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  1. #611
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I personally don't see why everyone's thinking the thread is devolving or getting off track. To me, even when we share our frustrations--especially when we share our frustrations--we get the other person's PERCEPTION of when Fe/Fi has gone awry. Not in the way the OP intended, but we get them the way they look to the actual recipient in the real world.

    Speaking for myself, even if I'm not affirming in every single post, and it looks like I'm just sharing my frustrations, I'm still very much listening to the other side and trying to determine where I could have handled a situation better with an Fi user. And sure, other factors and functions figure in, but in terms of usefulness, I'm not sure it's that important. I'm still getting new perspectives and new ideas to mull over and try in the future once I've processed them.

    I don't see the conflict in this thread as a bad thing. It hasn't once turned into "YOUR MOM!" or anything, and I think it's okay to take a break if it gets overwhelming. I don't think it's necessary to take it by its reins and get it back to the original format, because it has turned into a more organic conversation. I think it's obvious we're seeing examples of the awryness; we just have to decide what to do, individually, with the data.
    Something Witty

  2. #612
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Sorry to make your head hurt too EW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    The task at hand, as it has been defined, is not about finding logical inconsistencies in the stories people post. Again, there's nothing wrong with this, but it's sort of missing the point of this thread.
    The first example I chose to share was very simplistic, in order to try to discourage the "picking apart". I wanted it to be so obvious as to "Fi gone awry" ... my Fi reaction to an unquestionably unjust situation, so that no one would get bogged down in the details. (For those who may remember, I grew up with an INTP brother, so I know all about how the minutiae must form a logical path in order for him to believe what I am saying.)

    Of course for me, Ti is 8th in my function order, but as a programmer, I probably have a relatively decent use of it or I don't know if I could do my job. But I know I don't tell stories in a Ti friendly way.

    It's why I literally took HOURS ... yes, HOURS to write the second one, the church story. The point wasn't the details, but I knew if the details didn't logically lead to the conclusion I drew, I would invite endless queries into whether or not I was reading the situation accurately. Trust me Fe users, the church story took 2 years to unfold, and I had endless time to examine and reexamine both myself and the players enough to feel 99% confidence in relaying it as an example.

    Ah, and that leads to the whole issue of trust too for Fe users in particular ... some people will feel more ready to trust me than others, just based on our current levels of familiarity.

    So, it is frustrating to have to justify oneself, instead of just inviting reflection on the message from the story.

    I wish I had an answer, I will have to think about it myself.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #613
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    * edited. was lots of me blathering deep dark things and not much really for other people to bounce off of. i guess i thought it'd be helpful but in truth maybe you had to be there


    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah
    I don't see the conflict in this thread as a bad thing. It hasn't once turned into "YOUR MOM!" or anything, and I think it's okay to take a break if it gets overwhelming. I don't think it's necessary to take it by its reins and get it back to the original format, because it has turned into a more organic conversation. I think it's obvious we're seeing examples of the awryness; we just have to decide what to do, individually, with the data.
    this is exactly how i feel too - though i did return to the format because i understand its significance now. and for the lulz.

  4. #614
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    after sharing a big story or post, I feel like I gotta get out of here for a while.
    Holy macaroni, Batman. That is EXACTLY how I feel after I make a big post. Never consciously articulated this before, but think you explained exactly why it feels this way to me.

    (And, I'm working on this, btw.)

    But this time it's not my Fi, it's my job. Be back in 45 minutes.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  5. #615
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I also think this thread needs ENFJs.

    I mean, the I and E thing definitely takes part in this. I think ENFPs are way more open with their Fi than INFPs are and that INFPs are way more selective, despite it being somewhat the same process (that INFPs seem to have worked out even more than us). I think the same will be true for ENFJs and INFJs. I personally find it easier to connect with ENFJs as they're more open to connections, even if they use a different system.
    Yes....in your exchange with Qre:us, I found myself relating much more to Qre:us' viewpoint. IDK if it's because I am an introvert and because I am Fi-dm and not aux, but as I mentioned in more detail before, I can ignore other people's emotional states pretty easily. The only time I feel drawn into that healer mode is if they reach out to me in some way. Forcing someone to talk about an issue or to push help on them, well reminds me of Fe! It seems the same negative traits are applied to both functions, depending on which one the accuser possesses. It makes me wonder just how people are typing others - do you decide if someone is Fe or Fi based on how well you communicate, for instance?

