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  1. #661
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I've thought a little about this after coming to the realization that the form of my question might not register with Introverted thinking very well. Perhaps it might be easier for NF Ti users to tap into their Se.

    For those who may not know, ENFJs and INFJs are Ti users. (While ENFPs and INFPs are Te users.)

    INFJ - Ni > Fe > Ti > Se
    ENFJ - Fe > Ni > Se > Ti

    I think the format of this exercise more readily speaks to Fi and Te. The way this format was oriented to the strengths of Fi and Te had never occurred to me until PeaceBaby's and Z Buck McFate's recent responses.

    But this doesn't mean this isn't a valuable exercise for you ENFJs and INFJs. In fact, it might make it all the more valuable.

    I'm sort of brainstorming here... so take this into consideration... but maybe ENFJs and INFJs could tap into their Se.
    I think there’s a language fail going on here. The actual Naikan questions you posted don’t pose anywhere near as much a problem as the way you re-phrased them, and I think Ti’s need for accuracy may be at the core. If we can’t even agree on a definition for the difference between Fe and Fi (as Jennifer already pointed out), then how can we begin to describe how Fe went awry?

    The original:
    • What have I received from __________ ?
    • What have I given to __________ ?
    • What troubles and difficulties have I caused __________ ?
    Your changes:
    • When [Fe/Fi] Went Awry: Explain situation you personally experienced when Fe or Fi caused problems. It can be your F function, or someone else’s.
    • Why Did [Fe/Fi] Do That?: What was [Fe/Fi]’s justification for doing what it did?
    • How Were Others Inconvenienced? : How did this display of [Fe/Fi] affect the other parties involved? It’s easy to explain why we felt motivated to use our Fe/Fi in a certain way. It’s much more difficult to articulate how your actions inconvenienced others.
    I suggested scraping off the vagueness by changing it to ‘Feeling function’, because I thought it would be more conducive to accuracy (in the sense of being able to use an agreed upon definition), but- as I also said- it’s still kind of vague. I’m really not sure how to phrase the original questions in a way which would bring forth answers that would shed light specifically on the topic at hand.

    The original questions though, I don’t particularly see as being a problem for Fe users.
    But just because it might stir up discomfort doesn't mean it might not be a valuable exercise. Perhaps you can recall the expressions and mannerisms of the other people involved in your Fe gone awry story. Perhaps you can remember if they physically removed themselves from your presence. Or if they quit interacting with you by ceasing correspondence. These all seem like observable behaviors that would be picked up by Se.

    And once you recounted the behaviors your observed, perhaps you could use your Ni to extrapolate how someone who displayed these concrete, observable behaviors might feel.
    I think you’d be truly surprised at the extent to which this isn’t about discomfort: it’s about trying to understand what you’re asking for. If you’d asked, “When is the last time you hurt someone’s feelings?”, your chance at getting a response is going to be a lot better than “When is the last time your Fe hurt someone’s feelings?” Throwing Fe (or Se, or Ni, etc) into the mix sends us scurrying for a common baseline definition off of which to work with: because there’s little point in communication until common definitions have been established (at least for me, and I know it’s probably true about a couple of other people here). This seriously isn’t about figuring out which function we should tap into in order to answer your question, it’s about changing the question so that it’s becomes possible to answer with reasonable accuracy.

    Sure, you could suggest- in response to this- that we not use Ti and try to override our need for accuracy. But you won’t get any responses again (I’m assuming) because what’s the point?


    Also: thanks for the heads up about the Ma Pao Tofu.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #662
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    To Esoteric -

    The reason I can't provide any input in the requested format/exercise is because for the life of me I can't think of any situation/conflict irl that was due to Fe/Fi alone. Maybe I'm totally un-self-aware, or something, but these things are so individualized, not to mention that I think most conflicts are a combo of functions and I, at least, don't feel terribly comfortable, or able to, break down into just Fe vs. Fi, because I tend not to see it as solely resting on that... (and also, admittedly, these days don't put a whole lot of focus on mbti exclusively in looking at personality/behavior). I would say that in most of my misunderstandings with another, it wasn't at all due to my Fe or their Fi -- it was due to some other element of my personality.

