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  1. #651
    Member Affably Evil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Again, I don't understand the irritation - I phrased it as a question, not a statement. I read "fear" in some of the posts and sought clarification - instead there is a certain defensiveness in response rather than a straightforward challenge to or negation of, my interpretation.
    This is puzzling to me.
    Now I'm confused: isn't a direct negating or challenging exactly what I did?

    I'm sure you can appreciate that if, for an Fi user, motivation is given more credence than result, then being misattributed motivations by others would be a sensitive situation or potential source of conflict. This would be especially true for Fe users who are already trying to work from the destination ends of the communication, rather than the origin — the extraverted area of communication, if you will.

    I'm troubled by trying to pursue this though. We have very very few Fe doms using the podium here, and quite a few Fi doms participating in this thread. To the Fi users: thank you! As exposing as it may have been for some of you, it's been really very valuable to read. And I have a lot to think about. But we have quite a few Fi doms, very few (any?) Fe doms. And furthermore, we don't seem to have any Fe or Fi Sensors participating in this thread — which is glaring for me when somebody brings up conflicts they've had with their ESFJ or ISFJ parents over Fe — so the scope of what we can talk about is going to be limited.

    Most of the Fe users here in this thread use it as an auxiliary. Is it possible that what some are attributing as Fe characteristics are actually arising from other introverted functions that are then being channeled through Fe? I say this because on further thought, my own reaction just now probably has less to do with being an Fe user than being an Ni dom. I don't think this issue with being mislabeled is necessarily particular to Fe, but rather has more to do with other functions operating alongside/interpreting Fe. Are there any Fe-Si users reading this thread that can confirm or disprove this — that is, is it more of an Fe issue or originating elsewhere?

    For me, perception and context is everything, because the way I organize data is by starting with universal chaos and bringing it to order by examining it in different ways and using perspective shifts to solve problems. But that's straight-up Ni, isn't it? So not attempting to police or address incorrect assumptions is going to lead to misunderstandings — because we've become limited in our ability to examine a situation with the most accurate set of mental pictures. That plus the emotional boundaries issues makes for rather upsetting situations, because emotional projection, misreading, mirroring and such also starts coming into play. I want to participate in consensual reality with others, but I want to check that my projection of my self is being read parallel to my intentions as accurately as possible.

    I guess that might sound really fuzzy and "timey-wimey," but I'm sure I or someone else can provide examples of the kind of impact I'm talking about.

    Granted there are possible disconnects all over the place: I might not be self aware of my own emotional state and of what I am projecting. Or the receiver might misinterpret my emotions and therefore my intentions therefore losing focus on what I'm trying to say — which then stalls us until we can sort through all the emotional bull and get back to the point.

    I guess the ultimate point is, I'd rather be the one to articulate my emotional state than someone else trying to "help" me address and articulate it for me. Oftentimes trying to articulate an emotional state can be premature, because I need time to very specifically pinpoint what I'm feeling and where that feeling is coming from, and whether it is going to resurge.

    Once you say "I am angry" you have conceptually bonded yourself to that feeling by articulating it out loud — possibly long before you were ready. So if someone else is trying to do that for you, it's even more aggravating because either that person is totally off the mark (the translation issue) or they're trying to get you to emotionally process something you are still trying to digest — rush you through something you're not ready for. Or, the third option: it really has very little bearing on the situation because you are trying to address the result of a communication, not the origin of the feeling.

    Several users liked the "distracting barking dog" analogy. For me, it's less a barking dog and more of a weather station. Usually, it's just a drizzle and people are standing around shouting "It's raining! It's raining!" when you're the scientist trying to chart and see if there's a hurricane looming on the horizon or if it's going to clear up in a few minutes. I don't need to feed the barking dog, I need to monitor where the storm is going, how it's likely to evolve, before I can name it Hurricane Affably.
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  2. #652
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I like that. You described my feelings on the subject exactly!

  3. #653
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    And furthermore, we don't seem to have any Fe or Fi Sensors participating in this thread — which is glaring for me when somebody brings up conflicts they've had with their ESFJ or ISFJ parents over Fe — so the scope of what we can talk about is going to be limited.
    Side note... but this has been discussed: Note that the thread subtitle is "The Definitive NF guide to F-ness". The group decided at various stages to avoid discussion of xSFx.

