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  1. #451
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Personally, I think this thread has been helpful. I'd agree that we're never going to understand foreign perspectives perfectly... and as we get closer sometimes the chasm of understanding seems wider. Still, even cognitive understanding at a remove is helpful for having a model for dealing with misunderstandings as they arise.

    As far as MacGuffin's issue with "how do you get the Fi-er to back off when they mistakenly think you feel X?" Let's look at it from each perspective.

    The Fi-er

    You, the Fi-er, have perceived emotion X (correctly or incorrectly) from the other party. The other party has told the you that you are mistaken. Ignoring minor misidentifications (target or minor feeling variation), there are three main options:

    • The person is not feeling X on any level
    • The person is feeling X and doesn't want to talk about it
    • The person is feeling X, but isn't aware of it

    So, in the context of the interaction I think it doesn't matter in practice (for you, the Fi-er) which of the above is true. You've already let them know they seem to be feeling X. Just pushing anyway is more likely to make the other person angry and defensive than anything else, especially if you are correct. So, saying something like (depending on the nature of the relationship) "okay, I'm sorry I'm picking up X from you mistakenly... I'll try to keep in mind you are not feeling X, but if I slip up or need reassurance that's the case, I hope you won't mind."

    That way they know that you are taking their evaluation of their mental state seriously. Meanwhile, you can make a mental note and try to analyze why you think they were feeling X. It's possible it's just mannerisms or interaction style. It's also possible years later they will say, "I was so angry back then and so unaware of it!" Unless you are their therapist, it's not your job to get them to acknowledge their emotions—assuming you are correct in the first place. Some people have whole defensive systems build up around denying their anger or fear (for example)... forcing acknowledgement without laying a lot of groundwork first is likely to be bad for all parties concerned. And, again, you could be wrong.

    The Other Party

    So, you are the other party and this obnoxious Fi-er has just tried to tell you how you feel (like they'd know?!?). You are certain they are wrong, so how to get them to back off and leave you the hell alone...

    Perhaps saying something on the order of, "I'm honestly, to the best of my knowledge, not experiencing X. If there's something I'm doing that is sending out that message, let me know so I can either try to explain or modify that behavior. Meanwhile, let's get back to doing [whatever you were doing before]. If you need a reassurance or reminder that I'm not actually feeling X (particularly at you), let me know."

    So you've communicated that you understand that are perceiving something (something that isn't true, in this case), that it may be an ongoing irritant for them, and that you'd rather get back to whatever you were doing before. If they keep pushing, you can respond appropriately at that point, perhaps by pointing out how insulting they would find it if someone kept insisting they were feeling something they weren't feeling. (As Fi-ers, that'll throw 'em for a loop.)

    Meanwhile, if you get the same feedback from multiple people ("you seem awfully angry"), keep that in mind. Maybe it's just your mannerisms or a specific behavior you could adjust (then you wouldn't have to deal with misreadings from obnoxious Fi-ers)... or it's not utterly impossible they are right on some level. That feedback is a data point (right or wrong) so keep your eyes open to see if a pattern emerges. If the only pattern that emerges is that Fi-ers are whacked... there's some truth in that, too.

  2. #452
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath View Post
    The more the functions instinctively repel one another, the more permanent and irreparable our typological condition seems. I wonder if I'm alone entertaining that idea... (I probably am)
    Probably not, although I think maybe the feelings of futility are being driven by focusing SO much on the cog functions as the determining factor.

    I sort of dropped the thread because I'm tired, but also because I don't like deconstructing everything to functions so much... We're not functions, we're people. Sometimes it's worthwhile to examine a particular function (just like the science method of isolating something in order to examine a smaller and more management scenario), but the funny thing is that I think personal choice and intent, along with a lack of hubris, impacts ability to relate... and that is not confined to type.

    Two of the the most important people in my life are Fi-intensive (one in primary, one in tertiary but very strong), and while we've had our conflicts, we just have commitments to each other as people... and one thing that plays a large role into things is just trusting motivations or making a choice to trust motivations even if it's not clear at the time, or making a choice to stay committed to our relationship(s) regardless, assuming we can work through things.

    Sometimes we butt heads... and admittedly, they both bitch to me about far more stringent users of the social-network approach to life... but I've always been able to communicate. I also have a number of Fi people here who I deal with just fine and who feel close too. It's only a few that I have issues with... and type might not be the primary problem.

    I think intellectualizing things too much increased the distance and confuses the matter. The questions really align more like this: (1) Do I trust them, instinctively? (2) Do I choose to trust them even if I'm not sure? (3) Do I accept that maybe not everything I feel and perceive is accurate, AKA "I'm Just a Bozo on this Bus too" (4) Do I believe I can extricate myself from a situation where I'm mistakenly trusted someone, so I can afford to take the risk? (5) Is it WORTH taking a risk on people or is that too dangerous for me?

