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  1. #671
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    What you wrote here reminds me of what in our house we call his DLLD (Dreaded Logical Loop of Doom*).

    *This is a fabulous term I picked up on the SP forum.
    I wholeheartedly approve of this name.

    When it comes to emotions, my ISTP has a tendency to get into the DLLD. In other words, he tries to apply his Ti to "understanding" and "defining" his feelings and this overloads his processor (because you can't understand emotions using traditional ISTP Ti tactics) and thus he gets stuck in the DLLD zone. I think of a robot who is trying to process some sort of logical problem that doesn't have any solution so it gets stuck and can only repeat over and over, "Processing... processing..." It tends to completely blow out his operating systems... so to speak.

    Said in another way, sometimes I notice my ISTP is so concerned about finding the RIGHT answer that he never puts forward any answer. He gets stuck sorting out the permutations and since no clear answer is forthcoming he will not proceed.
    There absolutely are times when it's counterproductive to get lost in the DDLD. There are times when just getting something done is more important than getting it done as well as I'd like- especially where work or school are concerned, where there are deadlines that effect me even more than a thing's RIGHTNESS effects me. It's definitely hard to put aside the desire to get it RIGHT for the sake of just getting it DONE.

    So what I'm hearing from you is that because you can't sort out a scenario that you think matches my request, you can't give me an answer. Very interesting. Let me tell you what I tell my ISTP when he's going into the DLLD:

    "Don't focus so much on being correct. Sometimes you can get overly focused on trying to find the right answer.... to the point that you don't act at all.

    "Sometimes the only way to get to the right answer is to close your eyes, say your prayers, and jump. You might jump to a place with no foothold. This means you'll have to scramble a little bit to catch your balance, but at least you'll have a new place from which to re-evaluate things. And perhaps from this new vantage point, the answer will become apparent."
    While I believe, esoteric, you are coming from a place of trying to be helpful: I'm not sure this is one of those places where many of us will be willing to let go of accuracy for the sake of getting something done. It's hard enough to be willing to put forth (what feel like) half-ass ideas in venues where our grades depend on it just getting done, or where we're actually paid to just get it done (i.e. where our livelihood depends on it). Just like there's a heavy Fe bias in our culture, there's a heavy Te bias as well- breathing down our necks to let go of accuracy for the sake of just getting it done.

    When I wrote earlier, "what's the point?"- of trying to suppress Ti for the sake of getting it done- it’s because participating in this forum is a leisure activity. The advice you gave above is helpful- if it were in our interest to just get it done. I just don’t think it’s going to appeal to many Fe types participating in this thread- if only because the Fe types participating happen to be the ones heavy with Ti. The opportunity to find accuracy is what makes questions worthwhile- and where it doesn't look like there's much hope of it, there's little incentive to "close your eyes, say your prayers, and jump."

    And sadly, the Fe types without a lot of Ti don’t seem to be interested in participating in the first place.

    edit: I did try offering suggestions on how to make the questions seem more worthwhile, because it does seem important to you to get these answers from us.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    This is where any discussion gets muddy because some of my Fi values ARE about group harmony, caring about other people, helping others etc. Those are not the exclusive environs of Fe. And my values aren't carbon copies of the Fe ones, but their derivation is from Fe values and taking them to a personal level, an idealistic level, that over my formative years led to the creation of a personal code of conduct. Which is, I might add, still being refined and tested and maturing.

    (Like a mighty oak tree, wide and broad and strong. Maybe Fe is the willow tree, flexing with the changes of weather, accommodating and bending. Both have their strengths.)
    Yeah I was raised in a very Fe culture and also in a very SJ household, so some of my Fi values may seem group oriented, Fe-like, or traditional on the surface. But when it comes down to if something doesn't fit my internal checklist, I completely disregard it. IRL I may disregard it more politely or more quietly than I would on-line or otherwise in writing, but it's still blatantly disregarded and even rebelled against in certain cases.