    Most of the Fe users here in this thread use it as an auxiliary. Is it possible that what some are attributing as Fe characteristics are actually arising from other introverted functions that are then being channeled through Fe? I say this because on further thought, my own reaction just now probably has less to do with being an Fe user than being an Ni dom. I don't think this issue with being mislabeled is necessarily particular to Fe, but rather has more to do with other functions operating alongside/interpreting Fe.
    Totally.

    I still use Fe as a tool to do something or a way to handle a situation that my thinking skills have proven ineffectual with (just like ENTPs are known to use their Fe to "sell" things -- ideas, products, whatever -- by making a bond that helps them sealing the deal). I wish we had more EFJs around to discuss this.
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  4. #654
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I wish we had more EFJs around to discuss this.
    I agree; then there would be a hurricane! jk, jk, my Fe dom friends, I love you

    And aux / aux discussions are generally how this has played out in the past, but I think dom Fi input here has helped push beyond some of those previous impasses.
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  5. #655
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't believe the Fi user places more value on the self - I think this is a profound misunderstanding.
    What if the Fi user's personal values revolve around group harmony or healing others - how would that look different from a Fe user's values?
    right. just because Fi is introverted - self-directed - does not mean it is only self-focused.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Important point; yes, this is possible. Maybe pretty common?
    i would imagine so, given the Fi dom/aux in my life. i think it's important to note that many NF Fi dom/aux/tert tend to consider helping humans in broad, giant philosophical terms like "peace" and "mercy", which is quite interesting in the way that your general Fi dom/aux goes about dealing with people - i think we tend to do it more individually - while NF Fe dom/aux are better at more tangible caring and spread that over a number of people. generally. i'm not attributing this to either Fe or Fi alone, but just in looking at people patterns. which simply says to me, if you're a Fi dom/aux and considering a Fe dom/aux, don't forget to look at their more tangible actions as a counterpart to your broad sweeping terms. i think this is where NF Fi people can accidentally mistake NF Fe people as not genuinely caring, and vice versa.

    Your Good Samaritan example is a noble one, though. You could give a different example of an Fi-er who goes against 'Fe Norms' and has quite a horrific value system -- Fi wouldn't look quite as honorable or selfless in that light - but again it would be that Fi-'ers individualized conscience.
    well yes, and certainly Fe gets a bad rap too sometimes... though given the recent tone that's been picked up along a few posts, i very much appreciated this example, and it's positive to see how Fi can be selfless in being selfish. i would appreciate a counterexample for Fe as well, if anyone can think of one. maybe like a social worker who uses all her contacts to make a better life for many children, working one child at a time. she's not always focused on the child's inner being, but she works to create the external conditions necessary for that child to be able to flourish. and through being selfless, she is personally satisfied. there is no mutual exclusion between selfless and selfish. they can go hand in hand, for better or for worse.

    of course, not to godwin, but hitler was the extreme example - regardless of what type he was or what functions he used - of selflessness gone wrong. he thought he was creating a better world for everyone, but he was really just perpetuating his own little vision of what things should be. i think Fi gone wrong and Fe gone wrong both meet at this same place of enforcing something harmful on everyone, including yourself, because you think it's right. it's like a circle...



    (apologies for the shitty arrows, and values/direction is fairly exchangeable. i think there's something more active about Fe, though)

    it's the inevitable downfall of "evil" or the "bad guys" that we see in movies, because that vicious cycle necessarily contradicts itself. at a certain point, what's ideal for the evil individual and what's ideal for the evil group doesn't mesh anymore, and the group necessarily self-destructs, thereby weakening each individual's power. if you read harry potter you watch it really obviously with the death eaters, and peter pettigrew in particular, who falls into the sad trap of thinking that obeying moldy voldy is going to give him lasting personal security and power. and yet ultimately, he loses any power to achieve what is good for himself or the group as a whole.

    so, for the counterexample, how about a small group of people bonding together to fight something that's going wrong in the greater scheme? the order of the phoenix, lol. or a government legislating to enforce punishment for individual hate crimes. that would seem to be Fe-Fi synergy. when you work towards some kind of change, and you realize that it has to happen both on group and individual levels. speak only to the group and everyone will go home and revert to what they were doing within a few days. speak only to the individual and there will be no drive to change things at the group level. i think that's how most social movements in the US - and probably in the globe - have tended to work. you have to put the two drives together.

