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  1. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Sigh.. It just sounds like some people have limits that are extreme. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. It's one thing to not be totally open like an ESFP, but to promote this shelled up behavior is literally painful to hear about. It does no good for anyone but yourselves. I see nothing ideal about it. I see nothing that you're improving about the world by snubbing people. I mentioned in another thread that even Jesus himself had some pretty bad disciples (until they learned).. He kept an open mind. He had Fe. Even Martin Luther King could detect the good in others, and even invited some Chicago gang members to work with him.. the list goes on with open minded INFJs, who reached out, who mobilized people, and inspired them. Not this.
    I've seen this referred to as "Ni dom paranoia" ...and apparently INTJs can have it too...Ni/Fi is a paranoid loop, and I suppose Ni/Ti is excessively cautious...in fact, it hilariously almost seems to mimic Si...which is probably where some people jump to the conclusion that certain INFJs are really ISFJs.

    Okay, maybe it's not that hilarious.

    EDIT: That was not a personal attack on you, Fidelia. I didn't even notice who in particular he was speaking to until I responded to the post - but yes - the generalized behavior of being excessively cautious or closed off to others is what I was addressing.

  2. #582
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    It takes longer for me to process these posts than it does for forum members to make 100 more.
    I know! I'm presently trying to decide whether or not I should scrap the response I started to Peacebaby about, oh, 300 posts ago?
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  3. #583
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    well, it's not a nice sentiment, really... i was just trying to be straightforward. at the same time, i can't see how Fe users can claim that Fi users should be more responsible for their external behavior, when you're voicing that you don't want to be responsible for what you're putting into the atmosphere either.
    That's not what I was saying/meaning. What I meant was that just because I put something out there to a person, doesn't mean they should automatically assume that I'm wanting or expecting them to be responsible for navigating its state of being. I.e., making it their own cross to bear, too, in some ways.

    i understand that you may not pay attention to emotional cues from others,
    Not true. I'm very perceptive about emotional cues from others, and I think it's because of a combination of NeTiFe. Not Fi.

    It was one of my greatest assests when working with individuals with autism, esp. those who had severe barriers to language. Communicating beyond a mutual understanding of spoken language.

    I just don't get upset by another's emotional distress, i.e., internalize it or mirror it [unless some living thing is suffering from pain that resonates with me and/or their effort/will to survive becomes all for naught.]

    I have let a few tears drop when there was this one tiny plant that was overshadowed by all the bigger shrubbery around it, and over days, it had almost bent itself to be nearly touching the ground, to bend towards sufficient sunlight. Only to see a few days later, the kids playing around there, and one carelessly pulling that plant from its roots, in one great pull, only to then grow bored of finishing that task, and thus, fling that plant away. The fact that its natural instinct was to survive, and for it to be so carelessly ended - . Just to give you an example of how obscure I can go with such things.


    well, and we don't actually mind being vented at either. i really don't need anyone to manage my feelings for me... i can handle really strong feelings no problem. it's not the feeling itself that gets me... it is not the emotion, it's the discrepancy. i can handle someone yelling, crying, throwing things. no problem. but when they're talking curtly to me and giving me cold looks and yet saying "there's no emotion going on here," that is just as unfair as me intending well but accidentally hurting you through my actions.
    Ah! The bolded, that makes it clearer.

    i understand that feeling, and i actually hesitate in the same way with my own mom, and she's ESFJ. she'll feel so bad about things i tell her sometimes, because she knows i was hurting. i don't think it's likely for an F in general to hear about pain and then not respond with their own pain on some level.
    True, I can see it as an F-thing, rather than a particular Fi-thing.

    but how can you say "i want my emotions to only be about me" but then also say "i want to communicate my emotions (but still keep them only about me)"? communication is sharing. two people. you can't keep it all about you if you're sharing... it sounds like all you're really asking is for the other person not to respond to them in an emotional way.
    BINGO!

