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  1. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post



    lol! when i am on a rampage i am STJ central. or last minute studying. i kick last minute studying ASS.
    I think it's how I kept a 3.9 GPA. The problem is that people don't like me when I'm that way.

    And frankly, I hate being control, though I have some bizarre urge to handle things if no one else will.

    i always test INF too. at first i thought INFP but then when i was first learning about the functions i thought i was INFJ mostly because i am fairly clearly more N than F, and i have a few little latent J thought processes. but, complete lack of Ti. and later i realized i wasn't quite so hot on Ni or Fe either. i'm pretty happy with the ENFP label at this point, though. it's withstood self-questioning better than either INF type.
    I think I act pretty J in real life in various ways, but it seriously appears that I have Fi rather than Fe.

    If I totally ignore function theory and embrace Kiersey, then I could be INFJ. I could probably even be Socionics INFj.

    But according to MBTI and function theory? NO WAY. I'm so Fi it's obvious (which is decidedly not INFJ), and I'm not really passive enough to qualify as INFP, either.





    WHAT DO YOU MEAN REACTIVE AND EMO!?!? :steam::steam: am not







    It sucks, because I think boys I like notice it more than anybody.

  2. #592
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    yeah, good point. i think they're hard to unravel sometimes.
    Definitely....I think it was peacebaby who said once it's like trying to unbake a cake. I find it easier to discuss these things from theoretical standpoint because of that, but then all these real life examples also make me want to ask the reverse of the usual SP request: "Um, can I get an ABSTRACT example? Thanks...". All this concrete talk feels so specific it misses the point, from my view...

    huh. hence you guys being generally more okay with hanging out with a person in a difficult emotional state that they're in - helping them heal, while i prefer motivating... which i suppose is really healing too, in the sense of strengthening, but in any case i see the difference. yes, and in some ways that motivation is very driven by Ne because i can't be everything on my own, so at least i can help others be it. i can't be a field of wildflowers myself, but i can help others bloom, so to speak. both for their own joy and for the sheer beauty of it.
    I think that Fi in many ways is more visible in an ExFP because of this. It supports Pe, and so it's used more than guarded. Particularly in ESFPs, Fi is foreign to me in many ways. There's such a direct link to their personal experience, it can seem Fe-ish at times. There's such an awareness and valuing of what is "real" that the idealistic aspect of Fi is almost lost or just translated very differently.

    On a tangent now.... IxFPs' feeling can seem "invisible" to many; even our emotions can go under the radar for awhile. I think it was Seymour who said we often appear aloof or "quiet but nice"; for myself, in situations with those I am not close to, I'd call it "harmlessly reserved", which people project niceness or aloofness onto, depending on what they are inclined to think already. This is because our Feeling is largely kept inside.

    I can't even remember what all I've posted in here now, but there can be two modes to pure Fi: Fi that cares & Fi that doesn't care. If I seem passive, it's because I don't care, and 90% of the time I don't care about what other people seem to find important. It's definitely NOT a lack of spine or ability to be assertive when necessary - it's failure to identify the issue as significant. I worked with an ESTP who would call me "aggressive". This is probably because the project we worked on was something personally important to me. It's the "cause" mode for an INFP. When empathizing, a person can be a "cause", and then I might show some glimmer of real feeling.

    And frankly, I hate being control, though I have some bizarre urge to handle things if no one else will.
    I do this also. I don't volunteer leadership unless no one else is stepping up. Then I get annoyed because I probably have a gazillion ideas and can't fathom why no one else does. I usually just throw out suggestions though, to get the ball rolling.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    On a tangent now.... IxFPs' feeling can seem "invisible" to many; even our emotions can go under the radar for awhile. I think it was Seymour who said we often appear aloof or "quiet but nice"; for myself, in situations with those I am not close to, I'd call it "harmlessly reserved", which people project niceness or aloofness onto, depending on what they are inclined to think already. This is because our Feeling is largely kept inside.

    I can't even remember what all I've posted in here now, but there can be two modes to pure Fi: Fi that cares & Fi that doesn't care. If I seem passive, it's because I don't care, and 90% of the time I don't care about what other people seem to find important. It's definitely NOT a lack of spine or ability to be assertive when necessary - it's failure to identify the issue as significant. I worked with an ESTP who would call me "aggressive". This is probably because the project we worked on was something personally important to me. It's the "cause" mode for an INFP. When empathizing, a person can be a "cause", and then I might show some glimmer of real feeling.