    (But disagree that Fe is wholly about norms. If that's the case, I might have to rethink my Fe-ness. Just as I'd imagine Fi is much vaster than 'individual conscience' and has other components to it.)
    yeah, absolutely. and it's hard to know to what extent they overlap... if Fe is a parallel process to Te, in the way i experience Te, then it's about finding something good that works in the real world, not about norms. it's about checking with your environment to ensure you're going to end up with something that works. sure, there is an ideal way to do it, and that should be taken into consideration, but there are a lot of other ways that are good, too, and that will be more practical. yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This is where any discussion gets muddy because some of my Fi values ARE about group harmony, caring about other people, helping others etc.
    right. i actually probably care about what people think too much, and on top of that one of my core values is to try not to harm anyone. it's a bizarre selfless kind of selfishness, because i'm personally invested in others. so, while obviously i fail at that sometimes and get caught up in my own stuff, it's like what i was saying before about Fi being self-directed but not self-focused. while it sounds like Fe takes a better neutral/outsider perspective, it can also be focused on making oneself the center of attention all the time, should one feel like it. both perspectives have ample opportunity to used either to the detriment or the benefit of others - and i think it'd be a fallacy to try to say that one must sacrifice themself for the group, or vice versa - i think there's a balance to strike. and you can come at that from either primarily Fi or primarily Fe, but somewhere they do meet and overlap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And sometimes the group's values are about honoring the individual as well as they can. It can be a group value to respect individual differences and make room for them (such as the theory behind the Declaration of Independence and various US founding documents claiming to support diversity and respect the rights of individuals).

    Unfortunately, I blame reality for the friction between group and individual. There's no way to avoid conflict due to the differing scopes, and the only hope that seems to remain sometimes is just striking balance. The group must honor the individuals and the individuals must honor the group if community means to be preserved.

    Metaphorically, if the body ignores the needs of the individual cells within itself, the body will soon collapse when enough of those cells fail; but the cells that ignore the needs of the whole body in pursuit of their own growth end up being cancerous and kill themselves when the body eventually fails.
    good points. i like the body example, and the declaration.


    Quote Originally Posted by Affably Evil View Post
    I guess the ultimate point is, I'd rather be the one to articulate my emotional state than someone else trying to "help" me address and articulate it for me. Oftentimes trying to articulate an emotional state can be premature, because I need time to very specifically pinpoint what I'm feeling and where that feeling is coming from, and whether it is going to resurge.
    hehe hurricane affably seriously though, i totally get this, how it could be intrusive and annoying... i think what i, and possibly others, pick up on, is undertones... certain words or phrases, certain types of diction, etc (or body language IRL) - that lead me to the impression that someone is feeling something. and telling you that i sense that isn't meant to be pinning you down, i think usually it's even just trying to be aware of the other person and understanding their points that might not be conveyed in exact words, but in the way they word things. it's like the questions fidelia tends to ask, it's like checking in with you to see if what i understand is right. i think it messes up more often online because there are less clues, and obviously there's less social pressure - we can just be like HEY UR ANGRY LOLRZ without much lasting consequence - but IRL personally i'm pretty good with picking up someone's "tone" and running with it, which has really helped me in previous jobs - my (otherwise rather grouchy) boss would occasionally complement me on my reading of people, and it was because i tried so hard to feel out where they were at, so to speak. it wasn't to box them in; it was to show respect and interest, really. and to not misunderstand them and accidentally hurt them, because if they're in a good mood then i can use different, more direct language, and move faster in my work, while if someone is feeling sad or angry i can change how i act and speak to try to accommodate that emotion and make things more on par with their psychological state... and no offense, but i'd like to know if i should start taking a few precautions for a storm or not... being from the carolina coast, i know it can get a little rough!

  6. #656
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Esoteric: here's an idea. Since the questions you posed have been difficult for many of us to answer- for reasons that I still don't fully understand, but strongly suspect it's type related- how about modifying the questions.

    Maybe Fe'ers will find this easier to tackle?

