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  1. #511
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This rewinds well to my metaphor on the journey.

    When I offer to take someone's hand, it's to go on this journey together, with that person, and establish deeper and deeper rapport.

    I felt like Jen was ready, that we could do that. I hope to get closer to that point with fidelia. I am putting these thoughts in the public venue because I am hoping to fully explain my goals in this thread.

    It's to get past all of the group expectations and form a personal bond that in and of itself would help someone understand the nuances of Fi-ness. Then, in knowing and trusting me, see those patterns reverberate out in real life to see better and better what Fi is. After all, I am only one person, and my reality doesn't account for all the unique people in the world.

    But if one doesn't agree with the fundamental premise, doesn't agree right from the start that an Fi worldview is as valid as an Fe one, there are too many road-blocks in the way for this to happen.
    The thing is, while I'm curious about understanding things, interested in most people, and fairly warm, there are really only a handful of people I'm likely to do that with. It has nothing to do with not believing Fi is a valid worldview. It's just that it only happens with people I have known over a long period of time on a personal basis and whom I have reason to want to get closer to.

    While it may feel like Fe formality to you, there are a lot of the beginning stages of establishing a relationship that we haven't even begun to do. I mean, if we knew each other in real life, I'd put us at an acquaintance stage. I know your real name, what type your husband is, what you look like, and I've seen a few of your interactions on here. That is not enough information for me to base a deep, deep friendship on.

    At this point, our relationship cannot not handle my complete honesty, even if I am not trying to be hurtful. It's only when I get to a point where that is possible (for me that's the ultimate kind of vulnerability) that I also am likely to embark on the hand in hand journey. There are a very few people who are akin to me that I am able to skip over some of the preliminary stages more quickly with. Generally though, establishing rapport involves prolonged, increasingly in depth contact over a period of time. I feel like you would like to skip right to the core. When you try to push that happening sooner (while missing the preliminary steps), I find myself resisting. I think it's a reaction to Te methods rather than you yourself. I understand that your motives are excellent and you just want to further understanding.

    I realize that probably sounds like I want things only on my terms. I'm still sorting out that part. I realize that separately negotiating everything is an important part of developing a relationship to Fi users. In some cases, I have the impetus and reason to invest that amount of emotional energy and therefore I find it easier to do so.

    I am close friends with several Fi users already, so it's not that I don't appreciate their point of view. It's just that that very closeness makes it difficult sometimes to ask questions or figure out some of this stuff. Quite truthfully, at this point, I am attempting to do what I can to maintain and develop my relationship with those people. I am looking to better understand them and myself so that I can be a better friends to them and communicate more effectively. Perhaps that is not something that is possible to do outside of the context of that specific relationship.

    Hopefully that helps explain things a little better.

  2. #512
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ thanks for that fidelia. I respect your expression and where you are. You're being honest and that's as much as I would hope for. I don't have any questions about it, because I don't want to pry further, and it makes me glad that you've shared as much as you have.

    I didn't feel we were ready either - in one of my earlier posts, I said as much, but it was at the time that you felt I was bailing out on the whole concept of the journey, so I chose not to express that specific thought. If you wanted to jump in, I would dare to follow.

    That being said, I'm not trying to skip past anything in the formation of a friendship ... for you and I, I am aware it would take a lot of time. I'm open to that though, so you can consider it an invitation you can RSVP to at any time, and I look forward to getting to know you better too, as you feel is right for you.

    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #513
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I'm smiling at all this intricate relational interplay, imagining how the stereotypical guy might make friends:

    Example 1
    "Hey. Want to play Halo tonight, or go to a ball game?"
    "Oh, cool. And burgers after? See ya then!"

    Example 2
    "Wow. She's smokin'...! OMG is she hot."
    "Oh yeah. Ouch. Yeah."
    [both stare while eating their burgers]

    Example 3
    "And that's when I jumped the curb and somehow got out of it with only a bent rim, a warped grill, and two flats!"
    "Aw, that's nothing! One time I had a blowout on the highway and managed to sidewipe a tree but only lost my side mirror and both door handles, I thought I was a goner!"
    "Well, YEAH, but there was this OTHER time that I..."

    Best friends, I'm sure... just from that. Heh.

    Anyway, relevance ... there's a lot of factors that go into how friendships develop and to what degree.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #514
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't understand why you guys get so worked up about being "misread".
    Why does it even matter if there is a disparity between what you feel and how you make others feel? Why does that make you irritated? It's irrational, when you think about it. Other people hold incorrect beliefs all the time - you don't get worked up about that. Why not just say, "Hey, guess what? You're wrong about that" and move on if you don't want to get into a discussion. (The very fact that you DO get worked up, when you could laugh it off or ignore it, should be revealing in itself.)