    though i'm not trying to say you shouldn't be able to tell someone that you had a bad experience without them getting bent out of shape. i totally agree with that. what i'm trying to say is that my response to that necessarily involves feeling the bad feelings, because then i can see from that standpoint too. it might sound selfish, but, at the risk of sounding big-headed, i think it's fairly altruistic to offer to wade through pain to try as best as i can to see a situation through someone else's eyes. trust me, i'm not doing that purely for myself.
    As an ideal, it sounds nice, but, what I was aiming to get at, as per the intent of this thread - Fe/Fi gone awry - that this way can allow for an emotional vampire to be born. Needing hits of emotions from others, to know you've affected someone emotionally, to be affected by someone emotionally - as some twisted way of getting off on such an emotional charge.

    These certain people often SEEK OUT the "misunderstood", the "underdog", or at the worst, push someone to the fringes so that they BECOME misunderstood, and convince others and themselves that they're doing it to "help", to provide some sage guidance - when they're just really wanting to find a victim so they can play the hero/champion/wise saviour. Or simply to walk away with an emotional hit.

    And, that's where I'm saying, don't use me and my emotional state to make it about you and your need to get the next "emotional fix". (you, ofc, not meaning you personally)

  4. #584
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I've seen this referred to as "Ni dom paranoia" ...and apparently INTJs can have it too...Ni/Fi is a paranoid loop, and I suppose Ni/Ti is excessively cautious...in fact, it hilariously almost seems to mimic Si...which is probably where some people jump to the conclusion that certain INFJs are really ISFJs.

    Okay, maybe it's not that hilarious.
    To be fair, I've had my fair share of it.. the only way out of it is getting a little more Se in one's life..witholding judgement just a tiny bit more. If someone wants to protect themselves, use Fe. It helps disarm and can be creative, not just defensive. Like Gandhi said: Be the good you want to see in the world. Not the other way around. You don't have worry about everyone else all of the time, if you can do this.

    Yeah, I think the same paranoia can apply to some ISPs too. It might be that I'm one of them.. I dunno. It's kind of funny that I'm preaching Se now :P

  5. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    To be fair, I've had my fair share of it.. the only way out of it is getting a little more Se in one's life..witholding judgement just a tiny bit more. If someone wants to protect themselves, use Fe. It helps disarm and can be creative, not just defensive.

    Yeah, I think the same paranoia can apply to some ISPs too.
    Well, yeah, in all fairness we ALL have flaws. Ni dom paranoia is just something INxJs are prone to, just as ENFPs are apparently prone to be reactive or emo.

  6. #586
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Kdude, I think maybe you and I are thinking of different kinds of things. If I'm torn up over the death of a loved one, I probably am not going to sob on a strangers shoulder and tell them about all of my regrets.

    Like everyone else though, I've had very nice chance times with other people: going picnicking in Montreal with some guy I met who worked in the record store, busking on the street and meeting interesting people who made for a memorable or fun or funny day. Buying a toiletries for a street kid and then driving all over town together trying to figure out how to get him a social security number so he could work and then going swimming out back of a hippy co-op. I'm not talking about stuff like that.

    Just if I invest heavily emotionally, I want to know that the person is going to be there down the road and is just as invested as me. Is that so wrong?

  7. #587
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm starting to think this Fi/Fe convo is a load of bunk. No offense people, but the overlaps in stereotypes are started to get kind of amusing.
    Yes, when Qre was describing her Fi mother and how she had to coddle and protect her, I could only think of my only pathetically ISFJ mother who has literally no semblance of Fi and is all Fe... and she's exactly the same way, she cannot handle conflict or negative discussion. The reason we are not close at all is because when I was growing up there was so much she could not handle that I learned to just never say anything negative (or much at all, actually).

    A lot of the stuff being bandied about as Fe/Fi in this thread just ain't.

