User Tag List

First 2161697071727381 Last

Results 701 to 710 of 938

  1. #701
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    3,823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I've forgotten the details of the situation, honestly. But I think I kind of understand.

    Example -- my kids go to an inner city middle school that has been badly neglected by the school corporation, so now the building is in bad shape and is in need of expensive repairs. Instead of making those repairs or replacing the building, the superintendent has decided to divide the students up between two other middle schools (after making repairs and additions to those buildings) and it has been suggested that the current building become the new corporation administration building (because we can spend money on that ).

    I'm involved with a group that is fighting to keep the school open. We made enough of a stink and with the recession cutting school budgets they could not justify spending money on expanding the other schools -- so they tabled the issue last year.

    The superintendent told the teachers at the end of last school year that he intends to have the school closed as soon as the end of this school year if possible, so some of the best teachers have left and enrollment is going down.

    I think what is being done is gross class discrimination and that it will have a negative impact on a group of kids that already have low graduation rates, etc. It's just wrong. And I'm willing to do what I can to fight it. But the thing is, we can't get much parental interest or involvement. Probably two thirds of the people I've talked to say that they don't want the school to close, that it stinks and it's wrong, but they don't want to get involved because they think it's a lost cause.

    Now personally, I don't think this is going to be a good thing for the two of my children it might effect, but they will be fine because academics come easily to them and they have two parents who are very committed to their education. So I'm not primarily involved because of personal interest.

    At this point, given the lackluster response by the folks that will actually be impacted I'm wondering if it's worth my time. I'll be visibly sticking my neck out while I still have kids in the school system -- it's even possible they might want to work in this system at a future date. I'll be taking time I could be spending doing something else to go to organizational meetings and school board meetings, etc. I mean, I can go and lodge a protest for the record because I feel very strongly about it, but beyond that? If the other parents don't care enough to make an effort for their kids and their neighborhood, why should I?

    Truth be told, though, if I knew there was a way to get actual results, I would do my best to bite my tongue and work through whatever channels it would take to get the goal accomplished -- within reason. Not saying I would be able to bite my tongue, but I would try.
    IDK what I'd do in that situation, because it's not adults suffering the consequences of their own actions, it's children. Tricky stuff.

    If I were to do something it'd probably involve LEXUS/NEXUS researching online re: resource allocation, and maybe start a Wordpress blog or online petition while being very vocal about how class is involved--a very PC issue that politicians are more likely to address.

    I probably wouldn't do a lot of things outside of the home aside from stuff that directly involved my kids. Parents need to save some stuff for them directly, and you need to save some for yourself.

    But this is all in the abstract--I don't have kids to get a feel for how tricky and sticky this situation really is.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  2. #702
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    ^ there are so many strategies to start, and the internet makes the doing, the visibility, much easier in many ways.

    The cause needs a leader, someone to get it all rolling. Is there a clear and vocal leader in your existing group?

    At any rate, this is a derail, but I will offer thoughts out of thread if asked.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #703
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    6,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Is this about the "connecting with strangers" thing? Yeah, I agree with you- it's not introversion. I'm extremely introverted- it's actually the fact that it will NOT become a committed friendship that is somewhat freeing to me. I can't maintain a whole lot of friendships, either, so I'm often more reserved with people I know I will continue seeing in passing, or who are on the "friendship periphery," if that makes sense.

    Edit: Read up the chain a bit- when it comes to "friendship periphery" I'm very much in line with what Tallulah and cafe said about not being good responders and needing to conserve energy. With the stranger thing, I don't have to project into the future how much energy I am likely to need to spend on that person, so I can just respond in the moment with the energy I have right then. It's strangely liberating, actually.
    I can relate to all of this. I'm also free sharing a lot of myself onstage, knowing it's for strangers rather than people who know a lot about me and might have a certain way they like to see me. I'm not going to share personal stuff with acquaintances that I may see from time to time, knowing they don't have any loyalty to me, or I them, and knowing how much people like to gossip. I have made that mistake before when I was younger, and it backfired on me. Many times. I learned to be careful who I shared personal stuff with. A lot of times, I found, people have ulterior motives or they're just bored and like to have knowledge about people to spread around. And they can act like they are totally concerned about you at the time.

    Morgan, I think I misunderstood your post when you talked about not caring whether we hurt others, so I was thinking in terms of people who wanted to be friends with me, since I figured total strangers wouldn't get hurt if I didn't want to share with them.

    I don't think I would call my reticence to share with non-close friends a fear, though I guess you could call it that depending on how you look at it. In my eyes, it's just learning from experience and choosing not to expose myself to people who don't have my best interests at heart. I guess we all just decide how to go at life based on our own experiences. Trusting people I don't know and having them betray my confidence makes me feel terrible, so I don't do it, and am personally a lot happier with the way I've chosen.