    But if you want to understand then accept it as a valid piece of data. Accept that your actions have consequences, that despite what you might be feeling, your way of acting or way of speaking has made the other person feel something - and that that piece of data is every bit as important as what your feelings are telling you.

    I'm not suggesting you do this, Tallulah, but Extraverted feelers have a way of imposing their emotions on others. They emo dump, and then they feel fine, it's "out there", "off their chests", etc, etc. I know people who express themselves in ways that SCREAM anger to me - all the while denying feeling angry at all. Actually, what they are doing is making ME feel their anger (which they are repressing). Maybe you don't accept that, but it's widely accepted in psychoanalytic circles (i.e. transference/counter-transference/projective identification).

    Such people fail to comprehend the toxic effects of offloading their feelings onto others. I seldom express strong emotion in the presence of others and try to be as restrained as possible, not because I feel nothing - like the stereotypical INTP robot - but because I'm hyperaware of polluting other people with my own emotional state (of course I don't always succeed). But I don't seem to get that consideration from strong Fe types. I can get really stressed, even physically ill around them when they're emoting at me. I feel like I'm having to dissipate all this toxic energy and I don't know what to do with it. I know other Fi users who feel similarly. It's damned exhausting.
    Well, this is something, because my Fi is pretty weak, that I hadn't really considered. When someone vents at me about a situation that's bothering them, I don't feel their emotions or feel like it's toxic energy or anything like that. I know they need to get it out, and they'll feel better afterwards. And I might be able to help them make sense of it. I'll expand more when I get down to your other post, below.

    I don't think it bothers Fe users to be vented at, because we need to vent. But knowing the difference now, I will be careful not to vent willy-nilly with an Fi user, knowing it might make them feel like they've had a lot of negative energy dumped on them. That's a distinction I wouldn't have known to make.

    As far as why it matters, I don't know. It just does. I'm not sure I could explain it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Anger is a spectrum emotion that expresses from one end, inner frustration to the other end, flat out screaming frothing rage.

    Would it be more helpful if someone tried to pin down the exact emotion? The exact nuance?

    Or if I said - "I might be wrong, but is something is bothering you?" ... would that be a way of asking that's less contentious? Because it's more generic?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I would consider it a T thing more than some conflict between F functions here, if I had to consider it anything. If T is being precise, it's trying to label/describe the emotion with nuance, so if someone misses big-time on the nuance it just tends to add to the frustration and leaves one feeling misunderstood in addition to be falsely labeled/accused.

    T also tries to treat the emotion as an object rather than something intrinsic to the person, but the style of comment as "Are you angry?" starts to merge
    the person with their emotion.

    "Frustrated" is probably a safer word to use than "angry."


    And saying things like, "I feel right now like you're <emotion>" or "I'm sensing frustration, is this right, and can you tell me what's wrong?" would probably be better approaches... anything that suggests you are just describing what you perceive/feel but that it might not be accurate and you want the other person to confirm or explain.

    I'm also led back into considering language and how emotions/inflection gets used. In the US, inflection is often used to convey emotion; however, in a language like Cantonese, different inflections for the same phoenetics actually means different words, and variations in pitch and tone don't convey emotion at all, but meaning.

    Likewise, in this discussion: Some people use emotion cues to convey information rather than as a direct expression of a feeling state. It's like emotions are being used as a language to express the weight of the idea rather than being used as a descriptor of internal emotional state. The guy who is pounding on the podium in order to emphasize points in his speech might sound like he's angry, but he might just consciously be using that as a way to emphasize his point because he believes it that strongly but doesn't necessarily feel that emotion internally at the time.

    And I'm going to tie this back into some of the earlier comments about Fi -- I sometimes have found "passion" threatening because I perceived it as personally directed; but once I got the idea that the passion in the comments didn't mean "Shut up because I feel so strongly about things" or could result in some sort of unpredictable relational/physical violence, and that the sparring was okay even if it had emotional tones to it, it helped me to engage.
    This, especially the bolded. It might well be a T thing, but when I'm trying to figure out how I feel about something, it's usually because I'm trying to figure out how to frame the situation, how to get an accurate read. My emotions are only relevant insofar as they're helping me pinpoint what's wrong in the situation, and how I might be able to fix it. Once I've figured out the situation and why it caused me to feel weird about it, the weird feelings go away, and I can see clearly again. It's more like a warning alarm. It's important to me figure out if I'm frustrated, jealous, annoyed, suspicious, whatever, because it gives a truer picture of the situation.