    I do this also. I don't volunteer leadership unless no one else is stepping up. Then I get annoyed because I probably have a gazillion ideas and can't fathom why no one else does. I usually just throw out suggestions though, to get the ball rolling.
    Hmm. Maybe I could be INFP? I show a lot of my personality in writing. What you see on-line is a compilation of WHO I AM. I'm a writer. I was a Lit major.

  4. #594
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    It's not denying, it's choosing not to share with another [I may very well have a deep acknowledgement of my emotions, but, I might not show that externally, for whatever reason - I don't have an obligation to share its depth with anyone; my only obligation is to myself].
    The thing is..well, and here I'm going to be arrogant. You may not choose to share it, much like you'd put on a headset when listening to music, but I can still hear the music, so you *are* sharing it, whether you want to or not. And meanwhile I'm forced to listen to a style of music I don't really appreciate, and if I ask you to turn it down, you go 'What music?' and keep on listening. It's annoying



    Sometimes I don't even know how to describe how I feel - that is honestly me - I'm still processing. And as my preference for Ne goes, with a trusted few, I like to put it out there to those people - for my own deeper understanding of my emotions.
    I understand that. And once again, you have that right. And nobody's demanding that you figure it out pronto or reveal all to them. I'm just giving you the option to talk to me. If you rather not, that's ok too. But I'd rather you didn't deny it's not there. Coz that makes me doubt myself and wonder where that feeling is coming from (is it coming from me, what caused etc?) and just pisses me off when I finally have to conclude you're lying to me.

    Just tell me it's you, so I can accomodate and make it 'not important background noise' in stead of making me waste energy to fix something that's not even my frigging mess and that I'm not able to fix since you won't let me.

    Once again, I have no problem with your right to privacy and your right to mull things over. I'm just asking you to understand how this can be very frustrating and make me feel drained, tired and helpless, since I cannot ignore it (unless you tell me it's ok) and I cannot turn it off (since you won't let me). It's literally like sitting next to a fire alarm going off and not knowing *why* or if someone is already checking it out and if I should be aware of any smoke coming my way and being potentially hazardous. At least tell me it's just a fire-drill, or whatever.

    All my F-dom/aux people get frustrated when I respond with, "I don't know" [to: how do you feel?] but it seems to personally aggravate my Fi-peeps more than my Fe-peeps. Fe-peeps see it as my being confused (nicely stated) or naive (not so nicely stated) [they can detach from it], Fi-peeps see it as my not acknowledging "what I already know" [they need their system validated].
    It's more that, since it's our main perspective, it's hard to imagine someone *not* knowing what they feel when they're blurting it out so loudly to the rest of the world. It takes a while to have the patience to realize not everyone knows what they feel instantly. And..it's even harder to surpress the urge of going digging with you to figure it out (which I know can be traumatic especially to ENTPs) as we see it as a vital to you figuring it out and stop feeling that way (especially if it's a nasty emotion). Kinda like cleaning out a wound.

    I've learned though that it's better to ask if I can dig for them or if there's anything that would help them self-reflect better, or if they'd like me to leave things be. If the latter, I'm likely to block your emotions or go away, since then I don't have to deal with it. Though I'll check up on you again later, especially if I care about you.

    And if you guys can mirror emotions of another that much, how do you reassure others that their emotional states (say, negative) is not responsible for yours [likely adding to their emotional distress because they see that it had a ripple effect on you as well]? I.e., they are free to feel without wondering how it will affect/be mirrored by you? How do you make the focus about THEM and keep yourself out of it? Can you?
    It takes practice. When I was younger I automatically mirrorred without knowing it. And, added my own stress that those emotions had caused as well into the mix. So yeah...that's pretty lethal. And no fair, or fun, but it's not something I had control over. Even more fun was that the other person responded to the hurt and you'd have a vicious cycle of pain.

    After a while though you learn with focus and intent how to handle which emotions. If you're hurt and in pain, I will sympathize, but won't transfer the hurt it makes me feel to you. I'll transfer the soothing and the me wishing I could take away your pain-feeling. The comforting.

    If you give me the faintest of smiles after that, I'll take that smile and magnify it a thousand times to mirror back at you in the hope of inspiring you to follow that feeling.

    So you take the raw matter you get, and transform it into what you need to accomodate the situation. So yeah..you can dump all your pain on me..I don't mind, at all

    One caveat: If I'm tired, or already overloaded emotionally myself, I cannot do that. I don't have the energy for manipulating emotions inside of me and I either become a big black hole of apathy or go supernova on people in mirroring *everything*. Stay away from me. Give me space (unless you know how to cancel out negative emotions yourself). I promise I'll be there for you later on.

