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  1. #731
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    That is very helpful!

  2. #732
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    This is a very instructive thread with respect to how "feelings" actually are "rational judgments." (These are not snarky quotes, I'm just emphasizing the particular usages of the words.)

    I've always felt that at a high level, "feeling judgments" were kind of a mental shorthand, in which experience and understanding are recorded for future reference. It's not recorded in anything resembling a "logical manner", yet the judgments are no less true or accurate, thereby.

    It's so much more than "feelings" or "values" or "subjectivity."

    Indeed, at its best, it is "wisdom."

  3. #733
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    There's no good word for "Feeling". One typology author, JH Van der hoop (Conscious Orientation - old but interesting book), suggests "Sentiment" as an alternative, but it too has connotations of emotion. That doesn't bother me so much as the idea that people will still confuse it directly with emotion.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #734
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I can see my question isn't going to get answered.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's as natural as breathing, but just as a point of clarity I don't consciously say those things to myself all day long. Paying attention to your thoughts though, and unwinding the value assessments attached to them, is enlightening.
    Oh well I do this...I have periods of introspection where I examine my thoughts and my value assessments ...I think of my Ne as like this magical tool that picks up and sorts out all of these divergent concepts and ideas for me then suddenly it will fall together into a cohesive theory or an ethical question to ponder...or in school as the topic of the next ten page paper I had to write.

  6. #736
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    I can see my question isn't going to get answered.
    Which question? The one about the straw that broke the camel's back?
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  7. #737
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Totally agree with PeaceBaby on this one. Pretty much every idea, action and person I encounter throughout the day has a Feeling evaluation/tone attached. This is particularly true of my own actions, but everything I encounter has some Feeling tone attached. It's not always about good/bad per se, but may be about evaluations of aesthetics or simply an evaluation of similar/dissimilar. Still, it's pretty much continuous and my emotional reactions feed into those ongoing assessments (although the emotions are only input, not the evaluations themselves).
    And this is a nice expansion on my post - it is not just "input" that generates the feelings, it's "output" as well, creating this continuous cycle. What is in the world, and how I act in the world, and how the world reacts to me - none are exempt from value assessment, and it circles around and around.

    For example, I can speak to someone, and get a "wrong" feeling about what I said or what I heard, that it wasn't quite the right thing to say, or their reaction to what I said reveals that there may be more to the situation. Since conversations continually generate more feelings in me, I circle 'round, examining and reexamining, digging deeper to assess the origin point of the feelings. Much of this happens in split-second time, so receiving the feelings, reacting appropriately, receiving new input, producing more output, can be very energy depleting.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    There's no good word for "Feeling". One typology author, JH Van der hoop (Conscious Orientation - old but interesting book), suggests "Sentiment" as an alternative, but it too has connotations of emotion. That doesn't bother me so much as the idea that people will still confuse it directly with emotion.
    I agree with this as well. It's not about emotion, and I think that's a very significant point of confusion. What other words work ... ethics, values ... nothing is quite right.

    We need to invent a new word!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #738
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And this is a nice expansion on my post - it is not just "input" that generates the feelings, it's "output" as well, creating this continuous cycle. What is in the world, and how I act in the world, and how the world reacts to me - none are exempt from value assessment, and it circles around and around.

    For example, I can speak to someone, and get a "wrong" feeling about what I said or what I heard, that it wasn't quite the right thing to say, or their reaction to what I said reveals that there may be more to the situation. Since conversations continually generate more feelings in me, I circle 'round, examining and reexamining, digging deeper to assess the origin point of the feelings. Much of this happens in split-second time, so receiving the feelings, reacting appropriately, receiving new input, producing more output, can be very energy depleting.
    I see a lot of similarity between the two Ji functions, when you explain it like this. It's pretty much the same for me -- every idea, every perception, instinctively gets a "truth" assessment attached (and I can't even quantify it, it's more like a light where it burns more and more brightly the more potentially "true" it is).

    Likewise, when someone makes a claim, I immediately get a "feel" about it. I don't have to immediately know what was wrong with it, I just sense immediate incongruence and the degree of it... although the incongruence could be on their part or it could be a mistake in how I was framing things. It's all in-the-moment, intuitive, sort of like realizing the water you are swimming in has dropped a degree in temperature or that perhaps your sense of balance in your inner ear is registering that you're not quite upright.

    I then have to parse through it rationally, lickety-split, to see what the sore spot might be. The more experience one gets in examining those feelings, the more patterns one gets stored involving various sorts of errors, the more rapid that process is... sometimes the recognization of what is wrong comes immediately, sometimes it needs more thought.

    I'm only stating it here since they ARE both Ji functions, so one would expect them to be related in terms of functioning, and maybe it will convey the idea to other T's of how F is functioning here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #739
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I see a lot of similarity between the two Ji functions, when you explain it like this. It's pretty much the same for me -- every idea, every perception, instinctively gets a "truth" assessment attached (and I can't even quantify it, it's more like a light where it burns more and more brightly the more potentially "true" it is).

    Likewise, when someone makes a claim, I immediately get a "feel" about it. I don't have to immediately know what was wrong with it, I just sense immediate incongruence and the degree of it... although the incongruence could be on their part or it could be a mistake in how I was framing things. It's all in-the-moment, intuitive, sort of like realizing the water you are swimming in has dropped a degree in temperature or that perhaps your sense of balance in your inner ear is registering that you're not quite upright.

    I then have to parse through it rationally, lickety-split, to see what the sore spot might be. The more experience one gets in examining those feelings, the more patterns one gets stored involving various sorts of errors, the more rapid that process is... sometimes the recognization of what is wrong comes immediately, sometimes it needs more thought.

    I'm only stating it here since they ARE both Ji functions, so one would expect them to be related in terms of functioning, and maybe it will convey the idea to other T's of how F is functioning here.
    I know you're describing Ti but this seems more accurate to me re: how I experience Fi, than what PB describes about constant value assessments in the moment. It's a flash, a gut feeling about something. I really can't think of a better way to describe it than a feeling tone. A feeling tone, for me, doesn't immediately generate a value judgment, though, and that may partly be because I have interrupted that process. I don't take it at face-value because I'm repulsed by certainty and taking one's gut feelings as gospel, partly because I've seen so much of what can happen when people do that and their guts are wrong. So it has to go through a testing prodecure (which, like you say, gets shortened with practice and other times takes longer if I haven't encountered that particular phenomenon yet).

    Maybe what I'm describing is what happens when a person is forced to develop inferior Te early in life alongside primary Fi, to keep a runaway Fi in check. I recall making a conscious choice as a young adult to develop my intellect (this was before I knew much about MBTI) because I saw myself as capricious and led by emotion, but was surrounded by capricious people who were led by their emotions too, and they were not leading themselves right IMO.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #740
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ A feeling tone, by it's very nature, contains a value assessment, a rational judgement, a sense of "rightness" or "wrongness".

    If there wasn't an internal assessment before you felt your "ring of truth" you wouldn't get any "feelings" at all. Do you just get "feelings" and have no idea whether they are good or bad, or what they mean at the time you receive them?

    I don't see anything from my previous posts to suggest I take those feelings fully at face value either, or don't critically examine them. Are you getting that impression from any of my posts or are you enhancing the ideas already put forth?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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