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  1. #471
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    So say a person doesn't have malicious intentions or motivations, but their actions are causing difficulties for you.

    How do you communicate in a way that will not hurt them unduly, that though you do not attribute bad intentions to them, that the behaviors that are causing difficulties have to change?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #472
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I can, however, think of many, many times when I TOOK THINGS PERSONALLY that I shouldn't have i.e. mistaking someone's neutral behavior for anger or dislike or whatever. It's generally when I like or love that person and desire their approval and/or love. It's created out of my own sense of insecurity, fears, etc. not any arrogant assumption that I know what others are feeling.
    I write research papers in my work and it gets reviewed anonymously. And when I get something critical of what I write, I tend to "read between the lines" and think the reviewer doesn't like me and is calling me an idiot, when they are really trying to help me improve my paper.

    Well, ok, maybe they do think I'm an idiot
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  3. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So say a person doesn't have malicious intentions or motivations, but their actions are causing difficulties for you.

    How do you communicate in a way that will not hurt them unduly, that though you do not attribute bad intentions to them, that the behaviors that are causing difficulties have to change?
    I don't know. If you figure it out, please tell me.

  4. #474
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    NFPs? Anyone? This is I think the crux of the issue for us Fe users. I get the sense that just expressing that they are valuable to me as a person, but their behaviour is impacting me or others negatively might still have a lot more read into it than I intend or may feel like I am telling them to act inauthentically or am being stifling/bossy.

  5. #475
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So say a person doesn't have malicious intentions or motivations, but their actions are causing difficulties for you.

    How do you communicate in a way that will not hurt them unduly, that though you do not attribute bad intentions to them, that the behaviors that are causing difficulties have to change?
    I think some of this comes down to wording....basic concepts like using "I" statements and focusing on explaining your own feelings instead of placing blame.

    Referring back to my massive post some pages back, it can be difficult to explain Fi feelings in a way so that other people will accept them as valid. It helps if the other person puts aside preconceptions of how most people "feel" and why they feel that way.


    EDIT: I thought this was addressing Fi-users' method of communicating....funny how it works both ways :P
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    NFPs? Anyone? This is I think the crux of the issue for us Fe users. I get the sense that just expressing that they are valuable to me as a person, but their behaviour is impacting me or others negatively might still have a lot more read into it than I intend or may feel like I am telling them to act inauthentically or am being stifling/bossy.
    Is this really an Fi/Fe issue always, though? Because I don't think it is. I know IxFJs who know exactly how to correct a situation where I took something personally as smoothly as anyone could possibly do. Depends on the person. Depends on the relationship to the other person. Depends on so many little things...

  7. #477
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Well, while I was typing this big long thing out, another conversation has cropped up. This is in response to the marm/MacGuffin thing a few posts back:

    I do know there have been times when an Fi user has read me as being really angry when I wasn't internally feeling anger at all--frustration, yes, but not anger. I know when I'm feeling anger. But I may have been speaking more animatedly and possibly forcibly when I'm frustrated and trying to talk my way into understanding. That frustration is almost never expressed to the person I'm frustrated with--because I'm still at the point where I don't really know how I feel about something, and I'm trying to make sense of it. (Talking to the person involved would only cloud my perceptions.) But it's not anger. Internally, it's often something like calm but confused. Maybe sometimes hurt by another party.

    I remember venting like that to an xNFP who was not a tremendously close friend, but who was kind of in my "circle" at the time, and she told one of our mutual friends later that I was "just so angry," and she didn't know how to calm me down. It's situations like these that confirm my desire to vent with someone who does understand my emotional state in times like these, and won't try to insist I'm angry when I'm not. Someone who will listen to my words instead of trying to read my emotional state. I was so far from angry in that situation it wasn't even funny. But this chick was also not a tremendously secure person, anyway. But that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

    When I'm feeling anger and it's directed at you, you will know it. I have a lot less of a filter, a lot less of a "give a damn" and a diminished ability to express myself in a way that makes sense. :-P The last time I remember being really angry at someone, it was at an old roommate. I kind of let loose on her, then immediately left the house and didn't come back for the whole weekend. I didn't even want to look at her. But that was a very extreme situation, and she was not a close friend at all.

    Now that I'm typing all this out, it might be that I mostly get irritated by people who aren't close to me trying to tell me how I feel. I will cut close friends some slack on that account--though I might tell them I don't want to talk about it if I don't feel like doing an emotional biopsy at the moment.
    Something Witty

  8. #478
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I take things personally all the time and think I must have done something to make someone unhappy with me when it generally ends up having nothing to do with me. IOW, I can pick up on the vibe, but not necesarily interpret the cause of the vibe.

    Overall, though, I identify with Fe users pretty strongly, whatever that means.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I remember venting like that to an xNFP who was not a tremendously close friend, but who was kind of in my "circle" at the time, and she told one of our mutual friends later that I was "just so angry," and she didn't know how to calm me down. It's situations like these that confirm my desire to vent with someone who does understand my emotional state in times like these, and won't try to insist I'm angry when I'm not. Someone who will listen to my words instead of trying to read my emotional state. I was so far from angry in that situation it wasn't even funny. But this chick was also not a tremendously secure person, anyway. But that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
    Yeah but you vented to someone you weren't close to and she's going to have her own perception of the situation. I sometimes wonder if certain Ts (not Fe or Fi users) presume that Fs should just know what they're thinking or feeling, and so then get annoyed when we're wrong in our perceptions.

    I mean, it was nice of this girl to listen to you vent, but then you turn around and get annoyed that she misunderstood your frustration as anger and call her "not tremendously secure." I mean...

    EDIT: In fact, I think humans ...just fucking humans...do this all of the time. We see things through our own context and expect the other person to JUST KNOW.

    What is that? That isn't an Fi vs. Fe thing. I don't even know that it's a T vs. F thing.

  10. #480
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yeah but you vented to someone you weren't close to and she's going to have her own perception of the situation. I sometimes wonder if certain Ts (not Fe or Fi users) presume that Fs should just know what they're thinking or feeling, and so then get annoyed when we're wrong in our perceptions.

    I mean, it was nice of this girl to listen to you vent, but then you turn around and get annoyed that she misunderstood your frustration as anger and call her "not tremendously secure." I mean...

    EDIT: In fact, I think humans ...just fucking humans...do this all of the time. We see things through our own context and expect the other person to JUST KNOW.

    What is that? That isn't an Fi vs. Fe thing. I don't even know that it's a T vs. F thing.
    Well, the "not tremendously secure" comment wasn't meant as a response to how she reacted. That came from interactions with her that had appeared before and continued a long time after that. The reason I said that at all was to indicate that I was not trying to paint that situation as a typical xNFP thing, and maybe it had something to do with her projecting her own insecurities.

    But obviously the venting to her was a mistake. Looking back, I think I had sensed she wanted to have a closer friendship, so I was confiding in her to maybe facilitate that, rather than staying at a polite, cordial level. I should have probably read the situation better and just vented to a closer friend.

    I don't know if I had an expectation of her, other than to just listen, like I would when a friend was upset. I didn't expect stroking or validation or agreement. This is why it takes me a while to get to know people.

    But it's true that maybe we HOPE that people will just know, and are disappointed when they don't, or when the reaction we get is so different from what we were anticipating.
    Something Witty

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