    ... I do agree, though, with PB regardless that I've learned some things here overall that will prove useful to me.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #588
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, when Qre was describing her Fi mother and how she had to coddle and protect her, I could only think of my only pathetically ISFJ mother who has literally no semblance of Fi and is all Fe... and she's exactly the same way, she cannot handle conflict or negative discussion. The reason we are not close at all is because when I was growing up there was so much she could not handle that I learned to just never say anything negative (or much at all, actually).
    Two things - just because the same behaviours are manifested in an Fi-dom as in an Fe-aux, does not mean that we cannot understand the difference between Fi or Fe through that.

    For example, I'd guess why the Fi-dom may avoid such conflict would be a different process of thought than why an Fe-dom/aux might. Add to that, how well-adjusted they are as an idividual, ofc.

    Secondly, although I know you're speaking of your own mother, but, as you said she's exactly the same way as mine, and then spoke negatively of your own mom, made me feel that you were speaking negatively of my mom as well.

    Although I see it as something that my mother needs to work on, I don't see her as pathetic for it.

    Some random guesses for why you see your mother's actions as pathetic may be because her "avoidance" probably exacerbated a lot of negative situations in your household, while growing up, and when you may have needed a parental figure to step up, and/or stand up on your behalf, you felt let down.

    This is not at all what happened with my mother. She will always rather opt to avoid a negative situation, but, not at the expense of resolving a situation. Ever. Esp. when it comes to the well-being of her child, she will be the first to fiercely start a battle out of "seeming" nothingness. She'd be the conflict-starter then. And, boy, will the fireworks fly.

    She has enough sense to see the bigger picture and to know when a problem/issue will boil into a bigger issue if not nipped at the bud, versus, where there's no real influence she has - however, just due to the emotional nature, the situation does (and will inevitably) influence her. E.g., hearing about a girl in our neighbourhood who was brutally murdered, and the most probable reasoning seems to be "honour killing". She will most def. rather not hear about such things.

    Her idealistic nature cannot stand by and let "suffering" continue, so, if she cannot do anything about it, yes, she'd rather stay ignorant to it.

    Situations where I am upset, and I withhold from my mother, are because I know that she is quite removed from the situation, and does not have any active part in the situation, and cannot really be of help in the resolution, so rather than upset her, I withhold.

    A lot of the stuff being bandied about as Fe/Fi in this thread just ain't.
    I haven't really followed this thread, read here and there, but I can agree with this.

    I think it's always the issue of discussing functions as some isolated thing, and using observations of behaviours to understand it. A behaviour is never, ever, due to an isolated function.

    I would have liked to discuss it as a cognitive process, rather than behaviours, but we inevitably fall into behavioural analysis.

  9. #589
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    That's not what I was saying/meaning. What I meant was that just because I put something out there to a person, doesn't mean they should automatically assume that I'm wanting or expecting them to be responsible for navigating its state of being. I.e., making it their own cross to bear, too, in some ways.

    Not true. I'm very perceptive about emotional cues from others, and I think it's because of a combination of NeTiFe. Not Fi.

    It was one of my greatest assests when working with individuals with autism, esp. those who had severe barriers to language. Communicating beyond a mutual understanding of spoken language.

    I just don't get upset by another's emotional distress, i.e., internalize it or mirror it [unless some living thing is suffering from pain that resonates with me and/or their effort/will to survive becomes all for naught.]

    ah, i see. i dunno if it was just my interpretation or if it was the wording - or both - but i didn't realize that this was more of a possible situation than a constant one. like, that it wasn't meant to apply to everyone with Fi dom/aux. and i do apologize for implying that you, personally, cannot read emotions. it was more of an impersonal "you", directed at non-Fis in general, but i didn't really make that clear.

    it's weird what happens to me with emotional distress. i don't necessarily need to understand what's happening on a cognitive level to mirror it. even in reading a thread, if the words are sounding frustrated, i start to feel a heat and itchiness inside (apparently emotional frustration is like an internal STD), and it becomes hard for me to keep reading. with sadness, i just feel like something is being pulled away from me, and i feel more lethargic. people keep saying that Fi people misread all the time, but i've never had a time in my life when someone has told me that i have mistakenly picked up on Feeling nuances. not that i'm perfect - i just don't think it's always all that common as this thread might lead one to believe.

