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  1. #791
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Not sure if this is what Random Ness meant or not, but when I think of babysitting at a party, I wouldn't mean making sure that everyone behaves appropriately, so much as making sure that people aren't being left out, making conversation with someone so they are having a good time etc. I think I tend to extrapolate how I would feel if I was on the edges of things and even if it's not my first inclination, feel compelled a little to try to make people feel happy and included. Especially if I were a friend of the host, I would see this not as usurping their role, but rather supporting them in it because there is too much going on for them to attend to everything: food, dealing with emergencies, greeting people as they arrive, taking coats, making sure people have what they need, making everyone feel welcome.

  2. #792
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ ah. that take on it is why i love Fe dom/aux

    though i think there can be a dark side of it that can come off as abandoning to Fi users, in addition to being slightly controlling. growing up, i had to learn that my mom would never attend to me at parties she hosted because she felt the need to attend to everyone. sometimes that made me wonder if she cared about me any more than the other people at the party, even though i was supposed to be, as her daughter, special to her. that was a hard thing for my little Fi-self to come to terms with.

    and even 15 years later, it's still hard. at a long (several days) visitation recently for a close relative who passed away, i didn't really know a lot of people, and it was far from home, and i was worn out and emotionally exhausted (lots of people crying, dead body on display, totally unexpected death, we were taking care the practical stuff and taking care of the deceased's inner family, kinda rough in general) - and i wish my mom (ESFJ) would have just hung with me in private for maybe 15 minutes or so while we were hosting the visitation. i asked if she would. but she never did... at least, not during the visitation itself. there were always more people who needed to be talked to... i ended up spending my time alternating between socializing/hosting and taking short sanity-preserving breaks on the phone (with a Fe dom, lol). i would really have just appreciated the warmth and familiarity and security and camaraderie of my mom, though, even for a short time, and she was right there... and yet never there. she sat with me eventually once it was all over, but by that time i didn't really need her support anymore.

    of course, she was the one who made things easier for everyone in general, and made everyone feel welcome, but there's a certain give-and-take to it... when you try to attend to everyone you end up leaving some people behind. including yourself! this is more true for SFJs, i feel like, but sometimes it seems like they're so busy caring for others that they forget their simple presence is more appreciated than whatever they're attending to. once my mom left our family table at a crowded restaurant to get ketchup for my brother... 15 minutes later she returned with it, and we were pretty much done. she was upset when we said we just wish she would have stayed. she thought she was making things better, but she wasn't. she just excluded herself from being a participant, and everyone missed her. it happens with my Fe dom (ENFJ) best friend too. she's ditched plans on very short notice on me a few times before to attend to one of her neighbors who has borderline pd and has occasional tantrums. on one hand, i totally understand and i respect her even more for being willing to help her neighbor like that... but on the other hand, i've been kind of hurt, because it has seemed like she didn't care enough about me to bother asking if i minded (which of course i don't, and i know she knows that, but i would have appreciated an indication that me, and our plans, are still important to her).

    i just feel like there's a certain prioritization that occurs in my mind that doesn't seem to occur to the Fe dom/aux i know as much - or, at least, doesn't manifest in the same way. sometimes it's just like they get so busy attending to everyone that they overlook the heart of the matter. like, the point of eating out with my family isn't eating, it's with my family. i know mom meant to be a caretaker, but she missed what really mattered to us. she was trying to show her love through works, but we really wanted her to just be. haha, wow, that almost sounds zen or something. but also if my best friend or mom wants me, it doesn't really matter who else i'm talking to, or how everyone else around me is faring (provided no one is getting really hurt physically or psychologically, of course, obviously emergencies always come first). but bar any emergencies, i'm going to attend to my best friends and family preferentially. Ne doms are sometimes accused of going after what's shiny and new, but i have to point out that Fe dom/aux seem to do the same thing with people... it's not always a bad thing. it's often good. it just has a dark side, too.

    so it all kind of ties into what cafe said about there not being enough of her to go around. i feel like i would spread myself thin if i tried to take care of everyone, but i know i can do a very good job with a small amount of people. so i feel like i have an inner circle i take care of, and certain other people will "light up" on my radar and become an ad-hoc part of my inner circle if they're especially ignored or hurt or left out (that whole "taking care of the underdog" thing). and back to the party situation, a lot of people - usually Js and ExxPs - do just fine at events on their own. they don't really need, and moreover may not even really want, my extra attention.

    so, yeah. just wanted to share why/how the hosting thing Fe dom/aux do, even though it's usually awesome in terms of whole-group stuff, could also be a frustrating POV for an NFP to deal with. and i do see how just taking care of a select group can have its dark side, too. i just happened to be born Fi, lol.

    i'm still a proponent of Fe and Fi working best together.
    Last edited by skylights; 11-03-2010 at 03:27 PM. Reason: oh god i wrote a wall of text. MUST KILL IT

  3. #793
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree with you - there definitely needs to be balance! I think as I've gotten older I'm getting better at realizing that I can spread myself so thin that I don't really end up helping anyone. I also used to tend to prioritize according to who was most urgently demanding my attention, which was not fair to the other people who had been waiting. I'm getting better at promising less and delivering more.