    What I went through as a teenager also seems like either typical Fi dom or Fi aux "nobody understands me, I am so unique, I want to push all social boundaries, what would happen if I sang into the drive-thru speaker at Taco Bell after work or instigated with my friends hiding under the table when the waitress came at Denny's or fuck it I'm going to skip school today...alone" kind of identity stuff. I also did worse things than that... Stuff that sounds really silly, even stupid and hurtful, to me now as adult, but seemed HUGE in the extremely SFJ culture I was surrounded by.

    I think as a 4 (aren't you a 9?) I am less focused on social harmony or being an official "peace maker" and yet I don't really want to hurt other people either, and IRL I actually avoid drawing unnecessary attention to myself in most places. Like, I know how to "behave myself" at work, or around elderly people. Of course I'm also a different person than I was ten years ago, and sometimes I have to remind myself of that...when I think of who I was as a VERY young person I can't think that I could possibly be any other type than ENFP.





    Ne moment:

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  3. #673
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I think it's simply that once in a while, it's sacrilege to want a certain outcome at the expense of what it cost to get you there. And Fi people would be drawing a tighter line of where that boundary is.

    If she put her job security on the line and a target on her chest for the sake of the group's safety, and then the group sucks out from backing her up despite the fact that she would have been willing to take the brunt of it and lead . . . and then her employer screws her over instead of doing the right thing that he was legally obligated to do. . .

    It's like finding a bunch of expired, bacteria-filled ingredients in the fridge and trying to make a healthy meal out of it. Sometimes you just gotta throw it out and find some fresh food.
    But if the way you do it doesn't work, you aren't throwing out the bacteria-filled ingredients, you're leaving them in the fridge for someone else to eat, possibly unknowingly or possibly someone that has no choice and might even have a weakened immune system. If you're going to put yourself through hell, why wouldn't you want to go to the trouble to actually get some results for your actions?

    Or is it more of an emotional, knee-jerk reaction? I've certainly done those before myself because the injustice of a situation made me *so* angry that I couldn't force myself to be more calm and constructive.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #674
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    OK, I’ll go first.
    1. When Fi Went Awry:
    2. Why Did Fi Do That?:
    3. How Were Others Inconvenienced?:
    4. Comments:
    Yeah I do have to say its in the language, for instance while I understand the terminology I seem to be circumspect. And while needing to be emotionally at ease or vested in a conversation helps too my vocabulary tends to ignore the Fe Fi nuances in favour of feelings and emotions and what they portend for me so I probably didn't want to specifically talk about my experiences in this matter for coming off as slightly ignorant, or at least selective ignorance based from a source of attention deficit in that respect now that it is clearing up this is less of an issue for me. But hehe it was such a bigge before where my attention span wavered like the back of a ute that broke down and you couldn't even put the clutch in reverse to get it started or something. So then I started reading everything back to front like a Japanese book instead of reading from start to finish. And I know people are going to skimp out on this most intricate thread and its very interesting exploration into the emotional psyche and depths of NF design just because of its length and unfamiliarity of this landscape, its pretty damn awesome. Mental stimulation, the most satisfying kind.

    1. When your Feeling judgment Went Awry: Explain situation you personally experienced when your Feeling judgment caused problems. It can be your F function, or someone else’s.
    2. Why Did you Do That?: What was your justification for doing what it did?
    3. How Were Others Inconvenienced?
    4. Feedback
    Oh and as read mention for introverts it isn't so much that we have conflicts that we can draw back on that are easily definable in the moment per say as it would be for extroverts. Since our modality in expression tends to have a more internal basis and hence the reasoning behind this conflict expression is more along the lines of subtle than defined.

    Even so I'll explore the one where I was in a shadow manifestation and in this shadow manifestation caused quite a stir. When I was unhealthy and I had a paranoid flavour of expression and this exaggerated greatly my emotional state and anxieties. Which in turn magnified and fed into my fears at the time. And funnily enough I tested as a enneagram 6 personality which I believe is a bogus personality characteristic that many people get stuck in for health reasons personally. And so I played the devils advocate. As a happy 4w5 I can totally say that 6 is a contradictory state of unrest for many people and they assume its their person, when I am certain there is an underlining theme that is hardly personality based and more health related, I mean it is but its a falsified expression.

