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  1. #641
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    hehe, you caught me before i had a chance to edit that. sorry, it wasn't meant to indict you, and i only realized after i hit "submit" how it probably sounded. i spoke a little too rash and quickly because i was all worked up. i appreciate and completely agree with your points, they're important. it was a well-worded and informative broadcast.
    Oh... well, no worries!! I was slightly embarassed, tis all, simply because you're right, I didn't address the other elements of your post, just picked a part of it to focus on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar
    As usual cas, I always appreciate your posts since you espouse balance. Like a jig saw puzzle, all the Fi pieces can be unique and true to who they are while still contributing to the big Fe picture we call society. Is any butterfly losing its individuality to be a part of the overall picture?
    Hey, thanks. And as to the reverse, I think it's good and healthy for Fe users to reach a point in their lives where they do some serious self-reflection and try to nail down & define who they are as individuals, gain that certainty, and thereby be better equipped to have healthier relationships, assert their own self more, and find their Fe 'niche'/picture with which to make the biggest impact (which I haven't found, btw. lol. ahahaha. And I don't think that's even a great analogy or reversal of what you're saying)

    My comments are to you as well as, 'broadcast mode.'
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #642
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Hey, just had a thought:

    How does this feel?

    Te / Fe: what you see is what you get
    Ti / Fi: this is more than the sum total of the parts
    Je is context, Ji is subtext.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    some Fi users don't relate to certain 'Fi things' and some Fe users don't relate to certain 'Fe things' (because respectively, both have decent access to the other 'F' function).
    Doesn't that imply that Fe and Fi have a fundamentally oppositional nature? Do you think that's true? Why would it be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #643
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post

    Doesn't that imply that Fe and Fi have a fundamentally oppositional nature? Do you think that's true? Why would it be?
    I think the extent with which the Fe-user places more value on the group/other than self will vary, just as maybe the extent with which the Fi-user places more value on the self than on the group/other will vary. An Fe-user might learn not to automatically follow the kneejerk response of trying to please or appease others at expense of self, or of even finding self, because he might learn that devaluing or ignoring self does no one any good in the long run and might create unhealthy relationship dynamics, just as an Fi-user might learn not to automatically follow the kneejerk response of prioritizing his own feelings/needs at the expense of the other, or of not focusing on the other as much.

    I realize I'm grossly stereotyping here, or maybe even stating flat-out inaccuracies re. Fe and Fi, but think those would be the extremes - the 'caricatures', if you will, of the two. Imo the extreme Fi would be appeasing self and negating others, and the extreme Fe would be appeasing others and basically negating/obliterating self. In this sense (and I'm unclear on whether this is in fact Fi / Fe, or whether I'm just talking about general psych stuff like ego vs. , uh, the others.. lol), yes, they are in a way fundamentally oppositional. But in the sense of how Fe and Fi is generally discussed on the boards? I'm not sure if they're oppositional. Maybe they are since they have different focal points. Dunno. But I believe it is possible to strike a balance between both, finding a way to stay true to yourself as well as be attuned to others and the larger scheme of things without it wiping out your own essence/voice.

    I also might not know what I'm talking about. I tend not to like to speak in terms of functions, simply because I don't like making blanket statements about one or the other.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #644
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think too it's important to remember, again, that these are simply preferences. It doesn't mean the Fi-user isn't going to care for external harmony or be attuned to and place importance on interpersonal dynamics, nor that the Fe-user isn't going to value and see a lot of importance in inner awareness. As in all things I think finding some semblance of a balance is best; but, I'm also aware that there's the camp who doesn't really see as much value in that, and instead believe that focusing on ones preferences/strengths is of most value.

    I also think again this is where it's easy to want to fall into the trap of making mbti really black-and-white. I mean, the nature of it is such that it is a means of describing and highlighting differences - obviously we each have preferences. BUT, I also believe there's a spectrum within all that gets lost in these sorts of discussions -- so some will perhaps be extreme Fi or Fe, with little of the opposite, others will fall somewhere in between. I think it's this spectrum that is what creates so much disagreement in threads, as well as why some Fi users don't relate to certain 'Fi things' and some Fe users don't relate to certain 'Fe things' (because respectively, both have decent access to the other 'F' function).

    And of course the ongoing issue that'll never really go away in any sort of mbti discussion - the fact that we each have different ideas of what constitutes Fi vs. Fe (or any of the other 6 functions), and more problematically, that we assign certain behaviors to certain functions.
    There's also the matter of perceiving coming into play. I don't think I am using Fe so much when I am concerned about external harmony or the group or whatever (and I do care about those things or my previous post would not express feeling alienated, because I would not care enough to feel it); I think I am using Ne, to see how in order for Fi to reach its ideal, I need to value these external things. I relate the external values to my inner ideals and the ideals to the external. In this way I can be comfortable with adopting Fe values/standards/protocol without any sense of violation to my Fi feelings. I am also not immune to consensus or influence from external standards.

