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  1. #711
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Regarding uumlau's post....

    My ISFJ mom does that a LOT to people. I'll vent to her, and even though she agrees the other person was in the wrong, she proceeds to tell me what I could've done differently to get a better outcome. All I wanted was someone to say, "Man, that does suck". It makes me feel WORSE that some wrong was gotten away with and she presumes I could have actually stopped it. Plus, I can't go back and change the past - so why dwell on it? I vented to get it out of my head & move on.

    Particularly with NFPs, Ne provides an exhaustive list of ways to do stuff anyway. To imply we did not consider something is kind of insulting. Most of the time, when my mom suggests an alternative, I had a good reason for not doing it. She'll say, "Why didn't you do X?" and I'll say, "Because of Y, X was not possible", and then she just says "Oh". As more details comes to light, it gets clearer and clearer that I acted in the best way that the reality of the situation allowed.

    If I did not, then there is the issue that I may have already figured out where I went wrong. Once again, it's semi-insulting to assume I can't figure out how to improve my approach in the future. In talking with my mom, I find I have to preemptively own up to flaws in my approach so she doesn't jump on the chance to "correct" me. Then, she suddenly becomes all sympathy....

    Sometimes, the Fe-ers advice is very helpful though, but mostly when it's been asked for. It's also helpful when something goes wrong for the Fe-er to NOT just imagine what you did wrong, but to also consider the other people involved. I have an ENFJ friend who is a great comfort when I beat myself up over little things - he'll suggest why they other person may have acted the way they did without it being much to do with me personally. It amounts to, "No matter what you did, that person may have reacted that way because it was not about you or your approach".

    Haha - I identify with tons of this stuff from a Ti to Te perspective. You're absolutely right that we do all of that!

    It's funny what you say about preemptively owning up to flaws. I have a real tendancy to do that. In fact, I asked Udog for some constructive criticism, but before letting him go ahead, I listed some of the things that I thought were probably issues for me or were part of the flaws others would perceive in me. It's a difference in approach to communication. I want the other person to know what things I've considered and what I still need their input on. I probably wouldn't say anything to them about what happened if I think it's obvious that I could have approached it better and what I could have done. I think that is why they are more likely to jump in with advice. It's being misread as presenting a problem to solve.

    I find myself also avoiding getting work critiqued until I have improved it as much as possible on my own. I want people to be seeing my best effort and only helping me on the parts that I really am stuck or can't see with my own eyes because I'm too close or lack information/knowledge/insight.

    One of the reasons that I tell people about a situation where I acted in a particular way is to get either their support, or alternately their reaction so I can decide whether perhaps I acted without enough information or thought. Therefore, it would be natural to offer the same in return. I'm seeing that on so many things our aims and our methods are very different, depending on what functions we use. Therefore talking about how to go about something is almost kind of irrelevant, considering that we may be doing it for different reasons or aiming at different results.

    With ideas, I'm much more about the best end product rather than seeing things evolve more organically (I think that's Ti). Even LL's post about her brainstorming made me feel twitchy. While I'm not as extreme as her husband's repetition that 42 is the answer (with no explanation as to why), I do find myself not liking a bunch of Ne leaping around until people have run it by their internal filter first of what may work and what may not. I'm understanding better now though that to do that, perhaps they have to talk about it, like Fe has to articulate things to wade through how they feel and sort/discard/keep whatever is important to do so with.

  2. #712
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I just read basically a weeks worth of postings in one sitting, my head is exploding, will post more when I have some thing coherent to say. Thoughts just have to slot into place....I do have to say this, if you read this all in one go, it's quite illuminating. Just not for the faint hearted.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  3. #713
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah there's some good stuff there, but I agree - easier to keep up with one day at a go.

  4. #714
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Particularly with NFPs, Ne provides an exhaustive list of ways to do stuff anyway. To imply we did not consider something is kind of insulting. Most of the time, when my mom suggests an alternative, I had a good reason for not doing it. She'll say, "Why didn't you do X?" and I'll say, "Because of Y, X was not possible", and then she just says "Oh". As more details comes to light, it gets clearer and clearer that I acted in the best way that the reality of the situation allowed.
    In my extensive experience with ISFJs, I've found the same things. My problem is that I really would assume even the ability to instinctively brainstorm and see some basic alternate pathways to the norm, but at least with the ISFJs in the subculture I'm used to, they really only ever saw the "norm" and didn't even realize there were forks in the road to be examined! So I would take it as an insult as well. I realized I really needed to specifically "feed them" the possibilities and suddenly they were able to track with me.