    When I vent to someone, though, and this is important, I'm trying to figure out the situation. Only I need to know my emotional state...I need you to help me figure out if I'm reading the situation right, and help me figure out how to attack it. If you are focusing on my emotions, you're just clouding the issue, because my emotions are my own, and I'm handling those. I'm not as confused on that as much as I'm confused about the situation. So if you poke around in my emotions, you're not really helping me--I feel like now I have to explain my emotional state to you so we can get to the part where I really could use your input. And it feels like spinning my wheels, because I know what I'm feeling, but it's going to take some time to figure out how to characterize it to you.

    Also, the less of a big deal you make out of it, the better I'll respond. A simple, "you okay?" or "What's wrong?" will do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I'm wondering if this is a key difference: do Extraverted Feelers have to publically emote in order to understand/experience what they are feeling? (Much like Extraverted Thinkers say they have to talk in order to know what they think or Ne-doms need to brainstorm...?) Is this why it's so important that your listeners mirror back what you are feeling "accurately"?
    For me, it's exactly like that. If it's an emotionally charged situation, I'm too close to it to know how to react. So I might be okay figuring out my emotions, but I need to externalize my frustrations/confusion so I can get some input from someone who cares, but is not so close to the situation. I need two heads put together (or more) in those instances. Otherwise, I can Ti loop on faulty information, but Ne is going crazy on possibilities fueled by all this extraneous feeling stuff. Taking it inside like I'd do with a regular Ti issue would be the worst possible thing for me to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Maybe it doesn't bother me because I feel pretty intertwined with my emotions rather than seeing them as separate from my being. What drives you to detach, place an arm's length between you and your emotions? Is it a lack of trust in a fleeting emotional state that I mentioned earlier? You need time to see how the emotion expresses over time?
    The emotions are just clues that will help me figure out that there's something wrong. But Ti is what will pull me out of the ditch. Emotions are fleeting, and in my case, would lead me to express myself with all the maturity of a 4 year old. Mine are not that refined. If I acted on them, they'd lead to stuff like telling people off and wanting to slash someone's tires (even though I wouldn't). I need my more objective self, and a trusted third party, to help me back to a place where I can see clearly. Emotions by themselves muddy things up, rather than clarify.

    I would tend to say this IRL, although I wouldn't place "can you tell me what's wrong" in the same sentence ... I think that's a question that tends to shut down the processing of the emotion in the first place.
    I'd MUCH rather "can you tell me what's wrong?" than a more solicitous question. It gives me more freedom to choose to express myself how I want to, rather than being led.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't know, I think I might respond better to someone asking me what's wrong, or asking if everything's alright than to them commenting on what I seem like. If I said, "Nothing's wrong" and the person explained why they figured there was, I'd probably prefer that to the "Are you upset? You seem a little frustrated here". Also by them saying why they thought that, I would be more open to considering what message other people are taking away from my actions/expression etc.
    Me, too. No question about it.

    I'm trying to figure out why that is, because it's kind of a subtle difference and shouldn't be that big a deal. I feel like the comment on how I appear seems more presumptuous to me than if someone assumed something was going on and if they were mistaken, explained what led them to believe that was the case. Maybe it's that commenting on me would seem more like you thought of yourself as objective and that my behaviour was observable, whereas if you make a subjective assumption (made due to things you thought you perceived), I find it more easy to agree/disagree with and say why. I don't know if other Fe users feel that way or not.
    I do. I don't like people commenting on how I appear to be. I don't know if it's because it feels presumptuous or makes me self-conscious or what. But saying, "what's wrong?" shows concern, and is generic enough that I can stay focused on the problem at hand, rather than wondering if I'm sending some sort of weird signal, or if the other person is off.
    Something Witty

  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I've had Fe types tell me I "seem angry" before... it's not restricted to Fi/Fe.

    They're usually wrong - it's often in text, and I sometimes feign anger for humourous effect. It really doesn't bother me when people read me wrong - I find it amusing most of the time. IRL, most often people describe me as being very calm - they're usually wrong too, although that's certainly the image I project. If I am genuinely angry/sad/feeling any powerful emotion I always deal with it by withdrawing. I can't deal with strong feelings in any other way. External input just confuses me.
    I'm wondering if this is a key difference: do Extraverted Feelers have to publically emote in order to understand/experience what they are feeling? (Much like Extraverted Thinkers say they have to talk in order to know what they think or Ne-doms need to brainstorm...?) Is this why it's so important that your listeners mirror back what you are feeling "accurately"?

