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  1. #621
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    But you grow out of such things, hopefully. I mean, I hope you don't expect people to explain their feelings to you all the time just so you know it's not about you. It's almost never about you. (At least, that's been my experience in my life -- it's almost never about me.) If you can assume that up front, maybe it can help you stop introjecting like a madwoman. That's not good for you, and often a pain in the butt for the other person (ask me how I know that, too).

  2. #622
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post

    I wasn't suggesting you did that - I was referring to Qre:us' implication that Fi does that.
    K,my bad. Consider my claws retracted
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  3. #623
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I have similar feelings, in that most of the stories I can think of, I was in the wrong in an Fe sense. Now, I may have been unaware of the expectation I was failing to meet or how the other person would perceive it, but it's hard for me to put those incidents out there since I really don't feel justified in my actions. In that sense, I feel like the issue for me was "lack of Fe awareness" rather than "Fi gone awry."

    I find it easier to talk about failures of understanding, rather than saying Fe or Fi went awry. Miscommunications happen, even when those functions are operating correctly and are being self-consistent. Talking about one or the other going awry seems like a value judgment of the function. The problem isn't necessarily in either Fe or Fi, but in the disconnect between those perspectives.
    Love this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Can't say I appreciate the bolded. Nor was that what I meant. I never do force people to talk or to accept help. In fact, I don't, unless it comes up, then I'll offer, or if people ask for it themselves. Just don't shoot me for asking how you're doing if you're off and being interested in you. And yes, when asked what people can do to accomodate more, I'll be honest..I'd like to know what's going on, so I can accomodate and adapt, instead of being stuck with a feeling that's not mine and with no incling as to what it refers to. But that doesn't mean I demand it.
    Here's the thing, though. The way you've described it, it still sounds like you're trying to help the person by helping yourself get rid of the barking dog in your head. It's the person's issue, so as a friend, can you try to help them the way they would like to be helped? If they're in the middle of a problem that's causing them grief, can you listen to them and help them get it out of their systems, rather than mining their emotions on your terms or shutting down and going away? Maybe ask what they need from you? Or is the barking dog so loud that you absolutely can't put it aside and take their statements at face value? It would make me sad if I needed to talk out my problems and I felt like my friend was stuck on making me admit my emotions so they could feel better.
    Something Witty

  4. #624
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's why I literally took HOURS ... yes, HOURS to write the second one, the church story. The point wasn't the details, but I knew if the details didn't logically lead to the conclusion I drew, I would invite endless queries into whether or not I was reading the situation accurately. Trust me Fe users, the church story took 2 years to unfold, and I had endless time to examine and reexamine both myself and the players enough to feel 99% confidence in relaying it as an example.

    Ah, and that leads to the whole issue of trust too for Fe users in particular ... some people will feel more ready to trust me than others, just based on our current levels of familiarity.

    So, it is frustrating to have to justify oneself, instead of just inviting reflection on the message from the story.
    As I think I mentioned, I intentionally reflected on it before responding because I wanted to see if I could catch whatever it is we miss. And even after reflecting, something tells me I still missed the point (sent PB a PM with the response I didn't post because I reflected too long and it seemed too late). Unfortunately, Fe/Ti reflecting has a T default (since 'reflecting' is an introverted act), so no amount of reflecting directed by myself is going to yield the results a Fi user is looking for? Dunno.

    Something that really kind of stumps me about this thread is that I actually consistently test higher on Fi than Fe for cognitive function tests- so I'm pretty sure I fall somewhere near the middle of that F spectrum- yet a lot of what Fi'ers are saying here seems completely foreign to me.

    Anyway, I know what it's like to spend a couple of hours trying to express something- only to have people still miss the point- so I'm sorry that was frustrating for you.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #625
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I personally don't see why everyone's thinking the thread is devolving or getting off track. To me, even when we share our frustrations--especially when we share our frustrations--we get the other person's PERCEPTION of when Fe/Fi has gone awry. Not in the way the OP intended, but we get them the way they look to the actual recipient in the real world.
    I agree that tangential expression is bound to crop up, and surely has in our deviations, myself as guilty as anyone! And there's hopefully a great deal of value in that too.

    Does it seem reasonable for EW to try to re-explore her OP and bring the thread focus to that? Or does the format of the OP seem unappealing somehow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    @ the green: Is the mental function you are most comfortable with determining the 'most helpful mental function for this particular exercise'?

    And @ the red: are you suggesting the key to our self-actualization lies in using your functions? What are the determining factors in deciding the the best mental functions to use here?
    eeep, for educational purposes, I will jump in and say (since here I can be 3rd party, not having the questions directed right to me) that these seem like loaded questions, even though I don't think you mean them that way.

    They feel dangerous to me as an Fi user; I would be extremely wary trying to answer them, for fear I would offend you. Because my sense is that you are poised on the edge of being annoyed, and you're not yet, but could be if I step in the wrong direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    IMO, the thread as it has progressed has been far more useful to me than a litany of tightly formatted personal anecdotes about fe/fi gone awry. I'm just not sure (as someone- cascadeco? said before) that when things go awry it's ever the fault of one cognitive function in isolation. To me, that seems like a misappropriation of the concept of cognitive functions.
    I agree that's there's way more than cognitive functions at play ... but again, I feel EW does have the right to try to explore her OP here again.