    1. When your Feeling judgment Went Awry: Explain situation you personally experienced when your Feeling judgment caused problems. It can be your F function, or someone else’s.

    2. Why Did you Do That?: What was your justification for doing what it did?

    3. How Were Others Inconvenienced?

    I'm not even sure reducing it to "Feeling judgment" is enough, because it's still asking for something kind of vague. I can't think of anything more specific, though. Not right now anyway. Maybe someone else can come up with better suggestions (for the questions).
    [Been cow towing to the porcelain gods for the past 12 hours or so. Have several PMs and 50 posts to catch up on. Please be patient with me while I work through it chronologically. But for God's sake, whatever you do... do NOT eat the Ma Pao Tofu. ]

    I've thought a little about this after coming to the realization that the form of my question might not register with Introverted thinking very well. Perhaps it might be easier for NF Ti users to tap into their Se.

    For those who may not know, ENFJs and INFJs are Ti users. (While ENFPs and INFPs are Te users.)

    INFJ - Ni > Fe > Ti > Se
    ENFJ - Fe > Ni > Se > Ti

    I think the format of this exercise more readily speaks to Fi and Te. The way this format was oriented to the strengths of Fi and Te had never occurred to me until PeaceBaby's and Z Buck McFate's recent responses.

    But this doesn't mean this isn't a valuable exercise for you ENFJs and INFJs. In fact, it might make it all the more valuable.

    I'm sort of brainstorming here... so take this into consideration... but maybe ENFJs and INFJs could tap into their Se.

    For example, maybe you (i.e., NF Fe-user) could consider coming up with your own Fe gone awry story as a project with a tangible outcome. The outcome would be typing up your Fe gone awry story (even if you don't post it to this forum). My guess is that Tertiary or Inferior Se users may find this process a bit overwhelming... sort of like they are jumping off a cliff because that is how we all experience our inferior (and on occasion) tertiary functions.

    But just because it might stir up discomfort doesn't mean it might not be a valuable exercise. Perhaps you can recall the expressions and mannerisms of the other people involved in your Fe gone awry story. Perhaps you can remember if they physically removed themselves from your presence. Or if they quit interacting with you by ceasing correspondence. These all seem like observable behaviors that would be picked up by Se.

    And once you recounted the behaviors your observed, perhaps you could use your Ni to extrapolate how someone who displayed these concrete, observable behaviors might feel.

    Ehhhh.... I'm not sure if this makes much sense. I'm having a hard time articulating it.

    I'm completely fascinated by the idea that the very nature of the Naikan self-reflection exercise may bypass the INFJ / ENFJ experience. If true, this has interesting implications. I'm not sure what they are yet, but it feels like another piece of the puzzle to me.
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  7. #657
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    So it's fear then, basically? Fear to break with tradition? ("this is the proper and therefore safe way to go about establishing a friendship") Fear that you are giving them some kind of power over you?

    Could it be that while Fi treasures and builds impromptu intimacy, Fe fears it? (Fi will be a shadow function for Fe users, after all);
    and that while Fe treasures the safety and reassurance of structure and solidity in relationship, Fi fears that? (for the same reason - such fear being experienced as a kind of contempt or fear of entrapment)
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Again, I don't understand the irritation - I phrased it as a question, not a statement. I read "fear" in some of the posts and sought clarification - instead there is a certain defensiveness in response rather than a straightforward challenge to or negation of, my interpretation.
    This is puzzling to me.
    Thanks for trying to explain. I still don't think I get it though.
    Probably can't get it.
    I don’t think it’s so much about Fe’s fear of breaking tradition so much as it is Pi. When perception is turned primarily inwards (especially in P doms- where Pe is their least function), there’s less malleability with the external world. I suppose you could still call it fear in a way, but essentially it’s because we aren’t set up to adapt to change in the external world as readily as other types. It’s our default to re-shape our perception of someone, rather than get rid of the person or start to avoid them or whatever. This can be incredibly toxic with the wrong people, so we’re more careful than most about whom we let in to begin with.

