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  1. #51
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    In PB's case (and I admit I don't know the details, nor am I saying that for sure the desired outcome would have happened if she had done things the Fe way), despite her publically dealing with what was ethically wrong and making sure everyone was aware of how wrong it was, the end result was:

    1) She was not present to continue making a difference
    2) The workroom was still unsafe for other employees
    3) That situation was unlikely to change.

    By using a little strategy and doing it privately, she may have been able to help the employer understand why this is such a big deal, how it could personally affect him and offer him an option that would allow him to still look good in front of his employees AND provide them with a safe work environment.

    I'd be the first to say that she was treated very unfairly and that the employee was being unethical. I don't think she did something wrong. I do think that by paying more attention to the delivery of the message though, the chances might have been higher that change may have occurred.

  2. #52
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    In PB's case (and I admit I don't know the details, nor am I saying that for sure the desired outcome would have happened if she had done things the Fe way), despite her publically dealing with what was ethically wrong and making sure everyone was aware of how wrong it was, the end result was:

    1) She was not present to continue making a difference
    2) The workroom was still unsafe for other employees
    3) That situation was unlikely to change.

    By using a little strategy and doing it privately, she may have been able to help the employer understand why this is such a big deal, how it could personally affect him and offer him an option that would allow him to still look good in front of his employees AND provide them with a safe work environment.

    I'd be the first to say that she was treated very unfairly and that the employee was being unethical. I don't think she did something wrong. I do think that by paying more attention to the delivery of the message though, the chances might have been higher that change may have occurred.
    None of those things are her obligation. Her only obligation was to report the incident, which she did, at great cost to herself. Her employer's (ethical and LEGAL) obligation is to provide a safe environment for their employees. Which they clearly failed to do. It's open and shut to me. I don't see why PB needs to go massage someone else's ego - she is the injured party and to do so would violate Fi's sense of integrity. (That's what you guys don't seem to appreciate.) In any event, the fact that they acted unethically and illegally suggests that no approach, other than a deceitful one, perhaps, would have worked. They were not open to reason.

    In the end, it doesn't matter what the outcome is - she did the right thing. If everyone at the firm had supported her and also done the right thing, the employer would have been forced to make concessions (Trade Unions are so Fi!) But they were too cowardly and short-sighted to make a stand. So why should she care what happens to them now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #53
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Why should she care? Because it is still putting her coworkers at danger, which is why she spoke up in the first place. If she cares about them, I don't understand why it's a bad thing to try for the most productive outcome. The fact that there was no union for her to go to makes it even more imperative to try to figure out a way to effect change behind the scenes.

    Of course, this is just my Fe reasoning. I'd just like to better understand the Fi way of seeing it. I'm not criticizing her. I just don't understand why Fi has kind of a "screw them anyway" kind of perspective. If it's a value that made them stand up in the first place, why not look at the best way of effecting change in the end.

  4. #54
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Yes. This annoys me. The presumption is that, since the group rejected you, you must have been at fault. I see this with Fe users all the time. It's so narrow-minded. It's the essence of mob mentality. It's quite clear to me that you did the right thing, and, actually, the way you expressed yourself really shouldn't have made a difference - unless you were completely disrespectful and offensive, and even then, the PRINCIPLE is what counts. Is the situation dangerous or not? Do we need to take action to avoid a health and safety issue or not? The principle is true no matter the mode of expression. Why do Fe users struggle with this? It's seems so superficial to me to get bogged down with the details of delivery and miss the message. I give you the benefit of the doubt because I know that boat-rockers are very often motivated by integrity and honour and that commercial organisations most often are not. But fidelia gives you a lecture about what you (probably) did wrong. After you got fired! This is what pisses me off most about Fe. It's so holier-than-thou and at the same time seems to have no sense of integrity. Just baffling.
    It is a constant source of frustration. Particulary when the message is discounted, because of the delivery and then all of sudden all of your opinions are disregarded.
    I find it a constant battle in an industry that is suppose to have patient care as one of it's priorities, but in the end it's all about the bottom line, often with callous disregard for quality.
    I have been f#@%ed over many a time for reminding people of those supposed values.
    And people wonder why some of the best and brightest get jaded, and bail.


    I'm not intending on jumping on the anti-Fe bandwagon...I actually up until this point never reliesed how deficent I am in Fe...and this theard has brought into sharp relief, just how lacking I am in that social currency. At the same time, it makes me wonder how things ever change for the better, if people continually clamp down on the lone voices that say "hang on, this isn't right."