    Or do you feel it would limit expression? It sure seems to have spawned a lot of discussion!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #626
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post


    Here's the thing, though. The way you've described it, it still sounds like you're trying to help the person by helping yourself get rid of the barking dog in your head. It's the person's issue, so as a friend, can you try to help them the way they would like to be helped? If they're in the middle of a problem that's causing them grief, can you listen to them and help them get it out of their systems, rather than mining their emotions on your terms or shutting down and going away? Maybe ask what they need from you? Or is the barking dog so loud that you absolutely can't put it aside and take their statements at face value? It would make me sad if I needed to talk out my problems and I felt like my friend was stuck on making me admit my emotions so they could feel better.
    I'll be honest, it depends on how much frustration that barking dog is causing me. And how much stress and exhaustion I'm suffering atm from other things.

    But, if you're important to me, and you're asking for my help, I'll do my very best to listen first, shut up, get all the facts, ask questions, make you feel heard before I go towards solutions (including self-reflecting).

    I tend to do that anyways, as I fear jumping to conclusions, so I like getting the entire backstory. Also, I know how hard it is to think logically and solve a problem when you're still emotionally distraught. So I'll be comforting and listening to you first. And usually that alraedy contains the info I need to select how I can best help you out.

    I *have* had moments where I was stressed for time and didn't take the time. I am guilty of that, I admit. Where I skip ahead and just give them the solution,coz it's so obvious to me. That always backfires, and gets you no where, experiences has taught me. Still, it's sometimes hard to avoid, especially if there's 100 other things going on. It sorta works if someone is really asking for a solution and isn't emotionally distraught, but even then it's not preferable as it allows you to jump to conclusions.

    Also, with Fe-users, I'll try to remember to not chime in with comparable stories to make them feel heard, but actually just say things like 'that sucks', 'that must be hard', etc, as I know they prefer it. I've been mistyped INFJ coz of that by some of those people. It drains me incredibly though as it requires conscious focus, whereas NeFi is something that just...naturally happens.

    If I feel it's vital to their personal growth that they explore and self-reflect, I will definitely go there....*after* they've calmed down though and have had a chance to tell me their story. Fi or Fe-users...everyone needs that, in order to get cracking at the solution, ime

    Lastly, you talking to me and confiding in me already helps. I don't *need*that emotion to disappear..I just need you to acknowledge something's wrong, so I can reassure my self-doubt (am I dreaming, am I making this up?). It also takes away my feeling of powerlessness. So it's win-win. I can accomodate the most negative feelings, as long as I know their origin (you) and preferably what caused them (the story will tell me)

    I do confess that once we get to the solution part and you're unwilling to self-reflect and keep yourself in that negative loop for weeks on end or even months..it becomes very draining. Coz that's where the powerlessness comes back again and all I can do is listen, but I also know that listening isn't what's going to help you at that point. At that point you either need to be forced to face your fears (self-reflecting) or given the time to figure that out on your own.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  7. #627
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I agree that tangential expression is bound to crop up, and surely has in our deviations, myself as guilty as anyone! And there's hopefully a great deal of value in that too.

    Does it seem reasonable for EW to try to re-explore her OP and bring the thread focus to that? Or does the format of the OP seem unappealing somehow?
    It seems a little unnecessary to rein it in at this point, since we're getting a version of seeing the awry-ness, and it was obvious the Fe users were having trouble framing things in that light. Also, there's something a bit unnatural about enforcing perimeters 60 pages in. I just think it became its own thing. EW started the thread, and if she wants it back to the original thing, and everyone's cool with that, so be it. I don't know that it will be as appealing to me. It feels a little bit like, "Everyone sit in a corner and think about what you've done!" I much prefer the organic discussion.

    Edit: Thank you, Satine! That's what I needed to understand.
    Something Witty

  8. #628
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ I just know that EW couldn't participate as much due to her work schedule, so it's like she was the gracious host of the party but we've all moved from her place to the pool party next door.

    For my role in derailing, I apologize, dear EW.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #629
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    As I think I mentioned, I intentionally reflected on it before responding because I wanted to see if I could catch whatever it is we miss. And even after reflecting, something tells me I still missed the point (sent PB a PM with the response I didn't post because I reflected too long and it seemed too late). Unfortunately, Fe/Ti reflecting has a T default (since 'reflecting' is an introverted act), so no amount of reflecting directed by myself is going to yield the results a Fi user is looking for? Dunno.
    I did receive your PM and have been ruminating on it, because you do raise some interesting thoughts in there, and with what you've just posted above. Thank you for sending it; if you wanted to post it I see no problem with that to see what discussion that might spawn.

    But, if you would rather I send you my thoughts personally, I am good with that too - it will take me just a little more time to cogently articulate mine.

    Let me know your preference.

    Something that really kind of stumps me about this thread is that I actually consistently test higher on Fi than Fe for cognitive function tests- so I'm pretty sure I fall somewhere near the middle of that F spectrum- yet a lot of what Fi'ers are saying here seems completely foreign to me.
    @bold: ya, we hear that a lot!

    Anyway, I know what it's like to spend a couple of hours trying to express something- only to have people still miss the point- so I'm sorry that was frustrating for you.
    You're gracious to acknowledge it, so thank you.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #630
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Hey, just had a thought:

    How does this feel?

    Te / Fe: what you see is what you get
    Ti / Fi: this is more than the sum total of the parts

    Hmmmm?

    Edit: depersonalized Ti / Fi for consistency.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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