    Where Fe (and therefore Pi) are in the dom/aux positions, this is probably why we’re less inclined to open up to people right away- not because we’re adhering to tradition out of fear.
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  8. #658
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    well yes, and certainly Fe gets a bad rap too sometimes... though given the recent tone that's been picked up along a few posts, i very much appreciated this example, and it's positive to see how Fi can be selfless in being selfish. i would appreciate a counterexample for Fe as well, if anyone can think of one. maybe like a social worker who uses all her contacts to make a better life for many children, working one child at a time. she's not always focused on the child's inner being, but she works to create the external conditions necessary for that child to be able to flourish. and through being selfless, she is personally satisfied. there is no mutual exclusion between selfless and selfish. they can go hand in hand, for better or for worse.

    of course, not to godwin, but hitler was the extreme example - regardless of what type he was or what functions he used - of selflessness gone wrong. he thought he was creating a better world for everyone, but he was really just perpetuating his own little vision of what things should be. i think Fi gone wrong and Fe gone wrong both meet at this same place of enforcing something harmful on everyone, including yourself, because you think it's right. it's like a circle...



    (apologies for the shitty arrows, and values/direction is fairly exchangeable. i think there's something more active about Fe, though)

    it's the inevitable downfall of "evil" or the "bad guys" that we see in movies, because that vicious cycle necessarily contradicts itself. at a certain point, what's ideal for the evil individual and what's ideal for the evil group doesn't mesh anymore, and the group necessarily self-destructs, thereby weakening each individual's power. if you read harry potter you watch it really obviously with the death eaters, and peter pettigrew in particular, who falls into the sad trap of thinking that obeying moldy voldy is going to give him lasting personal security and power. and yet ultimately, he loses any power to achieve what is good for himself or the group as a whole.

    so, for the counterexample, how about a small group of people bonding together to fight something that's going wrong in the greater scheme? the order of the phoenix, lol. or a government legislating to enforce punishment for individual hate crimes. that would seem to be Fe-Fi synergy. when you work towards some kind of change, and you realize that it has to happen both on group and individual levels. speak only to the group and everyone will go home and revert to what they were doing within a few days. speak only to the individual and there will be no drive to change things at the group level. i think that's how most social movements in the US - and probably in the globe - have tended to work. you have to put the two drives together.
    Very cool, I like where you're going with this.
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  9. #659
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ that was a really good explanation, z buck. i get it now.

    i did read "fear" too though, just like morgan, and i think this is why -

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    we’re more careful than most about whom we let in to begin with.
    it's in the sense of protection. it's not a bad thing, certainly, i think fears are very good at a deep level. if we didn't have them we'd be killing ourselves off and hurting one another left and right.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco
    Very cool, I like where you're going with this.
    thanks! anyone is more than welcome to alter/challenge/build off of anything in there. this is that whole ENFP gotta talk to figure out things... lol. i think i'm finally beginning to reconcile the concepts of "good" and "evil". i have trouble seeing them as black-and-white moral commands, but i could begin to grasp them in the sense of what is ultimately healing and what is ultimately harmful.

  10. #660
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't believe the Fi user places more value on the self - I think this is a profound misunderstanding.
    What if the Fi user's personal values revolve around group harmony or healing others - how would that look different from a Fe user's values?
    Pure Fi, so to speak, evaluates based on the self - everything is related back to their inner image of the ideal to evaluate it. Of course these ideals are NOT just about the Fi-dom's needs, they are basic concepts of what is good, like peace and love. The door doesn't just swing one way either; when you bring perceiving in, these values grow and are refined and interpreted by the context of reality. So in short, what you say is very true and an important point (as it's easy to confuse relating everything to an inner ideal with being self-absorbed), but cascadeco is not wrong regarding that pure form of Fi, which is not any real person.


    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Again, I was trying to highlight the two extremes; I still think to an extent Fi IS more about preferring/prioritizing self-values vs. what others might value - thus it is placing more value on self and ones' own, personalized world view and conscience...even your Good Samaritan example kind of illustrates this. Yes, the act and the value system of the Fi-er might be exceedingly selfless, but it's still their own value system propelling them - their Self - without regarding the systems of everyone else. (This isn't BAD!!) Your Good Samaritan example is a noble one, though. You could give a different example of an Fi-er who goes against 'Fe Norms' and has quite a horrific value system -- Fi wouldn't look quite as honorable or selfless in that light - but again it would be that Fi-'ers individualized conscience.