    I pride myself for being an independent thinker, but I have never really considered that in other peoples eyes that's actually a mighty big failing. Integrity and a strict work ethic are my big things. It's never really occured to me to do things differently.

    Some one once described me as the little mouse who turns into a lion. It always kinda tickled me pink (it was meant as compliment), but now I'm not so sure.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #55
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Why should she care? Because it is still putting her coworkers at danger, which is why she spoke up in the first place. If she cares about them, I don't understand why it's a bad thing to try for the most productive outcome.
    Her coworkers have been alerted to the danger. Short of paying for the improvements herself, she can do no more. That's another difference. Fi lets people decide for themselves. Fe tries to nanny them into what it thinks is best and accepts no dissenters. Which, bearing in mind we are dealing with subjective evaluations, is absurd. It will also use manipulation to achieve the desired end with a means-justifies-ends rationalization, which one can only do when one believes one has absolute moral authority (always a delusion).

    The difference is between valuing internal harmony (with ideals) and external harmony. External harmony is expedient in most situations, but that doesn't make it ethical. The potential for it to be unethical is far greater, and that's why Fi users mistrust it. It's just as desirable for us that everyone gets along - it's just not the most important thing. Not even close.
    Jesus was all Fi, btw. Look at his dialogue with Pilate - would you lecture him about how to appease the authorities and spare his life?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #56
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    It is a constant source of frustration. Particulary when the message is discounted, because of the delivery and then all of sudden all of your opinions are disregarded.
    I find it a constant battle in an industry that is suppose to have patient care as one of it's priorities, but in the end it's all about the bottom line, often with callous disregard for quality.
    I have been f#@%ed over many a time for reminding people of those supposed values.
    And people wonder why some of the best and brightest get jaded, and bail.


    I'm not intending on jumping on the anti-Fe bandwagon...I actually up until this point never reliesed how deficent I am in Fe...and this theard has brought into sharp relief, just how lacking I am in that social currency. At the same time, it makes me wonder how things ever change for the better, if people continually clamp down on the lone voices that say "hang on, this isn't right."

    I pride myself for being an independent thinker, but I have never really considered that in other peoples eyes that's actually a mighty big failing. Integrity and a strict work ethic are my big things. It's never really occured to me to do things differently.

    Some one once described me as the little mouse who turns into a lion. It always kinda tickled me pink (it was meant as compliment), but now I'm not so sure.


    I'm an independent thinker as well. I'm just better off doing that alone probably.

    My impression is that Fi-doms, while being independent, tend to keep to themselves for the most part too.. One of the things that made me think I was Fe though is that I'm still expressive with/in front people, never reserved as much as I imagine Fi-dom to be (I could be wrong, but that's my conclusion). I don't become instantly "agreeable" though.. I try my best to incorporate my opinions with people, without negating anyone else too much. At times, I can't. The problem I'm noticing now with assertive Fi is that it needs to be individualistic full time - and won't even butter people up at that . They'll word things in only the way they prefer. It's unnecessary.

  7. #57
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Why should she care? Because it is still putting her coworkers at danger, which is why she spoke up in the first place. If she cares about them, I don't understand why it's a bad thing to try for the most productive outcome. The fact that there was no union for her to go to makes it even more imperative to try to figure out a way to effect change behind the scenes.

    Of course, this is just my Fe reasoning. I'd just like to better understand the Fi way of seeing it. I'm not criticizing her. I just don't understand why Fi has kind of a "screw them anyway" kind of perspective. If it's a value that made them stand up in the first place, why not look at the best way of effecting change in the end.
    It's not that. It's kinda if I don't speak up now, it will all get swept under the carpet. My own experiences are if I don't shout out (not literally), people don't even reliese there's even an issue, and every thing I say behind closed doors is discounted, and I am suppressed. Some times it's the only time I get heard.
    After a lifetime of never being listened too, or even ideas stolen, I've assessed this is the fastest way to get heard. Positive or Negative consequences be damned, at least some one will take notice and then things will begin to change.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #58
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    When Fi Went Awry: Backstory- This guy treats women like they are objects. He's basically molested a few people at the workplace, and seems to intrusively flirt with every girl who works there. And no one does anything about it's he's the manager's son. Every time I see him do something like that I just have to clench my fists and shake my head to hope I don't do something... but that didn't quite work at one point.