    But if we're talking solely about the bonding with strangers thing, I can relate to that. I used to have all kinds of interesting convos with taxi drivers when I lived in NY.
    Something Witty

  4. #704
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    I would love ideas. We have a leader -- she's a go-getter and I've tried to be as supportive as I have energy for, but none of the stuff we've done seems to have gotten us very far. We do have a local reporter, a city council member, the local Catholic Charities Community Center, and a couple of school board members on our side, but the superintendent (aka Satan) has his mind made up and he's a very good blower of smoke. And so many people don't care or think the poor/brown people don't deserve to have money spent on them. It's very discouraging.

    The mayor told us flat out that it's not the hill he's going to die on and the new principal told us that he sees his role as not trying to keep the school open, but to help it 'close it's doors with dignity.'
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #705
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    ^ It's the 11th hour then ... let's take this out of thread, k? To the walls!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #706
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    hah, well, if there's any reason to temporarily derail a thread, IRL stuff is a damn good one.

    good luck guys

  7. #707
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,708

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That's why I need descriptions of what you guys do see and the thought process that goes into it to come to a more accurate understanding. I'm glad that umlauu took the time to do that and that you also said something. I do not mean to be insulting and in piecing things together, I realize that it sounded more like a statement rather than the picture that had emerged for me thus far whose accuracy I was checking on.
    The bolded is huge. You're definitely understanding where the breakdown occurs. As an INTJ, I can tell you that it is not easy to fix. Our natural mode is to just assert our current hypothesis, but to others it doesn't sound like a hypothesis, but a declaration of truth, and in your Fe case, an accusation, where no accusation is intended.

    This is exactly how Fe unintentionally jabs Fi. In fact, such behavior very reliably types others as Fe when they do this to me. It is particularly interesting how often I spot "INTJ"s doing this very thing.


    I'm going to go into the nitpicks, here. The point isn't to rub your nose in it, but rather to show how easy it is to end up making the very accusations you don't intend to make. If this isn't a topic you want to discuss, just let me know and I'll delete this entire post. I'm hoping that sharing this helps everyone in the thread, but not at your expense, OK?
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    In PB's case (and I admit I don't know the details, nor am I saying that for sure the desired outcome would have happened if she had done things the Fe way),
    Actually, I have noticed that those with strong Fe very often start off with disclaimers like this. We Fi users tend to think, "uh oh", because it means the Fe user hasn't figured out how to say it "nicely" and is about to unload.

    An ENFJ I know will say things like, "I really respect you and what you are doing, but ..." (She's someone I love dearly, btw.) Then she unloads with her unadulterated opinion, interspersing disclaimers of not trying to personally attack, even as the rest of her statements sound like personal attacks. For my part, they mostly bounce off my Te armor, and I just take them as "her opinions on the matter" and I don't think any worse of her for offering them. In fact, I trust her opinion very much, especially on how to deal with people-problems and human relationships.

    My advice: a better caveat introduction would be, "I am trying to figure out how things happened here. I don't want to make any bad assumptions, so please let me know if I do."

    despite her publically dealing with what was ethically wrong and making sure everyone was aware of how wrong it was, the end result was:

    1) She was not present to continue making a difference
    2) The workroom was still unsafe for other employees
    3) That situation was unlikely to change.
    This bit sounds like you said, "PB failed." Not only does it sound like it, you enumerate the failures. It reads like an indictment.

    I know you weren't intending it as such, rather it is a cogent Fe analysis, in preparation for working on a new approach. I'm sure you address your own problems in this manner. I know I do, though in a more Te way. The difference is that we actually do have full knowledge of our own personal circumstances, choices and an understanding of where our responsibility lies. This is not the case when it's someone else.

    My advice: don't list out the flaws. Instead, ask what the other person took away from the experience. What was he/she proud of? What could have worked better? You'll find that an Fi user has already analyzed the hell out of the situation.

    After all, the Fi user brought it up as an example, therefore it is likely something intrinsic to the Fi user's self-understanding ... which is why the "accusations" hurt even more than you would normally expect.

    By using a little strategy and doing it privately, she may have been able to help the employer understand why this is such a big deal, how it could personally affect him and offer him an option that would allow him to still look good in front of his employees AND provide them with a safe work environment.
    This is the bit that goes along with the xkcd cartoon I posted earlier. This is a perfectly cogent analysis of the situation based on the limited information you had.

    The problem with this is that, especially in the Fi individual dealing with you as an Fe individual case, you effectively take what the Fi individual said, and "use it against them." It's a pattern I've seen over and over.

    1. An Fi person relates a personal experience.
    2. The Fe person offers well-meaning advice
    3. The Fe person expects to be corrected if the advice is unwarranted.
    4. Instead, the Fi person feels accused, wondering what is wrong, and if pressed will attack back or just leave the thread.


