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  1. #501
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    I've had Fe types tell me I "seem angry" before... it's not restricted to Fi/Fe.

    They're usually wrong - it's often in text, and I sometimes feign anger for humourous effect. It really doesn't bother me when people read me wrong - I find it amusing most of the time. IRL, most often people describe me as being very calm - they're usually wrong too, although that's certainly the image I project. If I am genuinely angry/sad/feeling any powerful emotion I always deal with it by withdrawing. I can't deal with strong feelings in any other way. External input just confuses me.
    I'm wondering if this is a key difference: do Extraverted Feelers have to publically emote in order to understand/experience what they are feeling? (Much like Extraverted Thinkers say they have to talk in order to know what they think or Ne-doms need to brainstorm...?) Is this why it's so important that your listeners mirror back what you are feeling "accurately"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #502
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    IRL, most often people describe me as being very calm - they're usually wrong too, although that's certainly the image I project. If I am genuinely angry/sad/feeling any powerful emotion I always deal with it by withdrawing. I can't deal with strong feelings in any other way. External input just confuses me.
    Noted.

    I'm wondering if this is a key difference: do Extraverted Feelers have to publically emote in order to understand/experience what they are feeling? (Much like Extraverted Thinkers say they have to talk in order to know what they think or Ne-doms need to brainstorm...?) Is this why it's so important that your listeners mirror back what you are feeling "accurately"?
    It's an interesting idea, since you're springboarding off the Ne brainstorming need and other actions that have to take place "outside the head" in order to be explored adequately that is evident elsewhere.

    I've had a few very strong Fe coworkers; the ESFJ in particular really seemed to need to see it externally and was a muddled mess inside until she got to throw things out there and get something back to give her coherence.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #503
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    That is all very interesting Jennifer.

    If someone asked me "Are you angry?" and I wasn't, but was feeling frustrated about something, I would say, "No, I'm not angry, just feeling a little frustrated with X".

    Funny how that question doesn't bother me at all. And to me the question is respectful because 1.) it recognizes there are some underlying emotions and 2.) doesn't presume to tack on the nuance for me, it allows me to clarify.

    Because as I said above, anger is a spectrum, all different shades. Frustration is on the low end of the anger scale. And, frustration can lead to greater anger states. Since I recognize frustration as that low level anger state, someone saying "You seem angry" just needs me to provide the appropriate measure on the 1 - 10 scale (or 1- 100 scale).

    T also tries to treat the emotion as an object rather than something intrinsic to the person, but the style of comment as "Are you angry?" starts to merge
    the person with their emotion.
    Maybe it doesn't bother me because I feel pretty intertwined with my emotions rather than seeing them as separate from my being. What drives you to detach, place an arm's length between you and your emotions? Is it a lack of trust in a fleeting emotional state that I mentioned earlier? You need time to see how the emotion expresses over time?

    And saying things like, "I feel right now like you're <emotion>" or "I'm sensing frustration, is this right, and can you tell me what's wrong?" would probably be better approaches.
    I would tend to say this IRL, although I wouldn't place "can you tell me what's wrong" in the same sentence ... I think that's a question that tends to shut down the processing of the emotion in the first place.

    I try to use generic words like "upset", "frustrated" or "bothering" ("Are you upset"? "You seem a little frustrated here" ... "Is something bothering you today"?) since they seem less presumptuous and are better received.

    Whatever I sense at a deeper level is likely not open for public (or even personal) consumption.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #504
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't know, I think I might respond better to someone asking me what's wrong, or asking if everything's alright than to them commenting on what I seem like. If I said, "Nothing's wrong" and the person explained why they figured there was, I'd probably prefer that to the "Are you upset? You seem a little frustrated here". Also by them saying why they thought that, I would be more open to considering what message other people are taking away from my actions/expression etc.

    I'm trying to figure out why that is, because it's kind of a subtle difference and shouldn't be that big a deal. I feel like the comment on how I appear seems more presumptuous to me than if someone assumed something was going on and if they were mistaken, explained what led them to believe that was the case. Maybe it's that commenting on me would seem more like you thought of yourself as objective and that my behaviour was observable, whereas if you make a subjective assumption (made due to things you thought you perceived), I find it more easy to agree/disagree with and say why. I don't know if other Fe users feel that way or not.

  5. #505
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I've had Fe types tell me I "seem angry" before... it's not restricted to Fi/Fe.

    They're usually wrong - it's often in text, and I sometimes feign anger for humourous effect.
    You do have an edge in text, and sometimes for me, it's been challenging to know when you're joking or not. Reading the words makes it seem you are angry. But then, I don't sense a true anger, so the mismatch messes with my head.