    If I did not, then there is the issue that I may have already figured out where I went wrong. Once again, it's semi-insulting to assume I can't figure out how to improve my approach in the future. In talking with my mom, I find I have to preemptively own up to flaws in my approach so she doesn't jump on the chance to "correct" me. Then, she suddenly becomes all sympathy....
    That's the funny thing with ISFJ. They can seem like they are stonewalling you or judging you unfairly... but actually if you tap into their attachments to others, that's the way around it. Once they "get it," the sympathy/relationship attachment comes into play and then they're supportive.

    I'm still learning to do this, though. For a long time I just stopped bothered to talk to them because of the judgment thing, whereas the right solution was to engage and explain and that allows them to bring positive Fe into play as now they understand and can offer sympathy, whereas before it was negative Fe being used to beat you into their Si approach to the problem.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #715
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    What I was hoping for in return was a statement to explain what the Fi thought process is like that would allow someone to arrive at a different conclusion.
    Are you looking for me to explain the thought processes behind the work example?

    It's well after the fact, but if it would be of use I will attempt to recreate them.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #716
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, that would be great!

  7. #717
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Haha - I identify with tons of this stuff from a Ti to Te perspective. You're absolutely right that we do all of that!

    It's funny what you say about preemptively owning up to flaws. I have a real tendancy to do that. In fact, I asked Udog for some constructive criticism, but before letting him go ahead, I listed some of the things that I thought were probably issues for me or were part of the flaws others would perceive in me. It's a difference in approach to communication. I want the other person to know what things I've considered and what I still need their input on. I probably wouldn't say anything to them about what happened if I think it's obvious that I could have approached it better and what I could have done. I think that is why they are more likely to jump in with advice. It's being misread as presenting a problem to solve.
    There is most definitely an issue of misreading why that person has come to you. I suppose because you would not talk about something if you already know where it wrong makes you think that others are the same, so the NFP's talking seems like its asking for input & not just sympathy.

    I think the NFP mindset may lead us to give the benefit of the doubt - again, we assume the best. We assume that the person has tried the best route possible, or the best they as an individual are capable of. There's also a recognizing that my way or the group way simply may not suit that individual's feeling. I can't know this until I learn more about the situation. In typical NP fashion, I reserve judgment until I can see more of the whole picture.

    This is not to say I never offer unsolicited advice or get the picture wrong either. Everyone makes an error in judgment or perception sometimes, or you get so eager to help you just jump in with it. Sometimes, I can see the error, and the person has fed me all the info, but they still don't want advice. If I am not sure, then I feel them out with questions.

    I suppose the negative side of this is when someone wants feedback. I've had people tell me to spit it out - they see the wheels turning and want my opinion, but I'm hesitant to give it because I think I may be missing a piece of the puzzle. Then my opinion comes out somewhat "passive" - in the form of questions or generalities or ways which avoid pointing a finger. One thing I do sometimes is say something like, "Well, I understand how you'd come to that conclusion, but have you considered X? Is that even possible?". Instead of stating they should have tried X, because I don't know if they did. I guess this can result in not being taken seriously though.

    I find myself also avoiding getting work critiqued until I have improved it as much as possible on my own. I want people to be seeing my best effort and only helping me on the parts that I really am stuck or can't see with my own eyes because I'm too close or lack information/knowledge/insight.
    I definitely don't like partial work to be critiqued either. The perfectionist in me wants it as flawless as possible. Honestly, this can be what makes me hyper-sensitive to criticism - I have spent so much time on the idea and perfecting it that it's hard to take when someone dismisses it or jumps to note the flaws in a mere matter of seconds. I think this is just an NF thing, possibly. We want people to see & acknowledge the overall value first, because we know how much blood, sweat & tears went into it. NFPs may be asking for that when relating a situation - see the main point & acknowledge what I did right first. I may then offer up my own thoughts on where I could improve.

    One of the reasons that I tell people about a situation where I acted in a particular way is to get either their support, or alternately their reaction so I can decide whether perhaps I acted without enough information or thought. Therefore, it would be natural to offer the same in return.
    I suppose its because you're more apt to judge regarding the external, so you need confirmation of your judgment having enough backing. For an NFP, we perceive the external, and so our blindspot is not about how much info taken in or possibilities considered, but how it is evaluated. I was depressed when after losing my job, my perfect credit went down the drain & my savings was depleted trying to live. My mom helped me put my feelings in perspective - "it's just money, and that can always be earned & lost."