    To your mum, the need for making someone happy by bringing them something they wanted for their meal usurped the overarching value - spending time together. I think that's something that Fe people have to constantly keep remembering, even for their own selves - what is the most important thing here.

    One of my tendancies is also to feel frustrated and unsupported when I am forced to take on something that I cannot do alone, but there are not enough people to help. When those things happen to people close to me, I see myself as an extension of them and try to be there to make it work. However, with my close Fi people, I realized they don't see that as part of being loyal or supportive. It's a whole separate issue and they don't understand why I'm feeling mad at them for not helping with something that isn't their job. I've learned to ask more often when I need help and also to accept it without becoming angry if they decide not to, even if they aren't busy at that time.

    I think it was good that you at least asked your mum for some time. Sometimes I've found that it helps to even ask the Fe person to schedule it in, because then it feels more urgent (like they would be letting you down) and it is more likely to happen.

  4. #794
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    Yes fidelia, you captured what I meant about "babysitting".

  5. #795
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    So caring about intentions, if not Fe, would that be Ni?

  6. #796
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    Thanks Skylights for sharing your story. The parallel that came to mind is how horrible Fi doms - INFPs can be at boundaries and pouring all their time and effort into the first person who demands the attention. Having dated some INFPs I found this very frustrating. The differences between Fe vs Fi, or more accurately FP vs FJ in regards to giving "too much" or losing sight of loved ones is as follows:

    1) Fe will look to help greateset good and put themselves out there, Fe is more proactive, initiating, and take responsibility for the larger group. It can seem 'indiscriminate' because the user is casting such a wide net or trying to fulfill a role for a number of people that people and projects can fall through the netting.

    2) Fi is more receptive and gets very focused on the person immediately in front of them who is demanding their attention. They can seem indiscriminate because they got so caught up with whoever happens to be there at the moment to the detriment of other people and other responsibilities. It almost seems like it's something that just happens to them more than something that they actively seek out, someone who needs attention keeps demanding more and more from the Fi and the Fi obliges.

    I feel like in my exprience it's more about if it's 'J' or 'P' that makes a big difference in how the situation resolves when you think a loved one is being neglectful or being pulled away from your relationship. I trust a J a lot more than a P in my experience to take what you tell them to heart and make a concerted and successful effort to change. I feel if you just tell an Fe user how you value them and how their behavior is affectng you that you can go from there. I basically trust that a 'J' has more control than a 'P'.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  7. #797
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I feel like in my exprience it's more about if it's 'J' or 'P' that makes a big difference in how the situation resolves when you think a loved one is being neglectful or being pulled away from your relationship. I trust a J a lot more than a P in my experience to take what you tell them to heart and make a concerted and successful effort to change. I feel if you just tell an Fe user how you value them and how their behavior is affectng you that you can go from there. I basically trust that a 'J' has more control than a 'P'.
    I don't disagree with the first part of your post, but I disagree with this part (or how I am understanding it). I very much take what people tell me to heart & make concerted efforts to change if its needed, efforts which I think are successful. What you may not get from a Fi-dom is a concession in the moment; this is because it needs to be digested internally & alone. Since Fe seems to sort out feelings well with others, they often make some resolution in the moment. I have found many Fe-ers eager to make the resolution, but then fall back quickly into old habits. With a Fi-dom, you may see a gradual change, but one which may be more permanent. There's also the issue of behavior changing based on specific points or on general principles. Fi-doms will adjust to meet a principle, but maybe not according to the prescribed method.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't disagree with the first part of your post, but I disagree with this part (or how I am understanding it). I very much take what people tell me to heart & make concerted efforts to change if its needed, efforts which I think are successful. What you may not get from a Fi-dom is a concession in the moment; this is because it needs to be digested internally & alone. Since Fe seems to sort out feelings well with others, they often make some resolution in the moment. I have found many Fe-ers eager to make the resolution, but then fall back quickly into old habits. With a Fi-dom, you may see a gradual change, but one which may be more permanent. There's also the issue of behavior changing based on specific points or on general principles. Fi-doms will adjust to meet a principle, but maybe not according to the prescribed method.
    I noticed this with my esfj mother. I have to remind her continuously how I don't like something she does. She applies general principals/guidelines and assumes one way generally works with everyone. This might work ok with people who operate similar to her, or what she's familiar with, but anyone with individual needs.. is a real shock to the system. She adapts the rules to the person. Whereas, I never assume anything about a person and I create 'rules' to suit the individual person or individual situation very carefully, after analysis and observation. I take any feedback to heart really. It hits me immediately, and sometimes takes a while to process...

  9. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    So caring about intentions, if not Fe, would that be Ni?
    *ahem*

  10. #800
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    It's not that I don't care about intentions at all, it's just that even if I believe a person doesn't have bad intentions if they keep doing things that cause problems for others it begins to overshadow their intentions. At some point you've got to (wo)man up and take responsibility for the outcomes.

    OTOH, if someone is doing the right things, but doesn't have good intentions I'm going to be cautious because sooner or later whatever is motivating them is either not going to be there or it's not going to be enough motivation to keep them doing the right thing.

    And the thing about intentions is that you can only guess about those while actions are pretty obvious.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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