    Yeah, people are wrong about me sometimes, too. It's just the way it is. My tone on-line gets misinterpreted all of the time as being angry or upset when I'm not. I think all kinds of misunderstandings happen on the Internet because you can't see facial expressions or tone of voice. I had several people from this site who met me in person seem pretty surprised that I was different from what they expected.

    Also, people can have emotional displays about something that really is just a venting of frustration (like Tallulah was talking about) and have it mistaken for anger or something else. There's also the issue - and I don't know if this happens to some types more than others - of being upset about one thing and it appearing to be about something else because of repression or simply not being aware of what you were feeling until it came out. I know a lot of times I don't want to cry or make a scene about something personal/embarrassing in front of others, and so it will end up coming out looking like a different emotion. I relate to both withdrawing and expressing.

  6. #516
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @ Jennifer - lol! the stereotypical male is totally ESTP

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think it's fine to say how things look from your perspective, skylights. Just explain the thought processes in doing so and what you react to best. At the risk of sounding can-opener-ish, I do much better when I at least understand the process that gets people to different points in their thinking/decision making and I become much more tolerant and flexible. (Incidentally, in other dealings, I feel more secure when I know roughly what to expect from the other person next. I don't need to control their behaviour, so much as be able to have a reasonable prediction of what it might be).
    this is good to know. though... i feel kind of bad to tell you this, but... uh... i don't really know how i'm going to behave. it's the P thing, i guess, you just kinda take things as they come. i don't know if i a strong P can tell you with huge reliability their upcoming pattern of behavior. i think that the best thing is to understand our thought process, because theoretically as Ji we should have fairly steady patterns of internal cognition. and ask us to pay careful attention, if there's something you really need us to be aware about.

    I was finding the same thing as you today, trying to post without using words like productive, solution, results, behaviour, actions, clarifying etc all the time! I realized what a tendancy I have to focus on the words people are saying, their ideas, the thoughts expressed and compliment them, rather than assuring the person themselves of their value to me. It still seems foreign to me, as a compliment about what I say or identification with it is felt as being validation of myself. I just assume the other person is aware that we have mutual respect if I am engaging in detailed conversation with them.
    well, and i imagine most of the time that is true. i'm fascinated by the extent to which i've realized some people listen to my words and not my other cues, though. i recently was speaking with my (INTP) dad and thinking that i think that i need to listen to his exact words more, and ignore his emotional projection more, while he needs to pay attention to my emotional projection more, and my exact wording less. to me, if there is a negative emotional projection towards me while someone's talking, it's like they're giving me the finger while talking and trying to ignore that is not only hard, but it seems counterintuitive. it's going to take a while to learn how to devote most of my cognitive energy into attending fully to words instead of partially to emotions as well. it's like pulling something out of context... and Fi reads context.

    so when someone is complimenting your work, do you see it more as like a compliment just of your work? and then you are proud of your work, so that makes you feel good? if someone were to do what i talk about below in response to William K about giving a little like "hey the idea of your paper is great, just wanted to help you fix it", does that come off as okay to you, or is that really odd?

    You expressed concern though at appearing self-centred to us. Rather than replacing what seems natural to you, think more along the lines of adding. After you state things about your own experience, ask what it looks like from their perspective. That conveys interest in them.
    that works for me. i think the question of what it's like for you is always in my mind, but i assume that if you want to share it, you will. now it is more evident that i should make it clear that i want to hear it.

    I think we all can feel when the other person is holding something back (even Fe users). I see better now why it bothers Fi users as much as it does. My main concern when someone holds something back is how it is impacting our relationship, if it's something bad that the person feels about me (remember, we expect others to probe us for answers if they really care, so we do the same!) or if it is keeping us from taking action that will ameliorate the situation. Fi often will state conjecture about why we are not saying everything as if it is fact. That is usually what I react to the worst. It adds to the emotional noise I am attempting to bleed off so that I can talk about what's going on (if there is something). It also makes me feel like the person really doesn't understand me at all. They are also delusionally insisting that they do understand me and will help me, taking on a teachery kind of tone that feels patronizing, yet misinformed. It raises my hackles, kind of like Fe insisting that it knows the one best way for YOU to interact with others, and trying to impose that on you, when it really knows nothing about why you choose to act as you do, understand you sufficiently or what is best for you ultimately.
    ah yeah, i see how that would be really annoying. it's like a different way of imposing, but in truth both of us are really just guessing and going by what we hope to be most accurate, because we need that basis to use our preferred functions. perhaps what we need to do is work harder to engage the others. Ti can have same teachery tone, too. like it sounds like you think you understand everything that i'm doing, but i'm really acting on a totally different plane of reasoning. it's been interesting that, now that i'm more aware of this, i've been seeing it from Fi users in the forums. i think that perhaps to us it more naturally reads as "this is my opinion", because probably we conjecture like that too. but yeah, it can come off condescending.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Okay, thank you, that helps. Is there anything that really helps to convince you that there's no need for the alarm, we can go ahead and hit the snooze button?
    maybe trying to think of a reason why i'm mistakenly reading, and trying to downplay it for me? i mean, it's possible that i'm just failing, but like, with my dad, he's often frustrated with work or some other project, and it comes off when he speaks. if he could try to make an effort to speak less roughly and decisively (when he is upset he tends to make negative blanket statements) when he speaks with me, that would be really helpful to me. his emoting is so intense to me, it feels like a river rushing around me. it would be so hard to ignore it. but helping redirect that river so it doesn't all come right at me would be very helpful. this is true for my Fe dom mom, too, though. we both feel his emoting very strongly, though i think for her she falls into the trap of taking it personally much less. and even just something like, yeah, "i'm a little tired, so maybe that's why your reading is off" is helpful. we seek to understand the discrepancy that we feel...