    Now, I really can't explain FeJi very well....and I'm more interested in hearing a FeJi person explain themselves anyway.

    This is why I tend to concur with skylights; I see Fi & Fe as sort of starting at a different end to meet in the middle and to even overlap, adopting the other's aim to meet their original one (and I don't mean that in a very literal sense - I don't say to myself "I will adopt Fe values to better aid in reaching my Fi values").
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #645
    Member Affably Evil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    So it's fear then, basically? Fear to break with tradition? ("this is the proper and therefore safe way to go about establishing a friendship") Fear that you are giving them some kind of power over you?
    No, I would think that it would be Ni dominance wanting to be able to project into the future, and then being able to make personal adjustments to position oneself for the future that is most desirable. The emphasis with italics that you put here sounds like you're deriding something of a Fe-Si combination of wanting to work within established, successful norms - but is inaccurately attributing desiring prolonged, invested knowledge and being reluctant to not do so with fear.

    Speaking only for myself and not Fidelia or other INFJs, I only very rarely have the urge to connect with people on a deep, intimate level — though when I do, I go all the way down. I have a very emotionally rich life, so trying to establish something like that with people that I am not already deeply invested in leads to overextension, stress, and unhealthy situations. And that's ignoring the issues of betrayal, embarrassment, etc. My emotional boundaries are already low enough, I have no desire to add to the pool dozens of unpredictable elements. For me, it has nothing to do with some kind of "social form" of establishing friendships and everything to do with being able to sustain my sense of self as I let people in. And Fe helps me to mediate that by giving those boundaries external structure.

    Heh, an Fe user being irritated at being misread/mislabeled, even though I was not the Fe user in question.

    I've just finished reading all 600+ posts on this thread, but I find myself reluctant to contribute because it seems too simple to me to try to understand function preference disagreements in isolation with each other. Incorporating dominant or tertiary functions was mentioned some ways back, but dropped because presumably the scope would overwhelm and complicate this already bursting, interesting thread. But I have sincerely appreciated reading all the posts — both those that have clashed and those that have affirmed — they've all been very enlightening. I've got a lot to reflect on. I look forward to seeing where this thread goes!
    5w4 sx/sp

  6. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I realize I'm grossly stereotyping here, or maybe even stating flat-out inaccuracies re. Fe and Fi, but think those would be the extremes - the 'caricatures', if you will, of the two. Imo the extreme Fi would be appeasing self and negating others, and the extreme Fe would be appeasing others and basically negating/obliterating self. In this sense (and I'm unclear on whether this is in fact Fi / Fe, or whether I'm just talking about general psych stuff like ego vs. , uh, the others.. lol), yes, they are in a way fundamentally oppositional. But in the sense of how Fe and Fi is generally discussed on the boards? I'm not sure if they're oppositional. Maybe they are since they have different focal points. Dunno. But I believe it is possible to strike a balance between both, finding a way to stay true to yourself as well as be attuned to others and the larger scheme of things without it wiping out your own essence/voice.
    Focal points: oppositional
    Fe and Fi: complementary
    Like they both have/are a camera that zooms (predominantly) in one direction.

    (Great Thread )

  7. #647
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think the extent with which the Fe-user places more value on the group/other than self will vary, just as maybe the extent with which the Fi-user places more value on the self than on the group/other will vary.
    ...
    IMO the extreme Fi would be appeasing self and negating others, and the extreme Fe would be appeasing others and basically negating/obliterating self.
    I don't believe the Fi user places more value on the self - I think this is a profound misunderstanding.
    What if the Fi user's personal values revolve around group harmony or healing others - how would that look different from a Fe user's values?

    I'm reminded of that classic lesson on of the meaning of neighbourliness: The Good Samaritan.
    We have a Jew who has been beaten up, mugged, left for dead. We have 2 of his fellow Jews who walk past him on the street - this becomes the "norm" for behaviour. (If you think about group dynamics, this is often true. I'm thinking of those experiments where people "electrocute" a stranger because it's sanctioned by an authority, or those cases where so many people stand by and watch someone being mugged/raped/murdered , because "that's what everyone else is doing". To me, this is Fe, a group norm is established, and everyone follows it mindlessly. It's not inherently compassionate. It's a reflection of human evolution as a social species - like flocking starlings all moving in unison, there is a sound rationale to recognising and mirroring group behaviour, and that rationale revolves around self-interest even whilst it preoccupies itself with staying in the centre of the flock.)
    Then we have a Samaritan (from a group which traditionally despises Jews, and so the norm would be for this person to ignore the Jew's plight too) but instead, he sees the individual and not the ethnicity or the social norm, and is moved by compassion to help the guy out - above and beyond the "call of duty".

