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  1. #41
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Sorry,that was sloppy of me. I believe that Fi has the same shades of grey and need for precision that Fe lacks.

  2. #42
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    This thread is highly fascinating to me. I think Z Buck may really be onto something with the idea of bringing the thinking functions into the explanation mix. When I have a clash with an Fi user, it is usually because I feel like they're forcing their personal values/feelings onto the group, and it's the no-nonsense Te style that is really raising my Fe hackles rather than the Fi that they're expressing most of the time.

    I've also had a few instances where it felt like a Fi/Te user was convinced that it was imperative that I understand their feelings about a certain matter when it wouldn't change the situation at all, and sometimes would complicate it unnecessarily. I kind of feel like peoples' individual feelings are sometimes irrelevant when considering the greater good. I am also, as a pretty strong Fe user, guilty of being annoyed when a Fi user uses the "I didn't mean to" card. There's a feeling on my part of, "but you've been in similar situations before that didn't work out so well, right? Didn't you learn from that?"

    I would really like to hear more about the "cave" thing Usehername was talking about. Can anyone provide a description of what Fi feels like to them? Maybe an example? Fi is so foreign to me.
    Something Witty

  3. #43
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yep, I've concluded that it's not Fi alone that creates friction, but Fi/Te and I would wager it would be the Fe/Ti that rubs them the wrong way sometimes. I think Umlauu was helpful in me seeing how the two are connected.

  4. #44
    Senior Member tortoise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Fidelia, apparently you and I are the only ones who don't have more exciting plans on this Saturday afternoon. It's certainly been quiet on the boards today.
    It's Sunday afternoon here! I try to have a screen break on Sundays ...

    This is intriguing and I need to think about it some more.

  5. #45
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    And the other half of my response to op:

    [*]How Were Others Inconvenienced?: Even though Anita totally overreacted, it was unfair to not read her emails. Maybe she wrote me to apologize. Maybe not. But by shutting her out, I was not even giving her the opportunity to express herself which wasn't fair to her. As for the Te bitchslap... well... Was I correct in what I said during my Te bitchslap? Yes. But sometimes when you speak the truth, a whisper is more effective than a howl. The more true it was, the more hurtful to hear. When push came to shove, I didn't give a damn about breaking social niceties, because all that mattered to me was speaking the truth. This must have caused this person much distress and anxiety.
    I definitely always care about breaking social niceties- but because doing so always runs the risk of having more conflict to deal with. In order to think clearly, I try to keep things as civil as possible. I won’t lie- but I don’t always volunteer my entire opinion of events that have transpired before giving myself a chance to sort through them, possibly collect information about the other side’s point of view. The truth is equally important to me, but since it’s rare- in instances where there’s a serious divide between my point of view and the other persons- that both of us will agree on a ‘truth’, I only share it completely where it is asked for and/or I believe the other person is capable of considering it before dismissing it completely. I don’t see the point in telling someone something if they will only perceive it as some hurtful attack (motivated by emo retaliation, rather than thoughtful reflection)- regardless of how ‘true’ it seems to me. I know what seems true, and it’s enough to have some kind of handle on it for myself. And more often than not, I feel compelled to try to phrase what I’m saying in the least accusatory way possible (whilst still firmly adhering to what I believe to be true) – again, to keep inflammatory reactions at a minimum. It’s always important to me that conflict remain civil and as respectful as is possible.

    What goes wrong: My need for things to stay on a civil basis- in order to think clearly and have any chance at extraverting any thoughts I’m having about the conflict- runs the risk of oppressing someone’s Fi as much as their overzealous Te oppresses my Ti? It’s perceived as constraining, anyway, it seems- though it truly is constraining for me to interact in a (albeit temporary) uncivil manner.

    I really am curious about this. I really hate when I feel backed into a corner by someone’s Te, without being given the chance to defend myself because they’re coming on like gangbusters. I’ve said this several times before, but it really feels like Te users argue like cavemen trying to beat other people over the head with their opinions until the other side concedes from sheer exhaustion. It’s rather unsettling to me to think I’m actually doing this to someone myself (with Fe). I’d love to hear someone explain specifically how a Fe user could ‘back off’ and allow for Fi to breathe.

    [*]Comments: It’s taken a lot of humble pie for me to admit that this was my Fi wreaking havoc. As I’ve become more aware of my Fi, I’ve also become aware of the trouble it can cause. I do have choices other than letting my Fi drive my behavior in this manner. For example, I might have given my Fi a chance to heal a bit and then gone and talked to this person or read their emails. Instead, I protected my Fi. And that became the driving force behind my behavior. This served my Fi’s agenda, but I don’t think this was the best for Esoteric Wench in the long run.[/LIST]
    I really don’t know what to do with this^ one.