    i suspect it's hard to just totally dismiss it because we use a baseline consistency to measure everything against... it's a subjective function... so when that consistency is not present, it's hard to judge everything else. evidence that you're not feeling that way is rather helpful, too, to counteract the evidence that i am picking up on that is pointing a different direction. otherwise i feel like i'm measuring something that you insist is 9 inches but i keep getting 12 inches. i might trust you deeply in "matters of the heart", but factually, i still have this suspicion that in this one case, maybe i am right and it's going to end up biting me in the butt. of course, you're probably measuring it against things in the external environment (Fe) or for a different unit (Ti), so that's our issue. that, or curvature of spacetime (aka my ruler is fucked up because i am tired), or i really just need a new ruler.

    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    I write research papers in my work and it gets reviewed anonymously. And when I get something critical of what I write, I tend to "read between the lines" and think the reviewer doesn't like me and is calling me an idiot, when they are really trying to help me improve my paper.
    dittooooo. not research paper reviews for me, but someone correcting your work. and really, all it would take to reverse that idea is a "hey, nice article. i found some errors but i'm impressed by the amount of time you put into this and i think the points you're getting at are really valuable, so i'm going to tear this to pieces to help you make it better". and to some people probably the fact that they took the time to write the review should give silent testimony to that, but without concrete evidence, i really don't know why i should believe that. maybe they just felt like nitpicking something that day and mine was top of the pile, or maybe they just hate me. only words can tell.

    and, on top of that, how do i know that i can trust their work if i'm wondering if they are just doing it to antagonize me? i think that really gets me sometimes. occasionally two NTPs i know well really just do like to antagonize people because they like watching their reactions (they have each told me this), and then they get upset when i don't trust them when they are critiquing me! but if i don't know your intentions are good, i don't see very much of a reason to trust your behavior. whereas my Fe dom friend can see a behavior more objectively in terms of how useful to her it is, instead of worrying so much about whether to trust it or not. it is what it is regardless of the initial intention. i am trying to learn this.

    any tips?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    That frustration is almost never expressed to the person I'm frustrated with--because I'm still at the point where I don't really know how I feel about something, and I'm trying to make sense of it. (Talking to the person involved would only cloud my perceptions.) But it's not anger. Internally, it's often something like calm but confused. Maybe sometimes hurt by another party.

    I remember venting like that to an xNFP who was not a tremendously close friend, but who was kind of in my "circle" at the time, and she told one of our mutual friends later that I was "just so angry," and she didn't know how to calm me down. It's situations like these that confirm my desire to vent with someone who does understand my emotional state in times like these, and won't try to insist I'm angry when I'm not. Someone who will listen to my words instead of trying to read my emotional state. I was so far from angry in that situation it wasn't even funny. But this chick was also not a tremendously secure person, anyway. But that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
    this is very valuable to know, that you may actually feel calm inside when frustrated even though your external behavior might seem a little more heated than normal. for me, frustration is all about internal heat, and i want to fix that ASAP because it throws everything inside of me off. i need the cooling to come from the external world.

    and yeah, plus NFPs don't really tend to be the most secure people on the planet anyway. i feel kind of bad for her. she may have been picking up on this frustration on some level and freaking out because she thought you wanted her help and she was totally failing.

    Now that I'm typing all this out, it might be that I mostly get irritated by people who aren't close to me trying to tell me how I feel. I will cut close friends some slack on that account--though I might tell them I don't want to talk about it if I don't feel like doing an emotional biopsy at the moment.
    lol! "emotional biopsy." makes sense. carries the sense of intrusion that i think i'm beginning to understand. for me, i WANT to get that emotion out, so someone asking me to open up is awesome. but if there's not really a huge amount of chaos inside because of that emotion... then there's no need.

    what's people's normal reaction to saying you don't want to talk about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ^ Yeah, I analyze like crazy also.