    Jesus came back to this message time and time again - the difference between "the spirit of the law" and "the letter of the law". The importance of subtext. The divining of principle from practice. How does one do this without Fi? I don't get that.

    Fi says, "I don't care what anyone else thinks, or what anyone else does, (or about how this hurts me personally), this is the RIGHT thing to do". Most of us recognise that the right thing to do is not the most selfish or convenient thing to do.

    I'm beginning to see Fe/Fi a bit like "cultural superego" vs "individual conscience". There should exist a virtuous circle type of relationship - where does Fi draw its values from if not externally (though not unconditionally)? "No man is an island". How do Fe norms get established/changed if not through the existence of Fi?
    There needn't be opposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I can be comfortable with adopting Fe values/standards/protocol without any sense of violation to my Fi feelings. I am also not immune to consensus or influence from external standards.
    Right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Affably Evil View Post
    No, I would think that it would be Ni dominance wanting to be able to project into the future, and then being able to make personal adjustments to position oneself for the future that is most desirable. The emphasis with italics that you put here sounds like you're deriding something of a Fe-Si combination of wanting to work within established, successful norms - but is inaccurately attributing desiring prolonged, invested knowledge and being reluctant to not do so with fear.

    Speaking only for myself and not Fidelia or other INFJs, I only very rarely have the urge to connect with people on a deep, intimate level — though when I do, I go all the way down. I have a very emotionally rich life, so trying to establish something like that with people that I am not already deeply invested in leads to overextension, stress, and unhealthy situations. And that's ignoring the issues of betrayal, embarrassment, etc. My emotional boundaries are already low enough, I have no desire to add to the pool dozens of unpredictable elements. For me, it has nothing to do with some kind of "social form" of establishing friendships and everything to do with being able to sustain my sense of self as I let people in. And Fe helps me to mediate that by giving those boundaries external structure.

    Heh, an Fe user being irritated at being misread/mislabeled, even though I was not the Fe user in question.
    Again, I don't understand the irritation - I phrased it as a question, not a statement. I read "fear" in some of the posts and sought clarification - instead there is a certain defensiveness in response rather than a straightforward challenge to or negation of, my interpretation.
    This is puzzling to me.
    Thanks for trying to explain. I still don't think I get it though.
    Probably can't get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peer View Post
    Focal points: oppositional
    Fe and Fi: complementary
    Like they both have/are a camera that zooms (predominantly) in one direction.
    It's funny you should say that. The first image that came to mind when I read PB's post is that Fe/Te is like a photograph and Fi/Ti is like the negative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #648
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't believe the Fi user places more value on the self - I think this is a profound misunderstanding.
    What if the Fi user's personal values revolve around group harmony or healing others - how would that look different from a Fe user's values?
    Important point; yes, this is possible. Maybe pretty common?

    Again, I was trying to highlight the two extremes; I still think to an extent Fi IS more about preferring/prioritizing self-values vs. what others might value - thus it is placing more value on self and ones' own, personalized world view and conscience...even your Good Samaritan example kind of illustrates this. Yes, the act and the value system of the Fi-er might be exceedingly selfless, but it's still their own value system propelling them - their Self - without regarding the systems of everyone else. (This isn't BAD!!) Your Good Samaritan example is a noble one, though. You could give a different example of an Fi-er who goes against 'Fe Norms' and has quite a horrific value system -- Fi wouldn't look quite as honorable or selfless in that light - but again it would be that Fi-'ers individualized conscience.

    I'm reminded of that classic lesson on of the meaning of neighbourliness: The Good Samaritan.
    We have a Jew who has been beaten up, mugged, left for dead. We have 2 of his fellow Jews who walk past him on the street - this becomes the "norm" for behaviour. (If you think about group dynamics, this is often true. I'm thinking of those experiments where people "electrocute" a stranger because it's sanctioned by an authority, or those cases where so many people stand by and watch someone being mugged/raped/murdered , because "that's what everyone else is doing". To me, this is Fe, a group norm is established, and everyone follows it mindlessly. It's not inherently compassionate. It's a reflection of human evolution as a social species - like flocking starlings all moving in unison, there is a sound rationale to recognising and mirroring group behaviour, and that rationale revolves around self-interest even whilst it preoccupies itself with staying in the centre of the flock.)
    Then we have a Samaritan (from a group which traditionally despises Jews, and so the norm would be for this person to ignore the Jew's plight too) but instead, he sees the individual and not the ethnicity or the social norm, and is moved by compassion to help the guy out - above and beyond the "call of duty".
    I suppose the Group Norm element that you speak of is a component of Fe, and yes, it too is a choice and can involve around self-interest (wanting to avoid conflict or not wanting to risk self to oppose group).

