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  1. #61
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    When you have a problem in public with one of your friends, you do not start yelling and crying and screaming for everyone to hear.
    I think most of us are adults in this thread, and regardless of Fe or Fi orientation, hardly start running around "yelling and crying and screaming" when upset or affronted.

    If you are upset with the way your teacher runs a class, you can be assured that you will not get results by challenging them publicly.
    Interestingly, I would rather have a kid challenge me directly and openly than one who foments undercurrents of subterfuge. I kind of love the big mouth ones; at least I know where they are and can address that. I am not employed as a teacher, but have worked with teens in several capacities over the years of my own kids growing up (coaching, volunteering, working with teen moms etc). The ones who whisper in secrets, and put on a pleasant face, are the more dangerous IMO. Those are the harder ones to reach.

    I agree that - of course - there's a time for privacy. "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" - we all know that. The teen years though are hardly a time to expect some kind of nuanced Fe style approach, wouldn't you agree?

    I lived in a community for five years that didn't have newspapers to report crime or corruption. I agree that this was detrimental. However, you might agree that publishing something in a newspaper without checking the facts or getting the story from several people first privately might be unethical.
    It's a huge reason why newspapers were created, to give voice to things unseen and unheard. It's why too journalists have a code of ethics, to verify sources and stories prior to publishing.

    Journalism ethics and standards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I would rather err on the side of brash openness than allowing harmful secrets to remain hidden.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Some one once described me as the little mouse who turns into a lion. It always kinda tickled me pink (it was meant as compliment), but now I'm not so sure.
    Don't change.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Why should she care? Because it is still putting her coworkers at danger, which is why she spoke up in the first place. ..... I just don't understand why Fi has kind of a "screw them anyway" kind of perspective. If it's a value that made them stand up in the first place, why not look at the best way of effecting change in the end.
    Perhaps you didn't read the whole post - I know it was on the edge of tl;dr.

    There is nothing "screw them anyway" about what happened next. Of course I still cared about everyone.

    See, it was a surprise to me that when I was doing the "right thing" I was asked to leave. There wasn't a moment that I thought that would be the outcome! It seemed so obvious and easy to address the issue.

    I did write a letter to the corporate offices after though - and from reports I heard, they leased a whole new storage area in the back of the mall so that stock wouldn't be crammed in so unsafely.

    So, the thanks I got - nothing. But I was pleased that even though things didn't perhaps work out best for me, that change did start to happen.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #62
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This is a good point. I do feel like lots of times, though, Fe is the average of Fi. Everyone gets their say, and then you sort through the opinions and decide what's best for everyone.
    Hey Tallulah, nice to see you share your thoughts here!

    I don't believe that Fe is the average of Fi. I feel like Fe users don't have or see or take into account all the data points to make an accurate average. No offense intended saying that.

    To illustrate, I'm gong to contrast Ti and Te through a personal story.

    My brother is an INTP. My Dad, an ISTJ. They don't get along well. Last Christmas, my brother visited my home briefly before heading back to his. In front of our couch is a very rustic coffee table my Dad made from a giant old barn board. What my brother said encapsulates to me the differences between a Ti and Te vantage point. With a whiff of disdain he commented: "See this table Dad made? I look at it and just shake my head. This could have been a beautiful table, but he didn't take the time to make it properly. See this joint here; it doesn't fit. The legs aren't perfect lengths, I don't even think this is level. And you can't put a drink on this old barn board without it tipping one way or another. He could have placed glass over the top, so you could still see the board and your drink wouldn't fall over and you wouldn't damage the board with liquid. Why couldn't he have taken more time, why didn't he see all the better possibilities, to make this more functional and more attractive?"

    See, my Dad is so focussed on Te, on getting it done (the result) that for him, 80% is good enough. Those suggestions from my brother, as practical and creative and as lovely as they may be, either don't occur to him or are not worth the trouble. My Dad takes shortcuts. But, my Dad gets stuff done; he's rebuilt many old archival houses and structures now.