    Also, perhaps it's because irl I don't really experience gaping Fe/Fi differences, at least *behaviorally*. However, I also don't have any dom or aux Fi's that are in my close circle of friends (well, there's one that might be infp but I really have no idea what his type is), so there is that as well - I simply don't have any firsthand experience in any major Fe/Fi conflict, or else I'm just not phased all that much by some of the Fi stuff that's talked about in here. I dunno. I mean, yes, I recognize I operate pretty differently from Fi-er's, but it's never caused major real-life conflict for me; That I'm aware of, at least. Edit: If anything, Fe is the precise thing that prevents conflict for me in the first place - it's the tool I use to communicate such that conflict/misunderstanding typically doesn't occur.

    *End totally unhelpful response*
    Actually, this was a very helpful answer Cadesco.

    My significant other is an ISTP, who interestingly enough, has all the top four functions that INFJ's do... just in a different order.

    ISTP - Ti > Se > Ni > Fe
    INFJ - Ni > Fe > Ti > Se

    What you wrote here reminds me of what in our house we call his DLLD (Dreaded Logical Loop of Doom*).

    When it comes to emotions, my ISTP has a tendency to get into the DLLD. In other words, he tries to apply his Ti to "understanding" and "defining" his feelings and this overloads his processor (because you can't understand emotions using traditional ISTP Ti tactics) and thus he gets stuck in the DLLD zone. I think of a robot who is trying to process some sort of logical problem that doesn't have any solution so it gets stuck and can only repeat over and over, "Processing... processing..." It tends to completely blow out his operating systems... so to speak.

    Said in another way, sometimes I notice my ISTP is so concerned about finding the RIGHT answer that he never puts forward any answer. He gets stuck sorting out the permutations and since no clear answer is forthcoming he will not proceed.

    So what I'm hearing from you is that because you can't sort out a scenario that you think matches my request, you can't give me an answer. Very interesting. Let me tell you what I tell my ISTP when he's going into the DLLD:

    "Don't focus so much on being correct. Sometimes you can get overly focused on trying to find the right answer.... to the point that you don't act at all.

    "Sometimes the only way to get to the right answer is to close your eyes, say your prayers, and jump. You might jump to a place with no foothold. This means you'll have to scramble a little bit to catch your balance, but at least you'll have a new place from which to re-evaluate things. And perhaps from this new vantage point, the answer will become apparent."


    *This is a fabulous term I picked up on the SP forum.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  3. #663
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Not to be too repetitive, but it's the perceiving function that allows both a Fe & Fi person to "see" beyond their preferred judging system. This is why a real Fe-er is not wholly about norms. And this is why a real Fi-er is not an individual conscience that goes wholly unaffected by norms.

    Anyway, my main point was I agree with you on these pure definitions of Fe & Fi, but the reason they are not representative of real people is because we're all more than one function. One function shows an imbalance, which is never pretty.
    Agree 100% on functions not being used in isolation. It's why I tend not to like to attribute stuff to one and only function - because it's not really the case irl. But in order to attempt to answer Morgan's question, I ended up having to try to whittle Fi and Fe down to extremes. Thanks for letting me know that I wasn't totally off base (at least in your opinion) with regards to Fi and Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    As Seymour said, it has more to do with misunderstanding than one side being right or wrong. To resolve it, though, can require both sides to adjust a bit and meet in the middle. Both need to perceive what the real meaning is behind the other's actions/words, so they don't make assumptions based on their own manner of gauging value.

    Honestly, this is why I feel that Fi is more often misunderstood - being introverted and not based directly on a consensus, it is less apparent to other people why a Fi-dom feels a certain way. Fe is "out there" & having consensus behind it, is accepted by more people, so there is less invalidating happening to it. I think when it feels invalidated, it may be by a Fi-er, who is really just trying to assert the validity of their own feelings. Most of the time, the Fe-er does not need to adopt the Fi-ers feelings to validate them (which they may think is the case, as Fe works more by adjusting to the external - it needs to "mirror" or whatever), but just allow them to feel that way without judging it. Allow more than one way of right to exist, as often things fall into grey areas anyway. Fe-ers with good perception do this a lot - that's pretty much what empathizing is. It validates a feeling you do not have, without necessarily saying it is the most correct feeling. If correction in behavior is needed even after understanding the core feeling, it's best to try and do so without invalidating that feeling.
    Good points. Agree that Fi is less understood and it's less apparent what is going on within an Fi-dom or with regards to Fi.