    I do find myself not liking a bunch of Ne leaping around until people have run it by their internal filter first of what may work and what may not. I'm understanding better now though that to do that, perhaps they have to talk about it, like Fe has to articulate things to wade through how they feel and sort/discard/keep whatever is important to do so with.
    Being an introvert, I still do my sorting internally. I may like to bounce ideas back & forth with people, but it's going to tire me. I prefer to evaluate them first, to some degree. I think an INFP sharing ideas is a bit more vulnerable than an ENFP, in this sense - there is already a feeling attached to them. ENFPs can be quite sensitive, but less so if their idea is not anything they've thought out very well, and they share those more readily. In some ways, I repress what could have been good ideas because I've already evaluated them myself. I think the way Ne-doms operate is less inhibiting to themselves.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #718
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah, that would be great!
    Now that I've offered, I find myself stymied. Are you looking to find something that will appear to contrast an "Fe Approach"?

    Maybe it will help me to rewind a little and ask you - what do you mean by thought processes? Are you looking for the adaptive reasoning I used in this situation? Are you looking for some in-depth, step-by-step analysis of the order of events and what happened at each step? Do you need to know all of the options I considered before I chose that approach? Any heuristics involved?

    LOL, I guess I could make a logic tree in jthinker ...

    I feel like you need to believe the facts before you'll believe me, but you do realize I could wend the facts any way I wish? And that they are besides the point of the example? Now, since the goal was to see the changes implemented, and that did take place, there technically was no failure. But I know that you believe there was some way I could have kept my job and the changes be implemented too.

    Sorry to somehow over-complicate this, but if you can help me understand what you need, I will do my best to provide.

    EDIT: and you know, I gave it as an example of "Fi Gone Awry" because I did end up politely being "asked to leave", you see what I mean? (I didn't actually think it was a "lose your job" issue!)

    "Fi Gone Well" are other stories!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #719
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think the NFP mindset may lead us to give the benefit of the doubt - again, we assume the best. We assume that the person has tried the best route possible, or the best they as an individual are capable of. There's also a recognizing that my way or the group way simply may not suit that individual's feeling. [...]

    I suppose its because you're more apt to judge regarding the external, so you need confirmation of your judgment having enough backing. For an NFP, we perceive the external, and so our blindspot is not about how much info taken in or possibilities considered, but how it is evaluated.


    ENFPs can be quite sensitive, but less so if their idea is not anything they've thought out very well, and they share those more readily.
    yeah, that's true. sometimes i just bounce random crazy shit off the top of my head. it's usually pretty hit-or-miss... i think we can be dismissed quickly because of that tendency, too. i have a hard time dealing with very serious people because of this. always serious is just too confining and tedious of a way of life for me. some of the best ideas come from random fuck-ups and impromptu 3 am brainstorms.

  10. #720
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Now that I've offered, I find myself stymied. Are you looking to find something that will appear to contrast an "Fe Approach"?

    Maybe it will help me to rewind a little and ask you - what do you mean by thought processes? Are you looking for the adaptive reasoning I used in this situation? Are you looking for some in-depth, step-by-step analysis of the order of events and what happened at each step? Do you need to know all of the options I considered before I chose that approach? Any heuristics involved?

    LOL, I guess I could make a logic tree in jthinker ...

    I feel like you need to believe the facts before you'll believe me, but you do realize I could wend the facts any way I wish? And that they are besides the point of the example? Now, since the goal was to see the changes implemented, and that did take place, there technically was no failure. But I know that you believe there was some way I could have kept my job and the changes be implemented too.

    Sorry to somehow over-complicate this, but if you can help me understand what you need, I will do my best to provide.

    EDIT: and you know, I gave it as an example of "Fi Gone Awry" because I did end up politely being "asked to leave", you see what I mean? (I didn't actually think it was a "lose your job" issue!)

    "Fi Gone Well" are other stories!
    Nope, to me the facts are relevent but not pivotal. I understand that we're going to approach problems differently, so I'm interested in understanding how you get from the problem to the solution you take and if that process is similar for other Fi users (although value specific) or if it is different for each.

    Fe and Fi users would start with the same problems, but come up with quite different solutions. I wonder at what point our thinking starts to diverge, what kinds of other things you take into account that we don't pay as much attention to (Ti is much more detailed that Te which tends to be more practical and works only with what is instead of what ought to be, so I'm assuming Fi also is like that in some sense. I think maybe it factors in the ought rather than only the is.) and how you arrive at your ultimate conclusion or decision to act. I'm wondering what goes into your mix that makes it right for you.

    If I'm sounding can-openery, please stop me.

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