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  1. #741
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    What is a "feeling tone"?

  2. #742
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I've always felt that at a high level, "feeling judgments" were kind of a mental shorthand, in which experience and understanding are recorded for future reference. It's not recorded in anything resembling a "logical manner", yet the judgments are no less true or accurate, thereby.

    It's so much more than "feelings" or "values" or "subjectivity."

    Indeed, at its best, it is "wisdom."


    it's a type of knowledge, just like T is. it's just a different kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    I can see my question isn't going to get answered.
    not to be a jerk, but there have been a lot of questions in this thread that haven't been answered. it's the nature of such a fast-moving thread. instead of passive-aggressively stating that, why not just restate your question? i imagine most people would be happy to answer it, but not so happy to dig back through pages and posts to find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    A feeling tone, for me, doesn't immediately generate a value judgment, though, and that may partly be because I have interrupted that process. I don't take it at face-value because I'm repulsed by certainty and taking one's gut feelings as gospel, partly because I've seen so much of what can happen when people do that and their guts are wrong. So it has to go through a testing prodecure (which, like you say, gets shortened with practice and other times takes longer if I haven't encountered that particular phenomenon yet).
    well, my Te is pretty good, and i kind of see what you mean but i think that there is a value judgment inherent to Fi on some basis - and that we can use Te to reconsider how valid that value judgment is on its own. i don't think that anyone but a very immature Fi dom (maybe aux) would take their emotions to be gospel, but rather it's more likely that one's emotions are tainting their value judgments, because in one situation you might value a certain thing, but with change in emotion, other things become more important. i almost wonder if you're also using your Si in this case, to compare baselines - to tell if you're being thrown off from the usual or not.

  3. #743
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Could be. At this point I'm really just fed up with this thread. It's giving me unpleasant feeling tones.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

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    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Could be. At this point I'm really just fed up with this thread. It's giving me unpleasant feeling tones.
    yeahhh

    sorry if any of those came from me

  5. #745
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Could be. At this point I'm really just fed up with this thread. It's giving me unpleasant feeling tones.
    Typical Fe-Fi Ho-Hum reaction...
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  6. #746
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    Wow, I have no idea what you guys are talking about. But this:
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I have a feeling (value assessment) about probably everything I do and see in my world.

    From the moment I wake up until I go to bed, if I pay attention, I could relate to you a value assessment about every aspect of my day. Here on the forums was where I first realized this to be true, and became aware it was not true for most other people.
    ..sounds exhausting...

    Fi is like the angel on my shoulder. Or sometimes a kick in the nuts.
    I mostly associate it with the kind of empathy that I can't ignore. That's usually a negative feeling. Or with the kind of bliss associated with art that moves me deeply. Perhaps I'm not talking about Fi at all. Meh, who cares.


    I have a question regarding Fe aux users though:
    Fe is a judging function right? So what is the perceiving function that feeds it? For INFJ, supposedly Ni. How does this make sense? Introverted intuition is focused inward and on possibilities. How does this feed information about external standards and "feeling tones" to Fe to make judgments? (I'm thinking in terms of process flow, because that's how this stuff is described.)
    If Fe is tuned into the standards/feelings of others, how does it perceive these things? How can it strictly be a judging function?
    And if we perceive stuff other than via the 4 perceiving functions, isn't the CF model flawed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #747
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I'll let others answer about their experiences, but theoretically aux Fe (for IFJ) supports the primary perception mechanism. In other words, it takes the internal vision for the world and enacts it in the external world -- it's a way of structuring external reality to mirror the inside. That's also how aux Te would work (for ITJ).

    Judgement is in service to the perception. Things move from the internal outward. I think this is different than aux Pe, where data is being collected and zapped into the primary.

    Introverts do theoretically have a three-part movement -- flow from inside to the external (to ping the external world), then back inside. I'm wondering if Ji+Pe and Pi+Je emphasize two different pairings within this three-part directional flow... or some other weird permutation.