    As to Fe, I'll have to take your word on it as a non-Fe-user and your impressions of it. Reading Fi descriptions of Fe sometimes make me scratch my head, as I don't really know what many are referring to when they speak of consensus or norms or whatnot, but I'll just have to assume it's because I see all of it and it comes second-nature to me - the recognition of all of it (even if I don't adhere to all of it or agree with it), such that I can at least navigate pretty seamlessly. (A lot of this too might just be the fact that I'm Ni-dom, NOT Fe-dom. haha.)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #664
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    EW - I think Z Buck is onto something. It's the definitions that screw me up. I would do much better just saying where something went wrong between me and another person and what I thought was at the heart of the issue from my perspective.

    I know that you would really like us to do this exercise. I would really like to help you out. However, I find it constricting and I kind of am not even certain of where to start. I have found the kind of conversation that we've all been having pretty helpful in its present format. If it creates a bit of friction, that maybe isn't all bad sometimes. I might be overlooking why it matters to you though or what you see we could gain by doing it that way, that we can't as it is. I want to be of help and not to be frustrating you.

  5. #665
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    None of those things are her obligation. Her only obligation was to report the incident, which she did, at great cost to herself. Her employer's (ethical and LEGAL) obligation is to provide a safe environment for their employees. Which they clearly failed to do. It's open and shut to me. I don't see why PB needs to go massage someone else's ego - she is the injured party and to do so would violate Fi's sense of integrity. (That's what you guys don't seem to appreciate.) In any event, the fact that they acted unethically and illegally suggests that no approach, other than a deceitful one, perhaps, would have worked. They were not open to reason.

    In the end, it doesn't matter what the outcome is - she did the right thing. If everyone at the firm had supported her and also done the right thing, the employer would have been forced to make concessions (Trade Unions are so Fi!) But they were too cowardly and short-sighted to make a stand. So why should she care what happens to them now?
    I'm slowly processing through this thread, mostly giving rep comments, at least until I'm done. THIS is the first post where I feel a need to post a public reply.

    I fully understand your POV here, and very much feel as you feel. There is injustice, and it seems as if some people don't fully appreciate it.

    But let me, as a Te/Fi user, suggest a more benevolent aspect of the Fe-style inquiry.

    Like Te, Fe is a problem-solving attitude. Fe solves people problems. In particular, Ni/Fe is VERY good at solving people problems.

    I would suggest that it is not so much lack of appreciation for PB's experience, but rather the problem-solving Ni/Fe attitude that rubs one the wrong way. Having had similar resentment expressed toward my own Ni/Te problem-solving (solving a problem where a solution was unwanted/unmerited/moot), I understand the Fe predicament, here.

    When given a situation, the initial perspective of Ni/Fe -is- to "solve the people problem." Just as INTJs always look for better solutions to more technical issues (even those already solved), so do INFJs look for the best people-problem solutions.

    I do not fault INFJs for looking for such solutions: this is precisely what makes them very good diplomats, even in Fi or Te terms. The problem here is acknowledging, just as a mature INTJ would acknowledge, sometimes it is inappropriate to offer a solution to a problem. Sometimes people just want to be heard. This isn't an Fi-only thing: my ESFJ ex-wife very much wanted to share her detailed experiences without my offering solutions ... and I have long known as "a guy" that one generally doesn't try to "offer solutions" to the problems a woman shares.

    The problem-solving attitude is 100% well-intentioned, but ...

    Sometimes people just need to be be heard and affirmed, without any problem-solving commentary. I must admit, even INTJs need this kind of affirmation sometimes.

  6. #666
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    So is that what the issue is? Kind of like we feel when we vent and a Te user wants us to immediately implement their solution before they've even heard everything? That makes a little more sense to me.

  7. #667
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    So is that what the issue is? Kind of like we feel when we vent and a Te user wants us to immediately implement their solution before they've even heard everything? That makes a little more sense to me.
    Yep, exactly.

    I could TOTALLY feel your desire to help PB. And from my Te experience, I understood exactly why it wasn't appreciated as intended.

    This cartoon is relevant:


    It's the Te version, but just imagine the "Fe version" of the same thing. (I'm sure this is an INTJ physicist.)