    On an individual level, I can communicate just as well with many Fe-ers I know as with the Fi-ers I know; and with a few, even better, because we happen to have a closer relationship. In some ways, I can relate more to my ENFJ friends than ENFPs as they are F-dom like me, even if our functions are oriented in opposite ways. I find it complementary. Where I find problems with Fe is on a group level - it's almost a feeling of being ganged up on. It doesn't have to be individual people & often is not - it's just the Fe collective attitude pervading the social air. But then, I do better with one-on-one interactions, period.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #616
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    This poses an interesting problem because I would never want to invalidate a Ti-user's right to use Ti. I guess I would say that perhaps Ti isn't the most helpful mental function in this particular exercise. After all, functions are not right or wrong, per se. Instead they are more or less appropriate based on the needs of the situation. So at least to me the challenge (in terms of self-actualization) is not using the function you're most comfortable with but the function that works best for the matter at hand.

    So, I guess I'd say to Ti-users that while I can acknowledge your use of Ti as a valid choice for you, I'd also suggest that you be aware that in this exercise, which is about taking ownership of your own mental function's excesses, it may not be the best mental function to use here.

    The task at hand, as it has been defined, is not about finding logical inconsistencies in the stories people post. Again, there's nothing wrong with this, but it's sort of missing the point of this thread.

    That's about as far as I got before my head started to hurt from thinking about all this stuff. Anyone want to chime in on this?
    @ the green: Is the mental function you are most comfortable with determining the 'most helpful mental function for this particular exercise'?

    And @ the red: are you suggesting the key to our self-actualization lies in using your functions? What are the determining factors in deciding the the best mental functions to use here?
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #617
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Where I find problems with Fe is on a group level - it's almost a feeling of being ganged up on. It doesn't have to be individual people & often is not - it's just the Fe collective attitude pervading the social air. But then, I do better with one-on-one interactions, period.
    It's like you're afraid of people.

    No, wait, that's us INFJs.

  8. #618
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    IMO, the thread as it has progressed has been far more useful to me than a litany of tightly formatted personal anecdotes about fe/fi gone awry. I'm just not sure (as someone- cascadeco? said before) that when things go awry it's ever the fault of one cognitive function in isolation. To me, that seems like a misappropriation of the concept of cognitive functions.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #619
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Yes....in your exchange with Qre:us, I found myself relating much more to Qre:us' viewpoint. IDK if it's because I am an introvert and because I am Fi-dm and not aux, but as I mentioned in more detail before, I can ignore other people's emotional states pretty easily. The only time I feel drawn into that healer mode is if they reach out to me in some way. Forcing someone to talk about an issue or to push help on them, well reminds me of Fe! It seems the same negative traits are applied to both functions, depending on which one the accuser possesses. It makes me wonder just how people are typing others - do you decide if someone is Fe or Fi based on how well you communicate, for instance?

    On an individual level, I can communicate just as well with many Fe-ers I know as with the Fi-ers I know; and with a few, even better, because we happen to have a closer relationship. In some ways, I can relate more to my ENFJ friends than ENFPs as they are F-dom like me, even if our functions are oriented in opposite ways. I find it complementary. Where I find problems with Fe is on a group level - it's almost a feeling of being ganged up on. It doesn't have to be individual people & often is not - it's just the Fe collective attitude pervading the social air. But then, I do better with one-on-one interactions, period.
    Can't say I appreciate the bolded. Nor was that what I meant. I never do force people to talk or to accept help. In fact, I don't, unless it comes up, then I'll offer, or if people ask for it themselves. Just don't shoot me for asking how you're doing if you're off and being interested in you. And yes, when asked what people can do to accomodate more, I'll be honest..I'd like to know what's going on, so I can accomodate and adapt, instead of being stuck with a feeling that's not mine and with no incling as to what it refers to. But that doesn't mean I demand it.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  10. #620
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It's like you're afraid of people.

    No, wait, that's us INFJs.
    In all seriousness, I kind of am, but that has a lot less to do with Fi than a mild social anxiety. Although, sometimes I feel it formed partially to learning as a child that I am out of sync with those around me and might receive a negative reaction from them because of it. The whole Fi-Si loop perpetuates this feeling, but most of the time, when I don't fall into that mode and utilize my Ne properly, then I'm less wary of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Can't say I appreciate the bolded. Nor was that what I meant. I never do force people to talk or to accept help. In fact, I don't, unless it comes up, then I'll offer, or if people ask for it themselves. Just don't shoot me for asking how you're doing if you're off and being interested in you. And yes, when asked what people can do to accomodate more, I'll be honest..I'd like to know what's going on, so I can accomodate and adapt, instead of being stuck with a feeling that's not mine and with no incling as to what it refers to. But that doesn't mean I demand it.
    I wasn't suggesting you did that - I was referring to Qre:us' implication that Fi does that.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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