    When I spun my words in such a way that it fed into other peoples insecurities as well as my own. In doing so I created a negative situation which was more about my loneliness and reaching out rather than anything, to learn to be social, experience and down to earth. Of course my thinking was so warped that I confused intimacy with emotions and feelings and expressed them as a natural extension in that respect when I started to explore my loneliness it was taken the wrong way. As if I was falling in love, but this was untrue, I was however expressing my frustrations and in doing so people mistook that frustration as something else. Especially the kind of writing I managed to create, which was a deeper exploration behind the reasoning and emotional triggers why relationships happen to begin with. And of course I let my depression get in the way and this resounded negatively.

    Once it was deep enough I did something strange in my paranoia. I lied, I said such and such a thing on purpose so that the person would form a negative association of me and eventually dislike me enough thinking that I was manipulative. Which I was bordering on after it all blew out of proportion.

    How did this affect others well they were reading the volatility of my emotional self destruction and paranoia at the time which I had no idea was untreated hypothyroidism until years later. I was shocked to see that I was influencing peoples thoughts subtly in a negative way and formed the opinion that words can be like black magic when engulfed in the wrong emotionality of thoughts. Where I tried to convince myself and others that what I said wasn't really wrong, but it was a betrayal of trust. Which it was but it was also wrong because my emotions were in what I call an emotional disconnect. And in that respect I played the devils advocate where I almost wanted to show people why they were wrong as much as me. And indeed I did say that I felt that suggesting a cult like organization to solve my problems was a poor reflection on their judgment. After all why suggest a disruptive modality to stabilize a disruptive modality that would in every sense of the word escalate and indeed deepen the severity and fracture of the emotional disparity between the mind and the world. And it was a disparity in their judgment. As I was to later learn funnily enough subconsciously each and everyone of them were in some form or another unhealthy and their own emotions were clouded by the very same issues I had, a poorly function thyroid, which helped. You live and learn

    Anyway years later upon review of that particular episode I sounded very much like a drama queen and projected and or absorbed my fathers drama for a time and was expressing his destruct as much as my own, being as sensitive as I was I knew what was going on and others did not and were surprised that my behaviour changed, one from unrestrained emotional expression to insincere and distant. Because I lost something crucial there, I was using my depression as a confidence crutch, when that was gone part of my sup personality for the last 10+ years left and until I restored myself back to me I wasn't much good to anyone. It was a strange and sometimes bumpy ride, but never dull as I lead people to believe. And of course when you lose that kind of self belief, that you were indeed living on a false premise after all then you do tend to reinterpret the world around you as I have and gratefully I am now in a positive state more and more.

    And this inconvenienced others because they absorbed the drama, subconsciously learned unhealthy sets of values and beliefs that I held that'll probably manifest later in their lives without them understanding where its from. For there were people that looked up to me in my extravagance, as unhealthy as it was, and took some of the distorted expressions that I did have as true because I was so convincing and uncanny in my reasoning.

    As to comments, hehe I shouldn't have listened to the people who encouraged me to start a blog when I was in that frame of mind. Dunno if that really helped any for this thread but oh well.

  5. #675
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Affably Evil View Post
    Now I'm confused: isn't a direct negating or challenging exactly what I did?
    No. You did that PLUS got "irritated". It was the irritation that seemed out of place.

    Some others just got irritated and/or made snarky remarks rather than try to readjust my understanding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I don’t think it’s so much about Fe’s fear of breaking tradition so much as it is Pi. When perception is turned primarily inwards (especially in P doms- where Pe is their least function), there’s less malleability with the external world. I suppose you could still call it fear in a way, but essentially it’s because we aren’t set up to adapt to change in the external world as readily as other types. It’s our default to re-shape our perception of someone, rather than get rid of the person or start to avoid them or whatever. This can be incredibly toxic with the wrong people, so we’re more careful than most about whom we let in to begin with.