    This part below also sounds like enneagram 9 Fi much more than e4 Fi....
    I feel it is almost opposite for me as a 4w5 - I tend to make decisions geared towards maintaining authenticity, which can make me put them off so as not to disrupt external harmony needlessly.

    Fi-s desire for harmony causes them to make choices geared toward pleasing others rather than themselves. Thus their hesitancy to make choices is a fear that they will sacrifice their authenticity by putting others first. Feeling thus pressured, they may withdraw from others to protect their sense of Self, but this also creates a feeling of loneliness and isolation. They may also not be aware of their withdrawal and feel rejected
    it's hard for me to resonate with this as it's written... i do feel a push-pull though... it's not really "authenticity" - i don't think i'll be not being myself if i make some choice - but it's more like i fear rejecting something that is deeply meaningful - that reminds me of someone important, or something like that. i feel like i'm betraying them if i choose the other thing, even if the other thing is more pleasant to me for some reason. like if i'm stuck between red and green, suddenly it becomes a decision between mom's favorite color and dad's. and that's very upsetting to me, since i love both of them deeply. or between fire and forest... i like both at different times. sometimes i'm not even sure which option i like more, and that's really confusing. it becomes very difficult to choose not because i fear not being myself, but because of all the associations i carry with me. i fear making a decision that will devalue someone or something by not choosing it. and the bigger the decision, the harder it gets. and i fail to see a clear pattern of what i'm deciding based on as connected to how happy i end up with that decision. i really need to figure this out.

    do any other Fi-ers (haha, fire) ever feel that way? possibly i am crazy

    I've also thought of the basic concept of Fi not seeking to affect or be affected, but to simply gauge according to its inner ideal and react when necessary, or on the occasions when something hits on an ideal (positively or negatively).
    maybe it's that i'm e3, but i seek to affect and be affected. i do not want to put anyone on a course that is not true to themselves, though. that is what i have a problem with some people, usually Fe people, doing... i think sometimes they don't think about the desires of other people and just guide them where they think those people should be going for the overall good. i'm good at helping people get where they want to go, but i want to know where they want to go first, even if it's not in harmony with the overall pattern. of course i think the person in question should try to be smooth about what they want to do, but if they want to rebel, that's kind of okay with me. sometimes things need a good shaking up so the things underneath come to the surface.

    how do Fe-ers feel about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    I'm wondering if this is a key difference: do Extraverted Feelers have to publically emote in order to understand/experience what they are feeling? (Much like Extraverted Thinkers say they have to talk in order to know what they think or Ne-doms need to brainstorm...?) Is this why it's so important that your listeners mirror back what you are feeling "accurately"?
    that's a fascinating idea. if this is true, it would make a lot of sense in the way extraverted Feelers come off to me when they don't always mean to. actually though Ne is pretty internal, as far as i'm away i don't need to project it - it's the Te for me that's very external. extraverted Perceiving just reads things that are external, it doesn't need to be discussed to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    At this point, our relationship cannot not handle my complete honesty, even if I am not trying to be hurtful.
    sorry, i'm totally butting into yall's conversation but i figured it was fair game since it was a public post... fidelia, i'm still not sure i understand this sentiment. it's been expressed by others too - this "you wouldn't be able to handle me" - and i don't understand it. what is there to see that is without question going to overpower the other person? it really does sound, and i am totally sure you do not intend this, that you see yourself as infinitely more complex, heavy, deep, important, etc. than the rest of us, and that you will only deign to allow them us in once we've gone through your initiatory rites. why not just be up front about it? people handle a lot of very difficult things in life. are you really so grand, and are we all really so incompetent, as to not be able to bear what you actually think? i don't think you think like that at all, so i am wondering what it could be instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    Such people fail to comprehend the toxic effects of offloading their feelings onto others.
    YES. this is such an important point, and perhaps this is somewhat of the source of all the empathy-sympathy drama. i think that seeing another person in a less-than-good state is painful to all of us, but for an introverted Feeler, we introvert the feeling. it actively hurts us, which in part causes me to be so freaked out and impulsive and blow-uppy when another person and i are in conflict. i've got all this negative stuff coming into me and i feel like i have no way of stopping it - hence the Te hammer. for an extraverted Feeler, you are very, very good at seeing and understanding and relating with the other's pain, and you can feel your own pain for their state, but you do not have to adopt that pain as your own to understand it. we do - and to some extent this gives us an insider view, but to another, it means that we sacrifice the ability to block off ourselves.
    Last edited by skylights; 09-27-2010 at 02:23 PM. Reason: i always miss a quote bracket or 7 lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't understand why you guys get so worked up about being "misread".
    Why does it even matter if there is a disparity between what you feel and how you make others feel? Why does that make you irritated? It's irrational, when you think about it. Other people hold incorrect beliefs all the time - you don't get worked up about that. Why not just say, "Hey, guess what? You're wrong about that" and move on if you don't want to get into a discussion. (The very fact that you DO get worked up, when you could laugh it off or ignore it, should be revealing in itself.)