    IRL, most often people describe me as being very calm - they're usually wrong too, although that's certainly the image I project. If I am genuinely angry/sad/feeling any powerful emotion I always deal with it by withdrawing. I can't deal with strong feelings in any other way. External input just confuses me.
    Yes, I can relate to that - I've sung in performances where I am feeling stage fright x100 and people say, "You seem so relaxed and calm, I could never do what you do up there!" and being "relaxed" is far from the truth. So if even in that state, people aren't picking up on my internal stress, it makes me aware that the everyday stuff is likely way under the radar for most people.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #506
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Funny how that question doesn't bother me at all. And to me the question is respectful because 1.) it recognizes there are some underlying emotions and 2.) doesn't presume to tack on the nuance for me, it allows me to clarify.
    I find it interesting to hear how it doesn't bother you, and it's the sort of feedback I use to recalibrate my way of thinking about such things. I just have to be really aware that some people don't respond the way I do in this area.

    Maybe it doesn't bother me because I feel pretty intertwined with my emotions rather than seeing them as separate from my being. What drives you to detach, place an arm's length between you and your emotions? Is it a lack of trust in a fleeting emotional state that I mentioned earlier? You need time to see how the emotion expresses over time?
    Can't speak for everyone, although it's pretty common for T types to distrust emotion. Emotion is not a friend, especially early in life, where the emphasis is rationality and coming to "logical conclusions." At best, emotion can be ignored when you need to "think clearly" but at worst it taints and muddies, even can completely undermine, what is perceived as rational and thus accurate thought.

    It's an enemy, typically; and at best, a frenemy... the trickster. If you lose your head or get swept away in something, it means you could end up making some decisions that will commit you to certain paths (or limit you elsewhere) that you will later regret or realize was irrational... meaning your life is now not consistent with your thinking. Even when I was prepared for it, I still realized how badly emotion could mislead (like the first time I really fell in love, and it was so intense and pervasive I thought it would seriously last forever... and then it went away after a few months and I felt completely jaded and gutted and misled, so I lost even more faith in emotional states as "truth").

    One problem, though, is that happiness is an emotional state; and contentment is often experienced through some level of emotion (it's a sense of personal balance, so I can't say it's quite an emotion, except for maybe "peace / lack of imbalance"). There's a lot of stuff in life where you end up feeling numb and unalive if you've detached from all your emotions; the goal is to somehow weave it together and give it its due while minimizing the ways it can be misleading.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes, I can relate to that - I've sung in performances where I am feeling stage fright x100 and people say, "You seem so relaxed and calm, I could never do what you do up there!" and being "relaxed: is far from the truth. So if even in that state, people aren't picking up on my internal stress, it makes me aware that the everyday stuff is likely way under the radar for most people.
    Well, it can be. It depends on how polished the exterior image is. I have people comment on things like this to me as well, but sometimes I'm nervous enough to want to puke. I've had enough years playing piano in public that, when someone says I seem relaxed and calm, that's actually true; but public speaking, on the other hand, I just want to vomit, and I'm a nervous wreck shortly before I have to go on.

    Anyway, I don't know whether it's truly "under the radar." I know for me, my childhood environment left me feeling like, no matter what happened, I had to be calm, and stable, and never look afraid. I had to look like nothing was flustering me. So that is what I learned to do. I can look calm and fine on the surface, but inside I can be devastatingly off-kilter. I find it both a useful and yet a devastating ability to have; it can be like being imprisoned in a block of ice and no one knows how bad things are.

    As far as withdrawing goes when I'm "really" upset... well, I more often do that. yesterday was one of those days. I felt like crap, and I was just exhausted from dealing with a few relational issues, and I just ... buggered out. I didn't respond to any texts, I didn't respond to phone calls, I didn't respond to e-mails. I just cut off all communication with the outside world. I saw the messages as they piled up but had no will or energy to answer them, I just didn't want to. I ended up worrying a few people because of it, which I then had to deal with it, I caused ripples in the relationships; but I just could no longer function; I just needed to completely pull out. Typically if I engage you, even if I sound upset, that's more positive (or shows I've got some reserves left) than if I disappear or stop talking completely.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #507
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Projection is a human quality, not a cognitive function quality IMO. We fail when we try to say "xNFPs project", and succeed when we discuss "How xNFPs might project".

    For example, I find that NFPs are more prone to project emotions/motivations that don't exist, while NFJs are more prone to project needs/intentions that don't exist.

    Agree

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    No, I think it's arrogant that a Fi-dom insists they know my emotional state when I do know it.