    This is especially true on a public forum, where people are sharing ideas, and using personal examples to show how their ideas are true, and Fe comes in and says, "Well, you could have handled that a lot better," instead of talking about the idea being shared.

    My advice: don't offer unsolicited advice. If someone is talking about X, and goes into personal tangent Y, it's OK to ask about tangent Y, but not to offer advice on tangent Y. Ideally, one should try to focus on topic X, and only clarify Y in order to better understand X.

    I'd be the first to say that she was treated very unfairly and that the employee was being unethical. I don't think she did something wrong.
    Here's another disclaimer, which means the next statement is going to do Fe analysis again. (BTW, I don't doubt your disclaimers, nor the disclaimers that my Fe friends use. It's just their way of saying they're talking about something that is difficult to talk about. I know that if they really had something against me, there would be no disclaimer, or they'd just remain silent.)

    I do think that by paying more attention to the delivery of the message though, the chances might have been higher that change may have occurred.
    In other words, given a limited description of the situation, for which you have a single witness, and no transcript, you are prepared to say that it could have been handled better. How do you know that?

    Look at it from the others' point of view: feeling accused, how do they say, "No, it was handled as well as it could be handled," without it sounding defensive, without it sounding like one is in denial? When they do say something like that, they are in fact accused of not owning up, of being defensive, irresponsible, in denial. (Not necessarily by you, but by others who have perhaps only read a fraction of the thread, motivated more by a desire to advocate responsibility than a desire to understand the original story.)

    My advice: be patient and listen, instead of offering analysis. One of the things that I've noticed when I got into question/answer mode (with Ti, for example), is that my analysis of the situation changes, sometimes drastically with each new piece of information. Ti tends to offer up what Te considers to be "tidbits" of information, and it can take a long while before enough data is present to really understand what Ti is getting at. To Te, the Ti sounds simplistic (Ti has the same opinion of Te), uttering obvious truths that don't imply anything. The trick in the Te/Ti case is to let Ti open up enough to get the key bit of information that puts everything in context.

    In other words, in your Fe/Fi case, you have a plausible context based on what you've heard so far, but if you're patient and listen, that context gets better and better, more and more informed, until you get a "real" click from your Ni, and suddenly you understand the others' perspective.

    This is how I've learned to do it - some Ni "clicks" are more certain than others. If I have a sucky click, I know I need more info and ask. If I have a strong click, I ask more directly as a hypothesis, "So you mean to say that <insert my theory here>?" and get a yes or no.

    ...

    What's a sucky click? If your intuition is saying someone whom you like and respect and is very intelligent did or said something that is boneheaded stupid or wrong or evil, that is 99.9% likely to be a sucky click. In general, assume that those with whom you converse are good, intelligent, honorable people, and treat them as such. Reject intuitions that imply they're stupid or despicable. They will, by and large, feel your respect and respond in kind.

    Don't worry, the 0.1% will prove their poor character to you soon enough, and you'll be able to handle them appropriately.

    The remainder will teach you for the rest of your life, because the sucky clicks mean you have something to learn.

  8. #708
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,087

    Default

    I agree completely with your analysis. In the time that has intervened, and from the point of retrospect it is much easier to see where it all falls apart. To some extent back there, I was intentionally being more unvarnished than I ever would be in real life or even have been in the past on here. Usually I would choose to say nothing instead and change the subject either to avoid waves or because I don't want to hurt or make someone feel attacked. I thought since this is about our differences and understanding the thought process better, that I would state what I and several other Fe users would be most likely to think when looking at a situation like that. What I was hoping for in return was a statement to explain what the Fi thought process is like that would allow someone to arrive at a different conclusion. Obviously, if something seems that much different in the way we would approach it, there must be other information to factor in that I hadn't considered or couldn't see. Because Ti is very rigid in some ways and reluctant to change something where a lot of effort has been invested, I find it easy to assume that Te users are the same way in their assertions, when in fact they are more open to reconfiguring than I would be. I'm wondering if Fi users assume the same with Fe because it sounds so sure of itself. I admit, there is always a bias towards thinking our way makes more "sense" or that it's right, much like I believe there is with Te users. However, both are perhaps much more malleable than the introverted functions tend to assume.

    Strangely enough, I understand complete feeling attacked by Te, which deems itself Right in a similar way. Sometimes I even feel that if I want to give all the supporting details that would help them understand, Te users get impatient and feel I'm giving a lot of extraneous details that they'd rather not attend to because they already have a handle on it. I can see that I do the same thing with Fe. They argue things as a statement of fact, hoping to see where I disagree and how if I do. I become overwhelmed by all of the details I would like to cram in, knowing that at any time their interest could cut off in mid thought and it would make even less sense to them, having heard the incompleted amount of half-explained information. I'm assuming this is also how it feels from the other angle.