    One more thing: when you don't tell me something is wrong with you and it's..nothing big, chances are your foul mood will rub off on me without me knowing coz I'm busy elsewhere. That..I hate. Coz I have no idea where that foul mood came from. And..that makes me mirror that mood at *everyone* that crosses my path, which causes them to get their feathers ruffled and send me their negative energy. I hate that. That's what I call polluting, it's a messy clean up and its draining. My mind is focused elsewhere, so I don't realize I'm to transform that energy. Unless it reaches a certain level where it is enough to break my focus on that other thing.

    I may not know what to do with said emotions (cuz I haven't truly processed it yet) - so what you're asking of me are things that may come easily for you, but those that have a lot of confusion or hindrance to easily accessing Fi-cognitive processes, it's asking for too much clarity, too soon. When the reason I'm seeking you out, in the first place, is because it's muddy as hell.

    I don't know whether I even want it to be fixed, I don't know whether I wanna continue to feel that way. I don't know.....yet. All I know is I want some clarification regarding it, either way. If I already knew what to do with it, I wouldn't need to consult anyone.
    I'm aware of that. And that is your good right. Those things aren't easy, and you should have the time to sort things out.

    But plz..plz tell me this. Make me aware
    That makes me focus on it, and accomodate it. Even if I'm not allowed to help out, at least let me keep myself from loading more negativity on you through accidental mirroring, as I can deliberately tune that emotion out, much like you would with background noise, when I focus on it. This in turn, leaves me blind though, so I don't like doing it. If, after that, you want me to help, you'll have to tap me on the shoulder, as my sensitivity will be significantly reduced (much like when wearing headsets)

    Hmm, you wrote "without permission" before the edit, and I wanted to ask what you meant by that (permission), because I didn't understand how one needs to ask permission to pollute.

    What, also, do you mean by pollute....when does a person sharing their emotions with you shift from revealing to polluting?

    I can see how my not being honest with my emotions can be polluting though. It's the double-edged sword of Fi. It wants so badly that it may scare away [make them shut down] those who are not naturally versed in it, to even attempt to try.
    I agree..it's like having a College professor teach a bunch of 12 year olds how to pursue a PhD in Chemistry (this is not meant to be offensive or condescending, for the record, as the same goes for us with your preferred functions).

    I wrote without permission as a tongue in cheek thing, but decided to change it as I didn't wanna risk offense.

    Actually the shift occurs from polluting to revealing. Much like with music, if you're listening to 20 different kinds of songs, it becomes a chaos that's hard on the ears..it becomes noise polution. However, single out one tune, and put on a head-set to listen to that one tune...and it's beautiful. The song *revealed* is a marvel in its own right. See my point?

    Same goes for when I'm to study and there's a really loud TV in the background. It breaks your focus and concentration...even pissesoff, while if you were the one in front of the TV, giving the Tv your full attention, you probably would enjoy the show that's on
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  5. #595
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Just thought this was interesting.. Can we ever to get the bottom of anything? I mean, I identify with some of the things written in this link about Fe, but then I hear here that Fi is more open. Then I hear Fe is. Then I hear Fe isn't. Then I hear Fi types don't want to express anything and that they're values are enigmatic. Then I hear Fe shuts people out. Then... Meh. It's too much for to get a good picture of.

    INFJ or INFP? -Self Disclosure

  6. #596
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I also think this thread needs ENFJs.

    I mean, the I and E thing definitely takes part in this. I think ENFPs are way more open with their Fi than INFPs are and that INFPs are way more selective, despite it being somewhat the same process (that INFPs seem to have worked out even more than us). I think the same will be true for ENFJs and INFJs. I personally find it easier to connect with ENFJs as they're more open to connections, even if they use a different system.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  7. #597
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Just thought this was interesting.. Can we ever to get the bottom of anything? I mean, I identify with some of the things written in this link about Fe, but then I hear here that Fi is more open. Then I hear Fe is. Then I hear Fe isn't. Then I hear Fi types don't want to express anything and that they're values are enigmatic. Then I hear Fe shuts people out. Then... Meh. It's too much for to get a good picture of.

    INFJ or INFP? -Self Disclosure
    Well, you have to decide how you usually operate in life without the judgment of whether one is more open (and hence better) than another. Obviously each will be biased to their own way of operation and in the heat of the moment, tend to perceive the other as presumptuous or hard to reach, or whatever. Don't attach a negative value to one or the other right off the bat. They're just preferences.
    Something Witty

  8. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Just thought this was interesting.. Can we ever to get the bottom of anything? I mean, I identify with some of the things written in this link about Fe, but then I hear here that Fi is more open. Then I hear Fe is. Then I hear Fe isn't. Then I hear Fi types don't want to express anything and that they're values are enigmatic. Then I hear Fe shuts people out. Then... Meh. It's too much for to get a good picture of.