    anyway, beyond emotion - i jump right to why. i don't think i get upset about things as much as move to that emotional place and then in that place i can look at why. i don't have a huge desire to provoke emotions, personally - at least, not bad ones - nor do i have a huge desire to placate them - at least, not the good ones. they're just kinda there, with me. what i'm working on currently is how to get out of negative emotions more quickly than i used to be able to. it's hard, but pleasing.

    I have let a few tears drop when there was this one tiny plant that was overshadowed by all the bigger shrubbery around it, and over days, it had almost bent itself to be nearly touching the ground, to bend towards sufficient sunlight. Only to see a few days later, the kids playing around there, and one carelessly pulling that plant from its roots, in one great pull, only to then grow bored of finishing that task, and thus, fling that plant away. The fact that its natural instinct was to survive, and for it to be so carelessly ended - . Just to give you an example of how obscure I can go with such things.
    aw :sad: i always get all emo over charlie brown christmas trees. they're little and scrawny already with hardly any branches to protect them from the cold and then all the big fluffy magnificent trees get chosen to go to warm lighted homes and the little scrawny ones are left behind to die in the dark and cold...

    wow okay. must. stop. the emo. okay so the little trees might return to the earth, but they are brought back as part of a new tree, and the wind, and the sea, and perhaps the particles that one made up that tree will make it into space and will someday become a star. hey, maybe we all have a little stardust in us.


    As an ideal, it sounds nice, but, what I was aiming to get at, as per the intent of this thread - Fe/Fi gone awry - that this way can allow for an emotional vampire to be born. Needing hits of emotions from others, to know you've affected someone emotionally, to be affected by someone emotionally - as some twisted way of getting off on such an emotional charge.

    These certain people often SEEK OUT the "misunderstood", the "underdog", or at the worst, push someone to the fringes so that they BECOME misunderstood, and convince others and themselves that they're doing it to "help", to provide some sage guidance - when they're just really wanting to find a victim so they can play the hero/champion/wise saviour. Or simply to walk away with an emotional hit.

    And, that's where I'm saying, don't use me and my emotional state to make it about you and your need to get the next "emotional fix". (you, ofc, not meaning you personally)

    i agree with you that emotional manipulation shouldn't be used to one's gain and others' detriment. i actually am fairly unfamiliar with the idea of an emotional "fix" myself - and given, i am not e4 - but, like i said, i don't actually even have a great fondness for my emotional states unless they're very positive ones. they just kinda happen, like images in your mind when you read a book. it's weird to think about it like cocaine or something, lol. this sounds a little like borderline/unstable emotional PD too.

    hah, and like i mentioned... i'm always pushing for why. i wonder it in this case too. what causes someone to need emotional "fixes"? or to play the hero? insecurity, i would think, in the second case. or, on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, total narcissism. i wonder if they don't make a sort of circle themselves, extreme insecurity turning into extreme narcissism. you think you're worth nothing, it doesn't matter what you do, so you become completely self-absorbed; you think you're better than everyone, you're worth everything, you start freaking out because everything you do means so much.

    perhaps the vampirism comes from inability to control your emotional states. Fi is a subjective function, and without any objective help, you might not be able to have any hold over your emotional states. if you couldn't come to peace with them, and kept fighting against them, you might discover you could "adopt" them from outside instead of being subject to them. i could see this happening more to Fi aux or tert, with particularly low usage of their T function, since they don't work as much with Fi as Fi doms do. and i certainly understand wanting to "adopt" positive emotional states or cause positive emotional states in others, but i can't imagine wanting to stay in or, god forbid, create negative emotions, because they drain me to such an extent. not that i don't with the whole Te hammer thing, but that's kind of a last resort. anyway, anyone else have ideas on this?


    the only other thing i do want to point out, is that sometimes i think people willing to work with really depressed or anxious people, or people on the fringes of society, are sometimes misunderstood for this kind of behavior. that it's more for themself than anyone else, and i think that's sad. or that this state of vampirism might manifest in their lives without their understanding or desire for it. sad too.