  8. #668
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I was aware it probably wouldn't be appreciated. I just needed to understand why what seemed like a win-win solution would be so universally rejected by Fi users that I've encountered. It's not like PB was the only Fi user who might approach things in that manner.

    I couldn't understand why if you wanted a certain outcome, you would approach it in that way, because it seemed doomed to fail and the problem would continue without being fixed. I realized later that the outcome wasn't her objective nearly as much as expressing her strong feelings about the issue to the right person. It was about whether it was Right or Wrong.

    I only pieced that together after a few other Fi users expressed their sentiments. It was like after saying her piece, they saw it as a done deal. What her employer chose to do was not the point.

    Therefore, I think the issue in a lot of these disagreements is that we have entirely different goals or reasons for communicating something, yet assume the other person has the same. That's why a Fe user says, "That makes no sense! Why are you doing it that way. Try it this way instead". A Te user feels the same sense of bewilderment about Ti, not understanding that Ti is not starting with trying to come up with a workable solution first.

  9. #669
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I was aware it probably wouldn't be appreciated. I just needed to understand why what seemed like a win-win solution would be so universally rejected by Fi users that I've encountered. It's not like PB was the only Fi user who might approach things in that manner.
    I think it's simply that once in a while, it's sacrilege to want a certain outcome at the expense of what it cost to get you there. And Fi people would be drawing a tighter line of where that boundary is.

    If she put her job security on the line and a target on her chest for the sake of the group's safety, and then the group sucks out from backing her up despite the fact that she would have been willing to take the brunt of it and lead . . . and then her employer screws her over instead of doing the right thing that he was legally obligated to do. . .

    It's like finding a bunch of expired, bacteria-filled ingredients in the fridge and trying to make a healthy meal out of it. Sometimes you just gotta throw it out and find some fresh food.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  10. #670
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I was aware it probably wouldn't be appreciated. I just needed to understand why what seemed like a win-win solution would be so universally rejected by Fi users that I've encountered. It's not like PB was the only Fi user who might approach things in that manner. I couldn't understand why if you wanted a certain outcome, you would approach it in that way because it seemed doomed to fail and the problem would continue without being fixed. I realized later that the outcome wasn't her objective nearly as much as expressing her strong feelings about the issue to the right person. It was about whether it was Right or Wrong. I only pieced that together after a few other Fi users expressed their sentiments. It was like after saying her piece, they saw it as a done deal. What her employer chose to do was not the point.

    There is a mild arrogance here, not unlike the INTJ arrogance. You presume that she didn't look for a win-win solution; rather you assume that since it didn't work out optimally, that there must have been a better solution. PB is a very skilled diplomat, though perhaps not as skilled back when this happened.

    Think about it:
    • It was 20 years ago.
    • There is nothing to be done now.
    • There is, in all likelihood, nothing to be learned now that she hadn't already learned in the intervening 20 years.
    • Her objective really was to fix the problem, not merely "make a statement." Note her satisfaction that it was eventually addressed, after she left.
    • There was likely no way to address the problem without losing her job. Making waves usually has this kind of price.


    It isn't just about right and wrong, Fi doesn't completely lack diplomacy. The "right and wrong" appears in terms of not backing down to fight another day. Even as it became clear that communicating about the issue wouldn't solve the problem, she didn't go for "CYA". Rather, it was important enough to her that she not give up. It was important enough that she do the right thing, even if it cost her, personally. This is quintessential Fi. (Not that Fe doesn't try to do the right thing, it merely follows a different path that does weigh the cost, and is willing to be patient and bide one's time for a more optimal moment. E.g., as Fe, one might have been better able to enlist the support of coworkers. Both approaches work; both approaches are valuable.)

    Thus, there is really nothing you could possibly say to "solve the problem" that would not offend on some level or another. It's someone else's experience, on their own terms. It is puzzling perhaps, and you wonder might what have been done better. The proper way to address it is to listen, express sympathy, and perhaps express outrage at the real culprits (those who wouldn't implement simple safety measures). Then, maybe, after the experience has been fully shared, discuss better ways to address difficult issues with one's employer, in the form of asking questions.

    This is totally analogous to how I shift gears when dealing with Ti with my Te. I stop and listen. I ask questions. I encourage self-expression. And only then do I humbly inquire as to how one might more optimally deal with the problem. It rubs against my normal INTJ grain, but it gets me much further in terms of mutual understanding.

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