    Okay, thank you, that helps. Is there anything that really helps to convince you that there's no need for the alarm, we can go ahead and hit the snooze button?
    Well..we'd prefer it if you clue us in as to why it's there, what it means and why you're ignoring it and if you need help

    But....just acknowledging it's there and telling us you've got it covered, but thanks anyways for pointing it out works brilliantly usually. The latter isn't even necessary...it's just that we wanna jump in and help, if you want...and otherwise at the very least warn ya, oftne coz it's a potential factor in the mood you're spreading, and colouring your views on whatever it is we're discussing. It's somethign that sticks out like a sore thumb to us, so...acknowledging that it is there, and it has a possible influence but you'll be fine, reassures us that you've got all the info you need for handling the situation, whatever that situation is (our curiosity is still dying to know, but we'll respect your privacy if you prefer )

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So say a person doesn't have malicious intentions or motivations, but their actions are causing difficulties for you.

    How do you communicate in a way that will not hurt them unduly, that though you do not attribute bad intentions to them, that the behaviors that are causing difficulties have to change?
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    NFPs? Anyone? This is I think the crux of the issue for us Fe users. I get the sense that just expressing that they are valuable to me as a person, but their behaviour is impacting me or others negatively might still have a lot more read into it than I intend or may feel like I am telling them to act inauthentically or am being stifling/bossy.
    Imo, the best way to ask an Fi-user to stop doing what they're doing is by pointing out the situation in an objective Te-way. Describe what's happening.

    Instead of saying: 'you're responsible for this and this and this going wrong and how coudl you!!', go 'damn, now this and this and this is going to take a hell of a time to clean up.... Hey, it might help if you [insert helpful action, be it stopping a behavior or starting one], followed by an explanation as to why if they look at you wide-eyed (coz sometimes, we *just* don't notice). ASsess the situation. Enlist their help. NFPs love helping others, after all.

    If there's a recurring behavior, go about it like this:

    1) acknowledge and state the basis of your relationship ('Hey, listen, I need to talk to you for a sec. Ya know how I like you and how I love that you [Insert positive quality, if possible the quality you wanna comment on in a situation where it is a positive trait], but when this and this and this occurs, it tends to [insert negative consequence]. Is there any chance you could [ suggest better behavior] or perhaps have another solution for that?

    You'll find that when asked "properly", many NFPs will bend over backwards to get you what you want, as it'll make you happy. Be sure to appreciate them for making the adjustment and don't expect them to adjust this except for when around you (or if you made it clear it negatively impacts a group). Also, if there is resistance, it's not due to unwillingness but becoz it comes close to a core value. Talk together to see if you can find a win-win situation for both (their values kept inact and the negative impact reduced).




    I am aware of how arrogant, expectant and self-absorbed this must sound to you, but the essence of it is that there *is* no social contract or social set of rules to an Fi-user, usually. To me, there's only the personal contract, tailored especially to who you are and who I am. What works for *us*. Not the group. Not anyone on top of that. Us. That means that how you feel in our relationship is extremely important to you and I'll welcome any feedback as long as I feel it will make you relaxed, pleased and happy, as well as appreciative. Expect that treatment without even asking for it properly though and you can count on me bending over backwards to make sure you do *NOT* get what you want.

    For the record, I do believe that Fi-users should learn some Fe, especially when in a group. But I find it too tiresome to keep it up when it's just us. Plz don't expect me to follow the entire social ettiquette, when I just want us to get along as I feel that the social rules are not flexible enough to attend to our needs. If those *are* your needs...tell me. I'll gladly incorporate them to make you comfortable. BUT You *have* to tell me. I'm not psychic
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  8. #508
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    To me, there's only the personal contract, tailored especially to who you are and who I am. What works for *us*. Not the group. Not anyone on top of that. Us.
    This rewinds well to my metaphor on the journey.

    When I offer to take someone's hand, it's to go on this journey together, with that person, and establish deeper and deeper rapport.

    I felt like Jen was ready, that we could do that. I hope to get closer to that point with fidelia. I am putting these thoughts in the public venue because I am hoping to fully explain my goals in this thread.

    It's to get past all of the group expectations and form a personal bond that in and of itself would help someone understand the nuances of Fi-ness. Then, in knowing and trusting me, see those patterns reverberate out in real life to see better and better what Fi is. After all, I am only one person, and my reality doesn't account for all the unique people in the world.

    But if one doesn't agree with the fundamental premise, doesn't agree right from the start that an Fi worldview is as valid as an Fe one, there are too many road-blocks in the way for this to happen.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #509
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I felt like Jen was ready, that we could do that....
    *honks horn loudly*
    Hey, how long are you gonna stay here gabbing before we go somewhere??

    ...And can you grab a few sodas on your way out (diet) and a pack of Corn Nuts? Thanks!

    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #510
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I'll be over in a minute!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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