    Fi says, "I don't care what anyone else thinks, or what anyone else does, (or about how this hurts me personally), this is the RIGHT thing to do". Most of us recognise that the right thing to do is not the most selfish or convenient thing to do.
    This makes sense to me. I agree Fi and the 'right thing' definitely doesn't have to be the most selfish/convenient thing - and probably often isn't. But again, what I meant by Fi being more self-focused is again more tied to adhering to ones one personal system/view and disregarding all else/others - at the extreme. I'm not trying to judge this. It's not bad in and of itself. But I think it still provides a distinction between Fi and Fe. Just as Fe at its extreme probably wouldn't have any personal value system/'individual conscience', as it is too concerned with what everyone else is doing and what other peoples' beliefs/values are.

    I'm beginning to see Fe/Fi a bit like "cultural superego" vs "individual conscience". There should exist a virtuous circle type of relationship - where does Fi draw its values from if not externally (though not unconditionally)? "No man is an island". How do Fe norms get established/changed if not through the existence of Fi?
    There needn't be opposition.
    Agree with this.

    (But disagree that Fe is wholly about norms. If that's the case, I might have to rethink my Fe-ness. Just as I'd imagine Fi is much vaster than 'individual conscience' and has other components to it.)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #649
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't believe the Fi user places more value on the self - I think this is a profound misunderstanding.
    What if the Fi user's personal values revolve around group harmony or healing others - how would that look different from a Fe user's values?
    I agree with this statement.

    This is where any discussion gets muddy because some of my Fi values ARE about group harmony, caring about other people, helping others etc. Those are not the exclusive environs of Fe. And my values aren't carbon copies of the Fe ones, but their derivation is from Fe values and taking them to a personal level, an idealistic level, that over my formative years led to the creation of a personal code of conduct. Which is, I might add, still being refined and tested and maturing.

    (Like a mighty oak tree, wide and broad and strong. Maybe Fe is the willow tree, flexing with the changes of weather, accommodating and bending. Both have their strengths.)

    That's why the following sentence doesn't play exactly right for me:

    Fi says, "I don't care what anyone else thinks, or what anyone else does, (or about how this hurts me personally), this is the RIGHT thing to do". Most of us recognise that the right thing to do is not the most selfish or convenient thing to do.
    I do care about what people think, and what they do, but there are times when one must not sacrifice principles, and must do what is the RIGHT thing to do.

    If you spend a lifetime believing a certain principle, to discard it when inconvenient or at a point of crisis is tantamount to living a lie.

    And oh yes, it can get an individual into a whole heap of trouble and pain and stress.

    Then we have a Samaritan (from a group which traditionally despises Jews, and so the norm would be for this person to ignore the Jew's plight too) but instead, he sees the individual and not the ethnicity or the social norm, and is moved by compassion to help the guy out - above and beyond the "call of duty".
    As a point of clarification, Jews despised Samaritans as well, so the feeling was generally mutual (without a big long history dissertation inserted here).

    But that being said, it doesn't change the message at all. The essence is that what's RIGHT should transcend all other differences.

    PB's post is that Fe/Te is like a photograph and Fi/Ti is like the negative.
    Ne moment:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHo43B6nu60&ob=av2e"]J. Geils Band - Freeze Frame[/YOUTUBE]
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  10. #650
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I do care about what people think, and what they do, but there are times when one must not sacrifice principles, and must do what is the RIGHT thing to do.
    I resonate with that.

    As a point of clarification, Jews despised Samaritans as well, so the feeling was generally mutual (without a big long history dissertation inserted here).
    yes. They both loathed each other. Jesus was speaking to Jews; he knew their loathing for the Samaritans would be shaken by the reality that the Jews also hated them as much as they hated the Jews, and yet the person they would expect to loathe them and whose help they would not want was shown to be the one who did help and did not ask for anything in return or impose any sort of obligation to the victim.

    But that being said, it doesn't change the message at all. The essence is that what's RIGHT should transcend all other differences.
    Which leads me back into what you said earlier, since the group's values ARE what is considered right:
    This is where any discussion gets muddy because some of my Fi values ARE about group harmony, caring about other people, helping others etc. Those are not the exclusive environs of Fe.
    Exactly. And sometimes the group's values are about honoring the individual as well as they can. It can be a group value to respect individual differences and make room for them (such as the theory behind the Declaration of Independence and various US founding documents claiming to support diversity and respect the rights of individuals).

    Unfortunately, I blame reality for the friction between group and individual. There's no way to avoid conflict due to the differing scopes, and the only hope that seems to remain sometimes is just striking balance. The group must honor the individuals and the individuals must honor the group if community means to be preserved.

    Metaphorically, if the body ignores the needs of the individual cells within itself, the body will soon collapse when enough of those cells fail; but the cells that ignore the needs of the whole body in pursuit of their own growth end up being cancerous and kill themselves when the body eventually fails.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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