    But back to the above point I was trying to make, the experience of butting heads with a Te user- to me- is like hearing: “Me RIGHT! You WRONG!” And hearing it over and over again. It’s like- instead of listening and considering what I’ve said- they just wait until I’m done talking so they can reiterate the same thing they were saying all along. This was a major issue with my xNTJ ex-husband. And please realize- I’m not saying this is some end all truth of every single experience I have with Te users, but there’s definitely a pattern of it.

    Something that’s immeasurably helpful is when I see any amount of effort being put into understanding whatever argument I present. Because I refuse to play the ‘try to win entitlement to TRUTH through the sheer force of will, rather than civil discourse’ game. If someone isn’t pausing to even consider what I say before trying to argue it’s wrong, then I stop even trying to communicate.

    So what does this Fe monster look like to Fi? What- as specifically as possible- makes Fi feel oppressed by Fe? I’m having a hard time imagining it. The first thing that comes to mind is: “Me polite. You rude.” But, for obvious reasons, that doesn’t make much sense.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  6. #46
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Although I have participated somewhat in these threads in the past, it is interesting to me to note that it's the aux's who get really involved in trying to understand the dynamic.

    I wonder why?
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Maybe with Te it's that outcome, (not the process getting there or the reasoning behind the outcome) is what matters most. Don't know.
    actually, it's more like i have to DO Te for Te to work. just like Fe. i can't do it in my head. i need to process through it. i internally know what Fi thinks, but to find out what i think logically, i need to get it out. process it. that's what writing does for me and that's why i loooove these forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think the issue is that
    1) You need to figure out why your concern should matter to the other person if it's going to be addressed properly.
    2) You need to keep the other person from losing face, by not embarrassing them unnecessarily or addressing the problem publicly.
    3) Offer a solution that you think would work more as effectively.
    i COMPLETELY agree with #s 1 and 3.

    as for 2 - in my opinion, looking at PB's situation, i think it was great for her to go public with it. because ethically, they were doing something that, in my opinion, needs consequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Sometimes we will "shoot ourselves in the foot" I guess, for the things that matter. Depending on the particular Fi user or the particular situation, it can be done with sophisticated subtle nuance or a lack of tact and appreciation of all of the politics involved.
    yeah. it's shooting ourselves in the foot to make a more important point that would not be made so clearly if gone about in a nice, harmonious fashion. i believe that all people are fundamentally good people with hopes and dreams and they just get a little off track. but sometimes, they get really off track, and a big shock is needed to get people to see what's really important again. if it doesn't happen, the same thing is likely to occur again and again and again. sometimes there needs to be a paradigm shift.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I've also had a few instances where it felt like a Fi/Te user was convinced that it was imperative that I understand their feelings about a certain matter when it wouldn't change the situation at all, and sometimes would complicate it unnecessarily. I kind of feel like peoples' individual feelings are sometimes irrelevant when considering the greater good. I am also, as a pretty strong Fe user, guilty of being annoyed when a Fi user uses the "I didn't mean to" card. There's a feeling on my part of, "but you've been in similar situations before that didn't work out so well, right? Didn't you learn from that?"
    haha, see, i read this as so pretentious, even though i know you don't mean it to sound that way. i have a similar confusion towards Fe/Ti. Ti always sounds condescending to me, which can be a good deal of the problem.

    so, i actually don't understand the lack of urgency - if you don't say some things at a certain time, the moment is lost. you will not have that same opportunity to make the point that you have now. and what if it is truly important? much better to err on the side of saying something than nothing. to err on the side of driving your point in too much than to never say it at all. you only have one life... you only have this moment once...

    and life is complex; there is always more to learn; i never learn something that "complicates unnecessarily." i don't understand that feeling (unless we're talking about a powerpoint or something.)

    i also sometimes feel like the greater good is irrelevant when considering a single individual's feelings, because the "greater" is made of individuals. believing that one individual does not matter is the same as saying all individuals don't matter. to discredit Fi is to lose the whole basis for Fe.

    and finally - as to "didn't you know that was going to turn out badly" - no. haha. not really. i don't have great Ni to tell me it's likely, and i don't have great Si to line up how much this is like past situations. i don't even have great Ti to point out that it's illogical. but that's why i need to talk about what happened afterwards, if there's a problem. i need to Te-out things so i can understand the logical progression of events.

    also... i don't understand why Fe/Ti is generally rather slow to forgive. i am quick to forgive once i understand what the other person was thinking. once our intimacy is reestablished. the two Fe doms i'm very close with and occasionally quarrel with are much slower to be willing to be okay with me again. it seems cruel and unnecessary, and it's been described to me as "punishment". i see that as shitty. if you (hypothetical you. not you you.) understand my motives, why do you need to punish me? obviously, if we fought, i already know something went wrong. what makes you think it's a great idea to shut me out on top of it? if you think i'm so wrong, can't you help me see rightly instead?