    But if you want to understand then accept it as a valid piece of data. Accept that your actions have consequences, that despite what you might be feeling, your way of acting or way of speaking has made the other person feel something - and that that piece of data is every bit as important as what your feelings are telling you.

    I'm not suggesting you do this, Tallulah, but Extraverted feelers have a way of imposing their emotions on others. They emo dump, and then they feel fine, it's "out there", "off their chests", etc, etc. I know people who express themselves in ways that SCREAM anger to me - all the while denying feeling angry at all. Actually, what they are doing is making ME feel their anger (which they are repressing). Maybe you don't accept that, but it's widely accepted in psychoanalytic circles (i.e. transference/counter-transference/projective identification).

    Such people fail to comprehend the toxic effects of offloading their feelings onto others. I seldom express strong emotion in the presence of others and try to be as restrained as possible, not because I feel nothing - like the stereotypical INTP robot - but because I'm hyperaware of polluting other people with my own emotional state (of course I don't always succeed). But I don't seem to get that consideration from strong Fe types. I can get really stressed, even physically ill around them when they're emoting at me. I feel like I'm having to dissipate all this toxic energy and I don't know what to do with it. I know other Fi users who feel similarly. It's damned exhausting.
    This is opposite from what a lot of other people say...there's a common opinion that people with Fi/Te "bitchslap" and that people with Fe/Ti are more likely to withdraw or repress in consideration of others. You're saying here that Fe is what *causes* people to "emo dump." And how to you as an INTP have Fi? Are you a Socionics INTp?

    At any rate, in regards to why people care how others perceive them...could it be embarrassment? Embarrassment that other people would think of them as "angry" or overly dramatic? I know sometimes I don't want people to get the wrong idea about me simply because I care about that individual's opinion of me. I wonder in this case if Tallulah felt embarrassed that the ENFP was perpetuating rumors that she might be an angry person? I dunno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This is opposite from what a lot of other people say...there's a common opinion that people with Fi/Te "bitchslap" and that people with Fe/Ti are more likely to withdraw or repress in consideration of others. You're saying here that Fe is what *causes* people to "emo dump."
    Yeah, at this point I'm seeing a lot of the same either/or comments applied to both sides, so I'm not even sure what is actually true anymore.

    At any rate, in regards to why people care how others perceive them...could it be embarrassment? Embarrassment that other people would think of them as "angry" or overly dramatic? I know sometimes I don't want people to get the wrong idea about me simply because I care about that individual's opinion of me. I wonder in this case if Tallulah felt embarrassed that the ENFP was perpetuating rumors that she might be an angry person? I dunno.
    I don't know about 'lulah (although she and I typically share similar experiences), but for me it's not necessarily about my image "per se" -- that they're labeling me with a potentially embarrassing image -- but just that the image/perception is WRONG.

    If I'm doing something potentially embarassing or I know and agree I've done something stupid, foolish, crappy, or whatever, then if someone notes it about me, I'm okay with that. It's when it's not correct -- either good or bad -- that I get really frustrated. (I don't like being praised, either, when I feel I did not do something commendable or worth praising.) It's not about modesty, and it's not about looking good, it's about being accurately perceived.
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    ^^

    skylights--I think it's more like what I was trying to convey earlier. The complete honesty that Fi users feel comfortable with among other Fi users, usually turns into a Hurt Feelings Fest between both parties if a Fe user is completely honest in their own way. If you don't know us well enough, you'll probably hear it as an indictment of you and your character, though it wouldn't be intended that way.

    I can't speak for fidelia, but I also have to know a person's character before I open up to them completely and share the vulnerable side of me. I have had people in the past be careless with confidential information or I've invested time sharing things with them only to realize they were just bored and wanting something to chew on for a while. Things like that make me more choosy about who to open up to. I need to know you a) really care about me, individually, and b) intend to stick around, or c) we need to click on a level where we just sorta understand all that about each other intuitively before I share. It's not because I think I'm that great. It's because when I invest in someone, I really invest in them, and I don't have the energy to deal with people who aren't also invested, or who might betray me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Well, this is something, because my Fi is pretty weak, that I hadn't really considered. When someone vents at me about a situation that's bothering them, I don't feel their emotions or feel like it's toxic energy or anything like that. I know they need to get it out, and they'll feel better afterwards. And I might be able to help them make sense of it. I'll expand more when I get down to your other post, below.