    INFJ or INFP? -Self Disclosure
    OH so now I AM an INFJ since I talk about myself.

    I think I need to take a break from this for a while. lollercaust.

  9. #599
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Well, you have to decide how you usually operate in life without the judgment of whether one is more open (and hence better) than another. Obviously each will be biased to their own way of operation and in the heat of the moment, tend to perceive the other as presumptuous or hard to reach, or whatever. Don't attach a negative value to one or the other right off the bat. They're just preferences.
    I don't think one is better.. But I think one is better for me (or rather, more accurate). I'm just a little frustrated because I can't pin down what means what anymore. However, my basic impression would lead me say that it seems like there's an intrinsic element in the definition of Fe that's a little more interactive or environmental. But again, I could be wrong..who knows. I need to take a break for awhile too.

  10. #600
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Exclamation Fe/Fi kvetching vs. reflecting: Yep. The antics have indeed ensued.

    This will be the 600th post on this thread. That’s 600 posts in under 10 days. In my time on this forum, I’ve never seen any thread grow so quickly. Strong evidence indeed that this Fe/Fi conversation is long overdue.

    However, as the originator of this thread, it falls upon me to remind everyone that the originally stated purpose of this discussion, and its suggested format, were very carefully structured to promote thoughtful discussion and deter kvetching about [insert your least favorite F function here].

    Perhaps if I share a little background about why I suggested a three-question format in the OP, this will continue to foster a productive discourse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post

    Format. I anticipate a heated discussion with lots of, “This is why I hate (Fe/Fi)” comments. By conforming your comments to the below format, hopefully a more thoughtful discussion of the facts will ensue.
    1. When [Fe/Fi] Went Awry: Explain situation you personally experienced when Fe or Fi caused problems. It can be your F function, or someone else’s.
    2. Why Did [Fe/Fi] Do That?: What was [Fe/Fi]’s justification for doing what it did?
    3. How Were Others Inconvenienced? : How did this display of [Fe/Fi] affect the other parties involved? It’s easy to explain why we felt motivated to use our Fe/Fi in a certain way. It’s much more difficult to articulate how your actions inconvenienced others.
    4. Comments: Any additional comments you might have go here.
    My inspiration for this format came from my personal study of Naikan meditation. Naikan reflection was developed by Yoshimoto Ishin (1916-1988) who added three questions to his mishirabe meditation practice.

    • What have I received from __________ ?
    • What have I given to __________ ?
    • What troubles and difficulties have I caused __________ ?

    Note that a related fourth question, "What troubles and difficulties has __________ caused me?”, is purposely ignored. We’re all good at answering this question, but in Naikan, focusing too much of our time on asking and answering this question is at the center of a lot of human misery.

    Yoshimoto believed that by shifting the focus of our self reflection from things we are certain about (like “this is how Fe/Fi bugs me”) to the troubles and difficulties we have caused (such as “this his how my Fe/Fi has run amuck”), we arrive at a perspective on our lives that sees beyond the usual blind spots that we all have regarding how we have been the source of others’ suffering. Until we have such a holistic perspective, says Yoshimoto, we cannot truly know ourselves or the grace by which we live.

    (And, if my personal experiences means anything to those reading this post, let me just say that Naikan meditation was a real life changer for me. After getting through feeling like a schmuck for all the pain I’d inflicted on other people (intentionally or not), I then arrived at a place where I just felt grateful for all the kindnesses others had bestowed upon me. The resulting sense of gratitude and humility has been wonderful.)

    So, let me gently suggest that you might find it a powerful experience to reflect on how your own Fe/Fi has caused others' pain. Because it has. Whether you realize it or not.

    I think sharing our own stories in a kind and supportive environment can be a very powerful learning tool. And, given the popularity of this thread, it looks like a lot of people want to understand Fe and Fi, and the conflict that sometimes comes between them, better.

    It’d be really great if more of you (especially the Fe users who have been largely silent on this front) shared your experiences of your Fe/Fi gone awry. And, for the readers of said posts, let me humbly remind you that but for the grace of God go you. So rather than using other people’s stories of Fe/Fi going awry as a launching point for your own grousing, perhaps you can choose to use it as an opportunity for your own self-reflection.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

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