    Where Fe (and therefore Pi) are in the dom/aux positions, this is probably why we’re less inclined to open up to people right away- not because we’re adhering to tradition out of fear.
    Thank you for this. So it wasn't calling it fear that was the problem, just misunderstanding the source of that fear. Also, you seem to confirm what I said here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Of course most Fi users commenting here are Ps and most Fe users, Js...
    How much is right-brain (all-at-once) vs left-brain (one step at a time) thinking...?
    I like how you built on this with the idea of inflexibility as far as the outside world goes. This seems like a contradiction at first glance: isn't Fe all about adapting to the external world? But of course, it isn't. It's about divining a fairly static, rigid standard based on external principles, and adhering to that. *lots more thoughts*

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    But if the way you do it doesn't work, you aren't throwing out the bacteria-filled ingredients, you're leaving them in the fridge for someone else to eat, possibly unknowingly or possibly someone that has no choice and might even have a weakened immune system. If you're going to put yourself through hell, why wouldn't you want to go to the trouble to actually get some results for your actions?

    Or is it more of an emotional, knee-jerk reaction? I've certainly done those before myself because the injustice of a situation made me *so* angry that I couldn't force myself to be more calm and constructive.


    This thread is exhausting. This is how it reads to me:

    Fi user: [provides illustration]
    Fe user: UR DOING IT RONG!
    Fi : Why are you focusing on the irrelevant stuff and missing the point?
    Fe : Don't tell me my feelings are irrelevant! Yours are!
    Fi : :confused:

    Fe : [provides example]
    Fi : [Reads subtext, digs deeper] So, is it right to say you were feeling this?
    Fe : Don't label my feelings! That hurts my feelings!
    Fi :
    Fe : I don't know why, it just does. Also, you suck at asking questions.
    Fi : :confused:


    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #676
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I was aware it probably wouldn't be appreciated. I just needed to understand why what seemed like a win-win solution would be so universally rejected by Fi users that I've encountered. It's not like PB was the only Fi user who might approach things in that manner.

    I couldn't understand why if you wanted a certain outcome, you would approach it in that way, because it seemed doomed to fail and the problem would continue without being fixed. I realized later that the outcome wasn't her objective nearly as much as expressing her strong feelings about the issue to the right person. It was about whether it was Right or Wrong.

    I only pieced that together after a few other Fi users expressed their sentiments. It was like after saying her piece, they saw it as a done deal. What her employer chose to do was not the point.

    Therefore, I think the issue in a lot of these disagreements is that we have entirely different goals or reasons for communicating something, yet assume the other person has the same. That's why a Fe user says, "That makes no sense! Why are you doing it that way. Try it this way instead". A Te user feels the same sense of bewilderment about Ti, not understanding that Ti is not starting with trying to come up with a workable solution first.
    @bold especially, and the whole post generally: this interpretation is totally, utterly and completely incorrect.

    I know you're trying, and I appreciate that, but this is so far off the mark I cannot stress it enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    There is a mild arrogance here, not unlike the INTJ arrogance. You presume that she didn't look for a win-win solution; rather you assume that since it didn't work out optimally, that there must have been a better solution. PB is a very skilled diplomat, though perhaps not as skilled back when this happened.

    Think about it:
    • It was 20 years ago.
    • There is nothing to be done now.
    • There is, in all likelihood, nothing to be learned now that she hadn't already learned in the intervening 20 years.
    • Her objective really was to fix the problem, not merely "make a statement." Note her satisfaction that it was eventually addressed, after she left.
    • There was likely no way to address the problem without losing her job. Making waves usually has this kind of price.


    It isn't just about right and wrong, Fi doesn't completely lack diplomacy. The "right and wrong" appears in terms of not backing down to fight another day. Even as it became clear that communicating about the issue wouldn't solve the problem, she didn't go for "CYA". Rather, it was important enough to her that she not give up. It was important enough that she do the right thing, even if it cost her, personally. This is quintessential Fi. (Not that Fe doesn't try to do the right thing, it merely follows a different path that does weigh the cost, and is willing to be patient and bide one's time for a more optimal moment. E.g., as Fe, one might have been better able to enlist the support of coworkers. Both approaches work; both approaches are valuable.)