    I don't think it bothers Fe users to be vented at, because we need to vent. But knowing the difference now, I will be careful not to vent willy-nilly with an Fi user, knowing it might make them feel like they've had a lot of negative energy dumped on them. That's a distinction I wouldn't have known to make.

    As far as why it matters, I don't know. It just does. I'm not sure I could explain it.





    This, especially the bolded. It might well be a T thing, but when I'm trying to figure out how I feel about something, it's usually because I'm trying to figure out how to frame the situation, how to get an accurate read. My emotions are only relevant insofar as they're helping me pinpoint what's wrong in the situation, and how I might be able to fix it. Once I've figured out the situation and why it caused me to feel weird about it, the weird feelings go away, and I can see clearly again. It's more like a warning alarm. It's important to me figure out if I'm frustrated, jealous, annoyed, suspicious, whatever, because it gives a truer picture of the situation.

    When I vent to someone, though, and this is important, I'm trying to figure out the situation. Only I need to know my emotional state...I need you to help me figure out if I'm reading the situation right, and help me figure out how to attack it. If you are focusing on my emotions, you're just clouding the issue, because my emotions are my own, and I'm handling those. I'm not as confused on that as much as I'm confused about the situation. So if you poke around in my emotions, you're not really helping me--I feel like now I have to explain my emotional state to you so we can get to the part where I really could use your input. And it feels like spinning my wheels, because I know what I'm feeling, but it's going to take some time to figure out how to characterize it to you.

    Also, the less of a big deal you make out of it, the better I'll respond. A simple, "you okay?" or "What's wrong?" will do.



    For me, it's exactly like that. If it's an emotionally charged situation, I'm too close to it to know how to react. So I might be okay figuring out my emotions, but I need to externalize my frustrations/confusion so I can get some input from someone who cares, but is not so close to the situation. I need two heads put together (or more) in those instances. Otherwise, I can Ti loop on faulty information, but Ne is going crazy on possibilities fueled by all this extraneous feeling stuff. Taking it inside like I'd do with a regular Ti issue would be the worst possible thing for me to do.



    The emotions are just clues that will help me figure out that there's something wrong. But Ti is what will pull me out of the ditch. Emotions are fleeting, and in my case, would lead me to express myself with all the maturity of a 4 year old. Mine are not that refined. If I acted on them, they'd lead to stuff like telling people off and wanting to slash someone's tires (even though I wouldn't). I need my more objective self, and a trusted third party, to help me back to a place where I can see clearly. Emotions by themselves muddy things up, rather than clarify.



    I'd MUCH rather "can you tell me what's wrong?" than a more solicitous question. It gives me more freedom to choose to express myself how I want to, rather than being led.




    Me, too. No question about it.



    I do. I don't like people commenting on how I appear to be. I don't know if it's because it feels presumptuous or makes me self-conscious or what. But saying, "what's wrong?" shows concern, and is generic enough that I can stay focused on the problem at hand, rather than wondering if I'm sending some sort of weird signal, or if the other person is off.
    I identify a lot with this post. When I'm venting what I'm trying to figure out is whether or not I'm crazy to be frustrated with a situation. I want to know if my feelings are reasonable under the circumstances or if there is data or a perspective that I am missing. Is it a simple misunderstanding? Am I an idiot for putting up with this? Is there some way to fix it that hasn't occurred to me?

    The feelings are there and are data to be considered, but they aren't my primary focus. I know that the feelings will pass and I'm future oriented so I want to know how to prevent these negative feelings from happening again because it is unpleasant.

    I can't just act upon whatever I'm feeling because that might not be constructive to everyone involved and, even though I'm frustrated, I still do want to act in the best interest of the others involved.

    As far as just expressing my feelings, when that happens it makes me feel ugly and out of control and that is not how I want to feel. Once the feeling is expressed it doesn't matter if you were cranky or PMSing or it was a misunderstanding the damage is done -- you can't take it back. I know people think they want to know what I'm feeling, but past experience has shown me that they really, really do not. They only say that because they think they know what I'm feeling and the intensity in which I'm feeling it. When they find out it wasn't what they were expecting, they usually are not happy that they found out and they are also usually scared. Which I know makes me sound like David Banner, but that's just my experience.
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