    I appreciated your explanation of how it would be better received and how I would eventually get to a point where I could understand the thought process better (this honestly is the sticking point for me. If I go issue by issue, I only understand that issue. If I understand the process that gets people to their decisions, it helps me understand their approach to many things).

    I especially found the part about introductions/disclaimers useful. For me, I actually become annoyed when people phrase things in the way that you suggested I should, so it feels strange and like something I wouldn't think of to do so that way. I'd prefer people to approach me with disclaimers so that I know their regard for me is not down the tubes, but that they disagree in some way. I guess it's a matter (as with so many things) of both people learning to speak the language the other person best responds to).

  9. #709
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Regarding uumlau's post....

    My ISFJ mom does that a LOT to people. I'll vent to her, and even though she agrees the other person was in the wrong, she proceeds to tell me what I could've done differently to get a better outcome. All I wanted was someone to say, "Man, that does suck". It makes me feel WORSE that some wrong was gotten away with and she presumes I could have actually stopped it. Plus, I can't go back and change the past - so why dwell on it? I vented to get it out of my head & move on.

    Particularly with NFPs, Ne provides an exhaustive list of ways to do stuff anyway. To imply we did not consider something is kind of insulting. Most of the time, when my mom suggests an alternative, I had a good reason for not doing it. She'll say, "Why didn't you do X?" and I'll say, "Because of Y, X was not possible", and then she just says "Oh". As more details comes to light, it gets clearer and clearer that I acted in the best way that the reality of the situation allowed.

    If I did not, then there is the issue that I may have already figured out where I went wrong. Once again, it's semi-insulting to assume I can't figure out how to improve my approach in the future. In talking with my mom, I find I have to preemptively own up to flaws in my approach so she doesn't jump on the chance to "correct" me. Then, she suddenly becomes all sympathy....

    Sometimes, the Fe-ers advice is very helpful though, but mostly when it's been asked for. It's also helpful when something goes wrong for the Fe-er to NOT just imagine what you did wrong, but to also consider the other people involved. I have an ENFJ friend who is a great comfort when I beat myself up over little things - he'll suggest why they other person may have acted the way they did without it being much to do with me personally. It amounts to, "No matter what you did, that person may have reacted that way because it was not about you or your approach".
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #710
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Regarding uumlau's post....

    My ISFJ mom does that a LOT to people. I'll vent to her, and even though she agrees the other person was in the wrong, she proceeds to tell me what I could've done differently to get a better outcome. All I wanted was someone to say, "Man, that does suck". It makes me feel WORSE that some wrong was gotten away with and she presumes I could have actually stopped it. Plus, I can't go back and change the past - so why dwell on it? I vented to get it out of my head & move on.

    Particularly with NFPs, Ne provides an exhaustive list of ways to do stuff anyway. To imply we did not consider something is kind of insulting. Most of the time, when my mom suggests an alternative, I had a good reason for not doing it. She'll say, "Why didn't you do X?" and I'll say, "Because of Y, X was not possible", and then she just says "Oh". As more details comes to light, it gets clearer and clearer that I acted in the best way that the reality of the situation allowed.

    If I did not, then there is the issue that I may have already figured out where I went wrong. Once again, it's semi-insulting to assume I can't figure out how to improve my approach in the future. In talking with my mom, I find I have to preemptively own up to flaws in my approach so she doesn't jump on the chance to "correct" me. Then, she suddenly becomes all sympathy....

    Sometimes, the Fe-ers advice is very helpful though, but mostly when it's been asked for. It's also helpful when something goes wrong for the Fe-er to NOT just imagine what you did wrong, but to also consider the other people involved. I have an ENFJ friend who is a great comfort when I beat myself up over little things - he'll suggest why they other person may have acted the way they did without it being much to do with me personally. It amounts to, "No matter what you did, that person may have reacted that way because it was not about you or your approach".
    There are INFJs who give great advice. ISFJs I've noticed more just being supportive, but I guess in a position of being a mother the ISFJ could become more "nagging." My ISFJ sister doesn't do that, she's far more receptive than my ENFJ sister...my ENFJ sister loves to give people unsolicited advice on how they should behave.

Similar Threads

  1. When Fe meets Fi......
    By RedAmazoneFriendZone in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 05-15-2016, 08:09 AM
  2. Fe vs. Fi, Disloyalty, Allegiance, Or the Lack Thereof…
    By Esoteric Wench in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 01-13-2011, 07:55 PM
  3. [NT] Fe and Fi, the NT version
    By BlahBlahNounBlah in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 04-20-2010, 09:55 AM
  4. Let's end the Fe/Ti - Fi/Te wars once and for all...
    By onemoretime in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 03-16-2010, 12:00 PM
  5. Why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te?
    By sofmarhof in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 02-23-2010, 03:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO