unexpected occurs, but we can also be blind to things that are going to be important later. i didn't pay enough attention at the time she told me the secret to memorize exactly what it was and hold it in special confidence, and that bit me in the ass later. whereas i feel like a J would be more likely to see via Ni or Si how important those details may be in the future, and treat them differently because of that. of course, if they don't ever become important, then the J wasted time and energy, but if they do become important, then the J is less likely to make the same mistake that i did. and the FJ is likely to treat people consistently in a way that reflects what they see as being important via Ni/Si, so their intentions manifest in their consistently acting in a way that directs away from a hurt like this occurring.

    b) should have realized that the consequence that did happen was a likely outcome, anyway
    true. unfortunately my ability to predict likely outcomes sucks. inferior Si, shadow Ni... what i wouldn't give for it, though...


  9. #809
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    just want to clarify a bit - you're close, and i agree with the points you're making, but it's a bit more nuanced -

    i didn't think it was okay. i knew i fucked up. but i wanted my friend to know that hurting her was not my planned outcome, and i wanted to make it clear that a variable that i wasn't actively controlling (my shitty memory) had interfered. i should have controlled it, but i didn't, and there was nothing i could do at that point to fix that.

    i also didn't think i was off the hook - but i thought there could be a sort of cancelling out that occurred, being that my friend and i had transgressed in the same way. i was surprised that she was so upset because in my mind she would understand why i did what i did, being that she did the same thing too.



    you guys have the advantage of Ni (or Si, if you're an SFJ). my ability to predict likely outcomes sucks.
    Yeah, and I don't want to misrepresent you...was just trying to recall from memory what happened, and boiled it down to the broad essence.
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  10. #810
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ oh crap you caught me before i edited, sorry!!

    it's okay though! you got the essence of it. i just wanted to clarify a few things because i felt like they were important subtleties that related to Fi reasoning. i did own up to it and apologize too, which i wanted to make clear, which was part of why i was so confused. i thought i'd done everything right by her - but it was clear that i'd missed something important. now i understand why.

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