    He's even worse outside of the work place; with the flirting and molesting. Because he can't get fired. He ran his hand up a friend's thigh, and no one did anything about it. And so I've had that in mind whenever I see him. Said friend nearly broke her leg at a party and he was there, drunk off his ass, annoying her and being a prick. She saw him at a local event, and he brought it up to me- "So I saw someone I think is a mutual friend of ours." (he's being careful because I'm pretty sure he understands how I feel about him). And I said "yeah, the one you downright molested, and who you annoyed at a party a few nights ago when she almost broke her leg and you were drunk off your ass. Yeah I know the friend you're talking about. *glare*"

    Then he just kind of looked at me in a shocked way. Kind of funny, ever since then I haven't been on the schedule with him; and he hasn't spoken to me since. Good riddance, I don't want to get fired over beating him up.

    Why Did Fi Do That?: Why? Because I wanted him to understand what he puts people through. How he's totally selfish and a complete moron. He needs to grow the fuck up. He's just living in a fantasy world right now basically; wherein he can do whatever the hell he wants.

    Also I had some anger building up; and I didn't want to do anything really rash. So I just had to express it in that way; had to take some action, make an impact. I try to refrain from physical violence, but sometimes it just really doesn't work. So this is my attempt at suppressing those emotions. Yay for Se.

    And, the outcome? He was just kind of shocked, and one of my coworkers did an "OH SNAP" and started laughing. Wasn't much of an outcome, except he's been avoiding me.

    What was Fi’s justification for doing what it did? The justification? Again, he's a terrible person who molests and violates women (both verbally and physically). He's an idiot... ugh. Could go on and on.

    How Were Others Inconvenienced? : He sure wasn't feeling that great for the rest of the day, otherwise no one else was really affected. I don't really care though, I'm glad he didn't feel very good.

    Comments: I can see how this would get me in trouble. But meh. I would rather be who I am to the fullest extent, so long as I don't get a criminal record.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  9. #59
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    [QUOTE=PeaceBaby;1334219]^ An Fe aux tends to retreat to process. They have more difficulty thinking about emotions on the fly. That is why when I consider confrontation I hesitate. I know they will just close the circle around themselves closer and closer. And generally I like these people. I don't want them to pull further away so I give them space and wait for other opportunities where we could discuss issues.

    QUOTE]

    From Tiltyred Quote: I lack that sense of urgency. I wouldn't pursue it either. Because I believe that all things reveal themselves over time, and I don't care if it takes years, as it sometimes has. I'm content to hang back and observe over long periods of time. I think sometimes behaviors have deeper roots than you can see from just one or two incidents, so I'm not prepared to speak on them until I've had a chance to try to figure out where they're coming from.

    This is what I do as well. I can think of a couple of instances where asking more questions or confronting my friend would have resulted in my friend either shutting down or both of us saying something that would close off further understanding. Something can be said in a moment of frustration or anger that would be difficult to forget or take back (and it may not be truthful, just self protection). Whether I say something to a friend or not in a potentially contentious situation is entirely intuitive. But my first impulse is to stay quiet and wait for another opportunity to talk. I wait for the storm to blow over. I think there is a time for confrontation; ideally for me that would be calming explaining my feelings or asking questions and then really listening. I avoid confrontation as the other person will only run for cover. In that case, there is no potential for understanding, the real issues aren't discussed, and it feels like a waste of energy.

  10. #60
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'm an independent thinker as well. I'm just better off doing that alone probably.

    My impression is that Fi-doms, while being independent, tend to keep to themselves for the most part too.. One of the things that made me think I was Fe though is that I'm still expressive with/in front people, never reserved as much as I imagine Fi-dom to be (I could be wrong, but that's my conclusion). I don't become instantly "agreeable" though.. I try my best to incorporate my opinions with people, without negating anyone else too much. At times, I can't. The problem I'm noticing now with assertive Fi is that it needs to be individualistic full time - and won't even butter people up at that . They'll word things in only the way they prefer. It's unnecessary.
    Yeah, guilty as charged. I try not not to negate others opinions (Unless you are just wrong, LOL, just j/k), but yes, I'm always reserved until I decide upon action, which can happen at the flick of a switch seemingly on the outside, but inside my thought processes, there has been quite a massive cascade effect. I refuse to brown nose though (I do it badly any how), and I chose my words carefully, each weighted in my mind to wring maxium meaning out of what I'm about to say. Unfortuantly it's wasted most of the time. Occasionally some one gets it. It's just how we work. If we speak, you better listen, because it's important when we take the time to vocalise our thoughts. Even though we seem we are delivering it bluntly, there tends to be a lot subtle meaning as well.
    BTW, assertive Fi doesn't need to be individualistic...it just is, by it's very nature, you can't alter that.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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