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  1. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But I guess I feel that in general that Fe users don't recognize the extent, the massive extent of the risk Fi users take in engaging them on an Fi level. And I do appreciate that Fe users do have to push out of their comfort zone to respond to Fi users.
    May I ask what the risk is? Loss of identity?

  2. #492
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    You question-pepperer!

    I guess I would say it's like standing naked in front of a bunch of bystanders, and feeling under scrutiny. I fear the rejection that might await me.

    (Although my husband has no complaints ... )
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #493
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Phase 1: facial representation of emotion.

    There are 6 universal human emotions which can be recognized across cultures around the world.
    -happy
    -angry
    -sad
    -surprised
    -afraid
    -disgusted/contempt

    Babies can only recognize the first three. The next two take a while to develop, and even older children (pre-puberty) often read contempt as anger.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  4. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You question-pepperer!

    I guess I would say it's like standing naked in front of a bunch of bystanders, and feeling under scrutiny. I fear the rejection that might await me.

    (Although my husband has no complaints ... )
    That ain't no thang!

    Rejection will toughen you up! :workout:

  5. #495
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ^ Yeah, I analyze like crazy also.

    This part below also sounds like enneagram 9 Fi much more than e4 Fi....
    I feel it is almost opposite for me as a 4w5 - I tend to make decisions geared towards maintaining authenticity, which can make me put them off so as not to disrupt external harmony needlessly.

    I've also thought of the basic concept of Fi not seeking to affect or be affected, but to simply gauge according to its inner ideal and react when necessary, or on the occasions when something hits on an ideal (positively or negatively).
    Ah that's what it is, the descriptions seemed somewhat murky and there did seem to be a missed step in interpretation too. Thanks for saying. And yes to ideals reactivity when needed.

  6. #496
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yeah but you vented to someone you weren't close to and she's going to have her own perception of the situation. I sometimes wonder if certain Ts (not Fe or Fi users) presume that Fs should just know what they're thinking or feeling, and so then get annoyed when we're wrong in our perceptions.
    Yes, I think it's for a lot of different reasons, not necessarily an Fi/Fe one.

    I mean, it was nice of this girl to listen to you vent, but then you turn around and get annoyed that she misunderstood your frustration as anger and call her "not tremendously secure." I mean...
    Well, my immediate impression was that Tallulah had already decided she was tremendously insecure because of lots of other reasons, not because of this particular event, and so she was adding her opinion in order to frame this particular situation.

    EDIT: In fact, I think humans ...just fucking humans...do this all of the time. We see things through our own context and expect the other person to JUST KNOW. What is that? That isn't an Fi vs. Fe thing. I don't even know that it's a T vs. F thing.
    Word.

    It's just what being human is. The line between what is just our opinion/perspective and what is universal perception reality is sometimes very muddy, and especially between different people. Some people are more aware of it, some less so, but we all assume some level of our experience to be universal for everyone. So maturity to me is more the flexibility to respond to challenges to our perspective with openness, while knowing when to stand firm. None of us are perfect at this.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #497
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I do know there have been times when an Fi user has read me as being really angry when I wasn't internally feeling anger at all--frustration, yes, but not anger. I know when I'm feeling anger.
    ...
    Now that I'm typing all this out, it might be that I mostly get irritated by people who aren't close to me trying to tell me how I feel.
    I don't understand why you guys get so worked up about being "misread".
    Why does it even matter if there is a disparity between what you feel and how you make others feel? Why does that make you irritated? It's irrational, when you think about it. Other people hold incorrect beliefs all the time - you don't get worked up about that. Why not just say, "Hey, guess what? You're wrong about that" and move on if you don't want to get into a discussion. (The very fact that you DO get worked up, when you could laugh it off or ignore it, should be revealing in itself.)

    But if you want to understand then accept it as a valid piece of data. Accept that your actions have consequences, that despite what you might be feeling, your way of acting or way of speaking has made the other person feel something - and that that piece of data is every bit as important as what your feelings are telling you.

    I'm not suggesting you do this, Tallulah, but Extraverted feelers have a way of imposing their emotions on others. They emo dump, and then they feel fine, it's "out there", "off their chests", etc, etc. I know people who express themselves in ways that SCREAM anger to me - all the while denying feeling angry at all. Actually, what they are doing is making ME feel their anger (which they are repressing). Maybe you don't accept that, but it's widely accepted in psychoanalytic circles (i.e. transference/counter-transference/projective identification).

    Such people fail to comprehend the toxic effects of offloading their feelings onto others. I seldom express strong emotion in the presence of others and try to be as restrained as possible, not because I feel nothing - like the stereotypical INTP robot - but because I'm hyperaware of polluting other people with my own emotional state (of course I don't always succeed). But I don't seem to get that consideration from strong Fe types. I can get really stressed, even physically ill around them when they're emoting at me. I feel like I'm having to dissipate all this toxic energy and I don't know what to do with it. I know other Fi users who feel similarly. It's damned exhausting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #498
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    angry >>>>> annoyed
    Anger is a spectrum emotion that expresses from one end, inner frustration to the other end, flat out screaming frothing rage.

    Would it be more helpful if someone tried to pin down the exact emotion? The exact nuance?

    Or if I said - "I might be wrong, but is something is bothering you?" ... would that be a way of asking that's less contentious? Because it's more generic?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #499
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Probably the last one is the safest. Although I'd even take someone trying to pinpoint it and describe it more precisely over someone saying I seemed "angry".

    Oh and PB, what post were your questions in? I'm trying to catch up on a few pages I missed yesterday. Didn't mean to miss them.

  10. #500
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Anger is a spectrum emotion that expresses from one end, inner frustration to the other end, flat out screaming frothing rage.

    Would it be more helpful if someone tried to pin down the exact emotion? The exact nuance?

    Or if I said - "I might be wrong, but is something is bothering you?" ... would that be a way of asking that's less contentious? Because it's more generic?
    I would consider it a T thing more than some conflict between F functions here, if I had to consider it anything. If T is being precise, it's trying to label/describe the emotion with nuance, so if someone misses big-time on the nuance it just tends to add to the frustration and leaves one feeling misunderstood in addition to be falsely labeled/accused.

    T also tries to treat the emotion as an object rather than something intrinsic to the person, but the style of comment as "Are you angry?" starts to merge
    the person with their emotion.

    "Frustrated" is probably a safer word to use than "angry."

    And saying things like, "I feel right now like you're <emotion>" or "I'm sensing frustration, is this right, and can you tell me what's wrong?" would probably be better approaches... anything that suggests you are just describing what you perceive/feel but that it might not be accurate and you want the other person to confirm or explain.

    I'm also led back into considering language and how emotions/inflection gets used. In the US, inflection is often used to convey emotion; however, in a language like Cantonese, different inflections for the same phoenetics actually means different words, and variations in pitch and tone don't convey emotion at all, but meaning.

    Likewise, in this discussion: Some people use emotion cues to convey information rather than as a direct expression of a feeling state. It's like emotions are being used as a language to express the weight of the idea rather than being used as a descriptor of internal emotional state. The guy who is pounding on the podium in order to emphasize points in his speech might sound like he's angry, but he might just consciously be using that as a way to emphasize his point because he believes it that strongly but doesn't necessarily feel that emotion internally at the time.

    And I'm going to tie this back into some of the earlier comments about Fi -- I sometimes have found "passion" threatening because I perceived it as personally directed; but once I got the idea that the passion in the comments didn't mean "Shut up because I feel so strongly about things" or could result in some sort of unpredictable relational/physical violence, and that the sparring was okay even if it had emotional tones to it, it helped me to engage.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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