    Thus, there is really nothing you could possibly say to "solve the problem" that would not offend on some level or another. It's someone else's experience, on their own terms. It is puzzling perhaps, and you wonder might what have been done better. The proper way to address it is to listen, express sympathy, and perhaps express outrage at the real culprits (those who wouldn't implement simple safety measures). Then, maybe, after the experience has been fully shared, discuss better ways to address difficult issues with one's employer, in the form of asking questions.

    This is totally analogous to how I shift gears when dealing with Ti with my Te. I stop and listen. I ask questions. I encourage self-expression. And only then do I humbly inquire as to how one might more optimally deal with the problem. It rubs against my normal INTJ grain, but it gets me much further in terms of mutual understanding.
    This is totally, utterly and completely correct.

    But as has already been discussed, questions that are posed without reflecting and acknowledging what's been divulged so far tend to come across as incomprehension ... and now that I think about it, I guess that's truly what they reflect. Absolute puzzlement.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #677
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think that's true Morgan. I'm more rigid about my external world because it lends structure to my inner world which is quite flexible in comparison to many of the Ps I know. The P types I've been around tend to appear pretty go with the flow about their external world, but can be more rigid in terms of their inner world.

    PB, I'm sorry. I can understand how irritating that is when someone completely misreads you. I'm really trying to understand better. The questions are truly a matter of puzzlement, not judgement. It's just that your world looks very different than mine, so if I'm not extrapolating from mine, I'm just going on bits and pieces that I've gotten from asking about yours. Without enough information to fill in the gaps, those pieces can be put together in a way that creates a completely wrong picture. That's why I need descriptions of what you guys do see and the thought process that goes into it to come to a more accurate understanding. I'm glad that umlauu took the time to do that and that you also said something. I do not mean to be insulting and in piecing things together, I realize that it sounded more like a statement rather than the picture that had emerged for me thus far whose accuracy I was checking on.

  8. #678
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    PB, I'm sorry. I can understand how irritating that is when someone completely misreads you. I'm really trying to understand better. The questions are truly a matter of puzzlement, not judgement. It's just that your world looks very different than mine, so if I'm not extrapolating from mine, I'm just going on bits and pieces that I've gotten from asking about yours. Without enough information to fill in the gaps, those pieces can be put together in a way that creates a completely wrong picture. That's why I need descriptions of what you guys do see and the thought process that goes into it to come to a more accurate understanding. I'm glad that umlauu took the time to do that and that you also said something. I do not mean to be insulting and in piecing things together, I realize that it sounded more like a statement rather than the picture that had emerged for me thus far whose accuracy I was checking on.
    fidelia, thanks for that and for sharing how you try to piece together the details to form a whole picture. The more data you have, the better picture you can make, right?

    As far as "getting" Fi though, it's OK, I've had a lot more exposure to the Fe world than you have had to the Fi one. Many, many years to watch and observe how Fe manifests, uniquely, in different situations and groups and people, and not just because I'm older, but because it IS the more socially accepted version of F expression in our society. I can remember being 7 years old and pondering on such questions.

    So since I haven't got Fe down pat yet (because, as you say, our worlds look very different to each other) I sure don't expect you to "get" Fi right off the hop either.

    I am glad you are open to trying!

    And I am trying to always do better with my Fe-skills as well, because it's important to me that we can find that common ground.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #679
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    This is totally analogous to how I shift gears when dealing with Ti with my Te. I stop and listen. I ask questions. I encourage self-expression. And only then do I humbly inquire as to how one might more optimally deal with the problem. It rubs against my normal INTJ grain, but it gets me much further in terms of mutual understanding.
    Hmm. I noticed this about you -- in fact, in my head, I think, I have you classified as "one of the reasonable INTJs" just in that I feel like I can have an actual discussion with you. So your efforts do help a lot.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #680
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah, I think that's true Morgan. I'm more rigid about my external world because it lends structure to my inner world which is quite flexible in comparison to many of the Ps I know. The P types I've been around tend to appear pretty go with the flow about their external world, but can be more rigid in terms of their inner world.
    This is interesting to me. How do you experience the "inner rigidity" of Ps?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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