    And if we perceive stuff other than via the 4 perceiving functions, isn't the CF model flawed?


    Yeah, CF gives complete data coverage from the "raw data (S)" + "ramifications of data (N)" perspective, but I'm not sure things can be broken down that way, realistically -- can we 100% truly separate the duties of the labeled Perceiving functions from the Judging functions? It's a convenience leaving things isolated so we can more easily talk about them.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #748
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'll let others answer about their experiences, but theoretically aux Fe (for IFJ) supports the primary perception mechanism. In other words, it takes the internal vision for the world and enacts it in the external world -- it's a way of structuring external reality to mirror the inside. That's also how aux Te would work (for ITJ).
    If it's enacting an internal view as you say, then how does this correspond to Fe? Wouldn't this kind of Fe look very different from a Fe-dom's Fe?

    If they are so different, why lump them together? If they are the same, what is the common mechanism?
    It's a convenience leaving things isolated so we can more easily talk about them.
    Is it convenient? I find it highly inconvenient if it has no correspondence to how things actually work. I want a model that improves my understanding of how this stuff actually works - how psychic energy flows and connects us to our environment - not one that just helps us to talk about stuff.
    Don't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #749
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    If it's enacting an internal view as you say, then how does this correspond to Fe? Wouldn't this kind of Fe look very different from a Fe-dom's Fe?
    Well, I am glad you thought of highlighting this... I think it would have to be. Maybe that explains some of the differences in experience being described here by people with functions in different positions. Fe dom has to look different than Fe aux, even if there are similarities. (Note how tertiary Ti looks in INFJs, for example, compared to primary INTPs.)

    But I think this is inherent in the eight-role Beebe model that EricB and others have discussed; even if that system might seem a little contrived, at least it recognizes that functions in different positions serve different roles.

    If they are so different, why lump them together? If they are the same, what is the common mechanism?
    Good question.
    Still thinking...

    Is it convenient? I find it highly inconvenient if it has no correspondence to how things actually work. I want a model that improves my understanding of how this stuff actually works - how psychic energy flows and connects us to our environment - not one that just helps us to talk about stuff. Don't you?[/
    Of course.

    Spin it around in your head, Morgan: I think it's convenient when we are interested in examining tangible data vs perceived connections between data. It's not convenient if we want to look at other things.

    For example (completely random example), sometimes it's convenient to separate bears up by fur color, or sometimes by eating habits, or sometimes by size, etc. It depends on what we are trying to learn about bears. It doesn't mean that just because we want to look at size differences in bears right now that viewing them through some other lens is always a lie.

    No model is perfect. So we use an assortment of models, like tools in a tool belt, to solve the problem at hand. That way we can come at something from different angles and see what works.

    To summarize, the way we decide to frame the discussion is driven by the problem we want to examine. Maybe CF isn't always a great framework to use, even if it's helpful to view things as "perspectives" vs the 16 MBTI types sometimes, for example.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #750
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I am glad you thought of highlighting this... I think it would have to be. Maybe that explains some of the differences in experience being described here by people with functions in different positions. Fe dom has to look different than Fe aux, even if there are similarities. (Note how tertiary Ti looks in INFJs, for example, compared to primary INTPs.)
    I guess. It's a bit woolly though. The only way we can categorise functions is by behaviour - we don't understand the neuroscience part. So if the behaviour looks different...see where I'm going?
    But I think this is inherent in the eight-role Beebe model that EricB and others have discussed; even if that system might seem a little contrived, at least it recognizes that functions in different positions serve different roles.
    Contrived, definitely. Almost astrologically so.

    No model is perfect. So we use an assortment of models, like tools in a tool belt, to solve the problem at hand. That way we can come at something from different angles and see what works.
    Well yeah. But this one purports to explain something that it does not - function dynamics. That's my problem with it.

    I'm rapidly moving towards the "function theory is a pile of pants" model.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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