  7. #47
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    haha, see, i read this as so pretentious, even though i know you don't mean it to sound that way. i have a similar confusion towards Fe/Ti. Ti always sounds condescending to me, which can be a good deal of the problem.
    Okay, this is so fascinating! Because I almost said in my previous post that I sometimes feel like Fi/Te is pretentious because it presumes everyone in the world wants to hear about your personal feelings. (And I'm saying this now not as a jab or anything, just as an aside because Fi/Te and Fe/Te obviously misunderstand each other so completely!) I will often have personal feelings that I may sublimate if I don't think they're relevant or helpful to the decision at hand.

    so, i actually don't understand the lack of urgency - if you don't say some things at a certain time, the moment is lost. you will not have that same opportunity to make the point that you have now. and what if it is truly important? much better to err on the side of saying something than nothing. to err on the side of driving your point in too much than to never say it at all. you only have one life... you only have this moment once...

    and life is complex; there is always more to learn; i never learn something that "complicates unnecessarily." i don't understand that feeling (unless we're talking about a powerpoint or something.)
    I guess Ti just weighs the consequences, maybe, to see whether it would make a difference? (I do admit that I let Ti have too tight a rein sometimes as a predictor, when I should maybe just see what happens.)

    As a personal example, I saw this in action when my INTJ guitar teacher, with whom I'd had a professional-only relationship, confessed his undying love when I was about to move out of town for a new job. Deep down he knew it wouldn't change anything, and I'd never given him any sign that I was interested. But in his mind, it was something he needed to get off his chest. In my mind, I kind of felt like he should have kept it to himself rather than making me reject him, and forever changing our relationship. This wasn't a "hey, I like you, and if you like me, cool, but if not, I understand." this was a big, emo, "you complete me" type thing that I didn't know how to deal with, having come out of nowhere. Maybe that makes me sound cold hearted, I don't know. But I do know it kind of made me feel weird and awkward about him, and I wish he hadn't crossed the line. But for him, I guess he wouldn't have been able to live with himself if he hadn't.

    i also sometimes feel like the greater good is irrelevant when considering a single individual's feelings, because the "greater" is made of individuals. believing that one individual does not matter is the same as saying all individuals don't matter. to discredit Fi is to lose the whole basis for Fe.
    This is a good point. I do feel like lots of times, though, Fe is the average of Fi. Everyone gets their say, and then you sort through the opinions and decide what's best for everyone. But after a certain point, one person's opinion or comfort or what have you can't trump what's best for everyone, can it? I wish I could think of a good example right now. I know it's annoying to have to talk in generalities.

    and finally - as to "didn't you know that was going to turn out badly" - no. haha. not really. i don't have great Ni to tell me it's likely, and i don't have great Si to line up how much this is like past situations. i don't even have great Ti to point out that it's illogical. but that's why i need to talk about what happened afterwards, if there's a problem. i need to Te-out things so i can understand the logical progression of events.
    This is very illuminating--thank you! I think a lot of Fe users just think that Fi people ARE aware, but are letting the need to express personal feelings override the consequences. Kind of a "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" type thing. We (Fe) are probably assigning blame where there shouldn't be any.

    also... i don't understand why Fe/Ti is generally rather slow to forgive. i am quick to forgive once i understand what the other person was thinking. once our intimacy is reestablished. the two Fe doms i'm very close with and occasionally quarrel with are much slower to be willing to be okay with me again. it seems cruel and unnecessary, and it's been described to me as "punishment". i see that as shitty. if you (hypothetical you. not you you.) understand my motives, why do you need to punish me? obviously, if we fought, i already know something went wrong. what makes you think it's a great idea to shut me out on top of it? if you think i'm so wrong, can't you help me see rightly instead?
    Well, from my perspective, I'd never call it punishment, but if I feel like I've been trampled on, I need to retreat to process it, and to lick my wounds, and to remind myself that the person is my friend and they probably weren't trying to offend. I think with Fe, we assume everyone knows the unspoken social "rules," and that if they don't follow them, that it's on purpose. So we wonder what that means--do they not respect us? Why didn't they hold up their end of the bargain? We have to process those wounded feelings and then make ourselves get over it.

    Thank you for your responses--this is really helpful.
    Something Witty

  8. #48
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    When you have a problem in public with one of your friends, you do not start yelling and crying and screaming for everyone to hear. It needlessly involves others who were not part of the original dispute. That usually ends up unproductively and badly for everyone involved. If a stranger intervenes, they are likely to be attacked by both of the parties involved. If they don't intervene, they are needlessly annoyed or their business is hampered by someone elses petty selfishness. The onlookers have no power to enact a solution, so it is not fair to involve them.