  10. #590
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    To your question - No, I don't think being worried about the other using the information to hurt me is what's on my mind. It really just boils down to the fact that my sharing and 'going vulnerable' means I'm on the road to wanting to invest in the relationship, and I believe the other is too. So if they'd then back away or walk off, I'd be hurt or embarassed (for having misread the situation) because they apparently then didn't view the nature of the relationship in the way I did.
    ahh. okay. i see. thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This is so, so much like me...the only time I come off as overbearing IRL, I think, is when I am under stress and in my shadow (aka NFP becomes foot-stomping baby STJ). But it's not my preferred, relaxed, or "normal" state. I thought was INFJ for a long long time, and sometimes tested INFP. I still do test as INFx more than any other type.
    lol! when i am on a rampage i am STJ central. or last minute studying. i kick last minute studying ASS.

    i always test INF too. at first i thought INFP but then when i was first learning about the functions i thought i was INFJ mostly because i am fairly clearly more N than F, and i have a few little latent J thought processes. but, complete lack of Ti. and later i realized i wasn't quite so hot on Ni or Fe either. i'm pretty happy with the ENFP label at this point, though. it's withstood self-questioning better than either INF type.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I mentioned in another thread that even Jesus himself had some pretty bad disciples (until they learned).. He kept an open mind. He had Fe.
    agree with you that it's good to keep an open mind and moderate practices, but typing someone who many people believe to be god?

    actually i take that back. typing deities sounds fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Well, yeah, in all fairness we ALL have flaws. Ni dom paranoia is just something INxJs are prone to, just as ENFPs are apparently prone to be reactive or emo.
    WHAT DO YOU MEAN REACTIVE AND EMO!?!? :steam::steam: am not

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Much of this sounds like Ne. You're making some random connection to the issue at hand and ascribing value to it based on that unrelated issue. Instead of relating things to something else external, Fi-doms may relate it to their inner ideal, so the reason for putting off a decision involves more of being able to reach that ideal or not - that's what authenticity is implying, staying true to the inner image of the ideal.
    ah, that's a really good interpretation of it. it does sound really wound up in Ne. possibly being Ne heavy... i don't see the things being unconnected at all. my problem is i see as more connected than they are. interesting about the Fi ideal, i think i do that every once in a while too but this Ne thing much, much more. it's driven me to tears. i wonder how i counteract it... Te, probably. or Se. maybe just anything other than Ne, lol. thanks for the help.

    I notice a lot in this thread people attributing too much to Fe/Fi, which are just one function that makes up an entire mindset. I especially notice that when Fe/Fe is in the aux position, the Fi/Fe user will confuse it with their perception in a way, because Fe/Fi is supporting their perception.
    yeah, good point. i think they're hard to unravel sometimes.

    Again, this is because you are Pe-dom and Fi is supporting your Ne. When I say Fi does not seek to be affected nor to affect, I mean it in a pure form. The further it gets from the dominant function, the less it looks like this pure form. In the aux function, it seems to motivate ENFPs to explore an ideal in reality, which can lead to them seeking to motivate others to explore their ideals. Fi-doms appear much more passive or indirect in this respect. It tends to be so subtle it is almost undetectable, or IS undetectable, especially to Fe.
    huh. hence you guys being generally more okay with hanging out with a person in a difficult emotional state that they're in - helping them heal, while i prefer motivating... which i suppose is really healing too, in the sense of strengthening, but in any case i see the difference. yes, and in some ways that motivation is very driven by Ne because i can't be everything on my own, so at least i can help others be it. i can't be a field of wildflowers myself, but i can help others bloom, so to speak. both for their own joy and for the sheer beauty of it.

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