    I suppose the Group Norm element that you speak of is a component of Fe, and yes, it too is a choice and can involve around self-interest (wanting to avoid conflict or not wanting to risk self to oppose group).

    This makes sense to me. I agree Fi and the 'right thing' definitely doesn't have to be the most selfish/convenient thing - and probably often isn't. But again, what I meant by Fi being more self-focused is again more tied to adhering to ones one personal system/view and disregarding all else/others - at the extreme. I'm not trying to judge this. It's not bad in and of itself. But I think it still provides a distinction between Fi and Fe. Just as Fe at its extreme probably wouldn't have any personal value system/'individual conscience', as it is too concerned with what everyone else is doing and what other peoples' beliefs/values are.

    Agree with this.

    (But disagree that Fe is wholly about norms. If that's the case, I might have to rethink my Fe-ness. Just as I'd imagine Fi is much vaster than 'individual conscience' and has other components to it.)
    Well, Fe has to be wholly about norms or results or something external if there is no relating it to the self. "Norms" tend to be accepted because they prove to be a means to an end that is seen as good, so in a sense Fe uses this as its gauge for good - the norm means good results, so the norm is valued. If it seems like a big circle, I think it is. It reminds me of the "Psychology of Fashion" thread I commented in last night - what comes first, the standard or the feeling associated with it? The chicken or the egg?

    Not to be too repetitive, but it's the perceiving function that allows both a Fe & Fi person to "see" beyond their preferred judging system. This is why a real Fe-er is not wholly about norms. And this is why a real Fi-er is not an individual conscience that goes wholly unaffected by norms.

    Anyway, my main point was I agree with you on these pure definitions of Fe & Fi, but the reason they are not representative of real people is because we're all more than one function. One function shows an imbalance, which is never pretty.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And my values aren't carbon copies of the Fe ones, but their derivation is from Fe values and taking them to a personal level, an idealistic level, that over my formative years led to the creation of a personal code of conduct. Which is, I might add, still being refined and tested and maturing.
    Most definitely....I can see the meaning behind Fe values and see that it aligns with my inner sense of the ideal, which is not just about me and my needs (those are determined off of this ideal also). Often times, Fe has good reasons behind its protocol and efficient means of meeting my own ideals, and so I can adopt some of it. I think for the Fi-er it HAS to relate to the inner ideal in SOME way though. This is not difficult to do when you perceive - it's easy to figure out why something is the way it is, and then you can appreciate it - you can value it. An INFP may even build off a Fe value by relating it to their ideal, accepting it as valid, and then tweaking it further to refine it so as to come even closer to the ideal. I think Fi, like Ti, wants to make it more consistenty true/ideal, which is why a focus is on principles over rules, so its less context dependent. Fe, like Te, wants to make it workable, which requires figuring out how to apply these principles in specific situations.

    I do care about what people think, and what they do, but there are times when one must not sacrifice principles, and must do what is the RIGHT thing to do.
    I think this comes down to when there is a conflict with the external standard and our inner ideal. Something has to be sacrificed. It's the last resort option again. This is where conflict comes in, and I think what the OP was getting at.

    As Seymour said, it has more to do with misunderstanding than one side being right or wrong. To resolve it, though, can require both sides to adjust a bit and meet in the middle. Both need to perceive what the real meaning is behind the other's actions/words, so they don't make assumptions based on their own manner of gauging value.

    Honestly, this is why I feel that Fi is more often misunderstood - being introverted and not based directly on a consensus, it is less apparent to other people why a Fi-dom feels a certain way. Fe is "out there" & having consensus behind it, is accepted by more people, so there is less invalidating happening to it. I think when it feels invalidated, it may be by a Fi-er, who is really just trying to assert the validity of their own feelings. Most of the time, the Fe-er does not need to adopt the Fi-ers feelings to validate them (which they may think is the case, as Fe works more by adjusting to the external - it needs to "mirror" or whatever), but just allow them to feel that way without judging it. Allow more than one way of right to exist, as often things fall into grey areas anyway. Fe-ers with good perception do this a lot - that's pretty much what empathizing is. It validates a feeling you do not have, without necessarily saying it is the most correct feeling. If correction in behavior is needed even after understanding the core feeling, it's best to try and do so without invalidating that feeling.

    I'll stop before this tangent grows....
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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