    If you are upset with the way your teacher runs a class, you can be assured that you will not get results by challenging them publicly. All you do is assure them that you don't like them, possibly make their job more difficult by turning others against them and sometimes it is not appropriate or productive to publicly share the information that informs their decision-making. You also make them feel like you are ambushing them and they are not emotionally or mentally prepared so will come off looking badly. It's like coming up behind someone for a fight rather than challenging them head on. If you approach them privately, they may give you more information to give you a different perspective. They may explain why they have not chosen to take the route you see fit. You may also gain a better understanding of them and why they act the way they do. In all cases, you still have the option of public embarrassment in the name of full disclosure later. I actually think that doing things in public inhibits full disclosure sometimes, rather than enhancing it. That said, I agree that there has to be accountability. That's why everyone has a boss that you can go to if you get nowhere with the person. I lived in a community for five years that didn't have newspapers to report crime or corruption. I agree that this was detrimental. However, you might agree that publishing something in a newspaper without checking the facts or getting the story from several people first privately might be unethical.

    I guess I think that sometimes, in the name of promoting peacemaking, people actually exacerbate the situation by choosing the wrong venue to deal with it.
    Err...I have problems with just that. I don't always stop and think, I just react. Don't get me wrong, I'm not yelling and screaming....but I think I've just had an insight into why I'm labelled a trouble maker some times (especially when I'm on a crusade.)
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  9. #49
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Letting random strangers that I helped actually believe I was an angel.. That's happened twice.

    It's probably not good if I can't just outright tell people they're crazy.

    That's probably in the humorous area. I think Fe goes awry when I'm too agreeable, doting even, and then later find myself being taken advantage of or losing my place in the relationship. I then strip everything from them, become overly assertive in one fell swoop, instead of being healthily/incrementally assertive to begin with.

  10. #50
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Extraverted Feeling (Fe) - ...In its shadow aspect, extraverted feeling tends to discriminate against feelings that are less easy to identify with, and therefore less socially acceptable. The result is that extraverted feeling tends to ignore or harshly judge emotional needs that do not validate collective norms. This kind of response can lead to forms of bullying and prejudice, as majority values are emphasized at the expense of other, more individual values.
    Introverted Feeling (Fi)
    - In its shadow aspect, introverted feeling becomes rageful, anxious, and sullen. It may withdraw all support for attitudes it has decided are simply wrong, even at the risk of rupturing relationship and agreed-upon standards of fellow-feeling.
    I take issue with the description of these as "shadow" expressions. I see Fe/Fi doms do this stuff all the time so it's misleading to talk of it in those terms.
    It's these negative aspects of Fe/Fi that lead to conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    My Fi gets me into righteous trouble regularly.
    Righteous trouble is teh best kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Isn't it possible Peacebaby to still speak up, but to go about it in a different way? For example, I notice that many of the Fi users on here when they have a problem choose the most public possible way to proclaim it, without checking first to see that they have all the information, or seeing if it could be resolved privately. If the big guns need to be brought in then, you can keep going up the ladder?

    I think the issue is that
    1) You need to figure out why your concern should matter to the other person if it's going to be addressed properly.
    2) You need to keep the other person from losing face, by not embarrassing them unnecessarily or addressing the problem publicly.
    3) Offer a solution that you think would work more as effectively.

    Just by taking these factors into account, you may be more likely to achieve the intended result, with better outcomes for everyone. You may have gotten to keep your job, the staff would have been safer, and the boss might even have thanked you for seeing an issue that could come back to bite them legally, inconvenience them, or you may have saved them a lot of trouble in figuring out what to do instead. Most people aren't out to do the wrong thing. They just are going to get their backs up if they feel that you as their employee are making them look bad publicly.

    (I'm not saying this about you specifically. It's just a common Fi issue I see coming up in staff meetings etc. If they had spun their issue a slightly different way, the results would have been much better for everyone involved. They weren't wrong to speak up, but they didn't end up getting heard because of the way they went about it). I'd like to understand this better.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It seems to me you are making assumptions that suggest I lack a certain ... tact and diplomacy.
    Yes. This annoys me. The presumption is that, since the group rejected you, you must have been at fault. I see this with Fe users all the time. It's so narrow-minded. It's the essence of mob mentality. It's quite clear to me that you did the right thing, and, actually, the way you expressed yourself really shouldn't have made a difference - unless you were completely disrespectful and offensive, and even then, the PRINCIPLE is what counts. Is the situation dangerous or not? Do we need to take action to avoid a health and safety issue or not? The principle is true no matter the mode of expression. Why do Fe users struggle with this? It's seems so superficial to me to get bogged down with the details of delivery and miss the message. I give you the benefit of the doubt because I know that boat-rockers are very often motivated by integrity and honour and that commercial organisations most often are not. But fidelia gives you a lecture about what you (probably) did wrong. After you got fired! This is what pisses me off most about Fe. It's so holier-than-thou and at the same time seems to have no sense of integrity. Just baffling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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