    For Fe, let's say that the same 80% is all that is seen, and it seems good enough too. (To me, Fe doesn't seem to have an awareness of the things it is missing.) Then, if it takes the averages of what it sees, the Fe user leaves out even more possibilities, more voices. Then, we reduce to a (let's say) 60% solution. It still works for the majority and the group can press forward and get stuff done. But Fe (to me) seems to miss the nuances, the options, the opportunities. And when does it stand up for itself? When does it have an opinion that belongs to an individual? Why can't all the voices mix together to one great chorus? Why must some be ostracized to the "betterment" of all?

    I'm not out to knock Fe here. But if we accept Ti has a depth of focus on options and details and Te on getting work done, why can't we accept that perhaps Fi has a depth of focus on values and personal integrity and Fe on maximizing group harmonics?

    Why does the depth vs breadth descriptor seem so much harder to accept when we are talking about Fi vs Fe? We all seem to get emotional about it from time to time. When emotions isn't what this is (supposed to be) about?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #63
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    I'm not out to knock Fe here. But if we accept Ti has a depth of focus on options and details and Te on getting work done, why can't we accept that perhaps Fi has a depth of focus on values and personal integrity and Fe on maximizing group harmonics?

    Why does the depth vs breadth descriptor seem so much harder to accept when we are talking about Fi vs Fe? We all seem to get emotional about it from time to time. When emotions isn't what this is (supposed to be) about?
    Yeah, some people just can't accept that Fi is a RATIONAL function.
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  4. #64
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    You know, Te thinks it's right all the time. As does Fe. It makes it a big hurdle to overcome.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #65
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    You want to see the clash between Fi and Fe values in a relationship between two people who genuinely love each other?

    Watch "Jesus Christ Superstar."****




    (****No, it's not a silly farce, it's actually a really good movie!

    And NO---I'm not in any way suggesting that "Jesus Christ Superstar" is an accurate portrayal of biblical figures or events. )
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    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

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  6. #66
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    For Fe, let's say that the same 80% is all that is seen, and it seems good enough too. (To me, Fe doesn't seem to have an awareness of the things it is missing.) Then, if it takes the averages of what it sees, the Fe user leaves out even more possibilities, more voices. Then, we reduce to a (let's say) 60% solution. It still works for the majority and the group can press forward and get stuff done. But Fe (to me) seems to miss the nuances, the options, the opportunities. And when does it stand up for itself? When does it have an opinion that belongs to an individual? Why can't all the voices mix together to one great chorus? Why must some be ostracized to the "betterment" of all?

    What is Fe missing?

  7. #67
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Why must some be ostracized to the "betterment" of all?
    That's not what I want to do. If there was an individual who had a good idea, I would just help the group listen to them. Not completely lean towards the idea of group betterment in a strict manner. It's not beyond me to side with one person, and try speak to the group in a reverse fashion. And if it didn't work, I wouldn't move on without telling that person I was sorry about it.

  8. #68
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    What is Fe missing?
    Thanks Tilty - you know, it's a great question. I'm trying to draw analogies between the functions, because I know I miss Ti details. When my Dad gave us that coffee table, I didn't analyze it like my brother did. I just chalked it up to being "rustic" and although I could see the evidence of hasty construction, I didn't "see" it like my brother did. I didn't question what it was; I just saw it for what I saw.

    Let me think of some Fi / Fe examples from real life. They might illustrate the point.

    You know in the movie "Avatar"? When Neytiri says "I see you" meaning "I see into you" ... to the truth, the essence, that's what Fi feels like.

    Anyway, let me think on that more and like I said, have some real life anecdotes.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #69
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I think too, for INFJ - we are really looking at Ni / Fe, where the Ni focusses in so deep on the dynamics between people, that it can "see" outcomes when others aren't picking up those kinds of nuances ...

    Still thinking ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #70
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks Tilty - you know, it's a great question. I'm trying to draw analogies between the functions, because I know I miss Ti details. When my Dad gave us that coffee table, I didn't analyze it like my brother did. I just chalked it up to being "rustic" and although I could see the evidence of hasty construction, I didn't "see" it like my brother did. I didn't question what it was; I just saw it for what I saw.

    Let me think of some Fi / Fe examples from real life. They might illustrate the point.

    You know in the movie "Avatar"? When Neytiri says "I see you" meaning "I see into you" ... to the truth, the essence, that's what Fi feels like.

    Anyway, let me think on that more and like I said, have some real life anecdotes.
    I think y'all are high, that's what I think.

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