    Stuff like that.

    I really hate getting into fatalistic mindsets, although I'm capable of it and am struggling right now with a few other relationships (interesting, more of them Fe people) where the rift seems entrenched and impossible to cross because of inherent perspectives. But even with those people, I'm feeling like if they were more open to step outside their own perspective for a bit and flex, we could accommodate each other. My mom and I had a good talk yesterday where she is making steps toward me not based on changing her worldview... but because she loves me and wants me in her life.

    Is that sort of commitment really the sort of issue here? We don't HAVE to get someone or be aligned with them intrinsically in order to still be committed to each other.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #453
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath
    Or at least, just as "useful" as any other Fe vs Fi thread. Some affirm, some deny, some re-work the definitions... (even though EW presented a supposedly "clear" workable definition.) [...] In other words, this place should be renamed "Hey, all the other Fe/Fi threads went nowhere, lets pretend Te will fix the problem!".
    yeah. i agree with you about the thread not really being a guide at all - and that the initial intention was Te let's clear this up once and for all - which i also agree is not gonna happen. the format was doomed because, let's face it, few people actually think in that format. but at the same time, maybe that motivation was somewhat useful in that this thread has been significantly more peaceful and productive than quite a few recent ones. i figure at the very least it's good in the effort to differentiate from the turmoil of the others.

    also, i think it's important to consider that even though the Fe-Fi threads seem redundant and recurrent, what each individual takes away from them is something different... this thread has been revolutionary for me personally, as i imagine other threads have been in the past for others. so yeah, it's not The Definitive Guide for everyone and that's actually a fairly presumptuous title on some levels... but it kind of has been A Definitive guide (for me). so i think that possibility always exists, that it will be the thread that changes everything for someone.

    The more the functions instinctively repel one another, the more permanent and irreparable our typological condition seems.

    I wonder if I'm alone entertaining that idea... (I probably am)
    no. i had this thought last night too upon reading a Fe-er's explanation of their distancing behavior as disgust of the other person - which is a concept that is so foreign and terrifying to me that i began to think that reconciling is perhaps impossible. after a while i calmed down and started looking for alternatives to that thought though, because - well, honestly - i just didn't like it.

    after a bit of thought i've come to an idea that maybe it is hard to leave our perspectives - maybe to the point of impossible - but at the same time, i feel like i'm learning another language. sure there are a lot of different dialects, and no one speaks it exactly the same, but there are some really general rules that, if i go by, the other side can understand me better. i'm still probably going to think in Fi-ish for the rest of my life, but at least i can try to translate into some form of Fe-ish to get my intentions across. and the most curious thing is that we're really trying to get at the same fundamental things - truth, trust, care, comfort, security, love - but we're going about it in different ways. so i don't think it's fundamentally irreconcilable. we just have to be willing to figure out how the other person is going about trying to get those things, so our opposite methods stop impeding one another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    I sort of dropped the thread because I'm tired, but also because I don't like deconstructing everything to functions so much... We're not functions, we're people. Sometimes it's worthwhile to examine a particular function (just like the science method of isolating something in order to examine a smaller and more management scenario), but the funny thing is that I think personal choice and intent, along with a lack of hubris, impacts ability to relate... and that is not confined to type.
    yeahh. i'm bad about this actually, sorry thread. i think because it's all loose association and not necessarily type-determined in my head - more like correlations - it's no big deal to talk like that. but others can read it as very definitive, i suppose. i agree with you that everything should not and can not be reduced to function alone.

  4. #454
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath View Post
    The more the functions instinctively repel one another, the more permanent and irreparable our typological condition seems.

    I wonder if I'm alone entertaining that idea... (I probably am)
    I don't find it depressing. I find it all very interesting. This thread has really opened my eyes to a lot of stuff I was blind to before because I took a great deal for granted. It has crystallized vague, fuzzy impressions into a more solid structure that makes sense to me. I think understanding someone else's viewpoint is always a good thing, even if you can never totally embrace it as your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    We don't HAVE to get someone or be aligned with them intrinsically in order to still be committed to each other.
    Hahaha! But WE do!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #455
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't find it depressing. I find it all very interesting. This thread has really opened my eyes to a lot of stuff I was blind to before because I took a great deal for granted. It has crystallized vague, fuzzy impressions into a more solid structure that makes sense to me. I think understanding someone else's viewpoint is always a good thing, even if you can never totally embrace it as your own.
    This, and what skylights said.

    I'm not (in my mind, anyway) reducing everything to cognitive functions, but it's the easiest way to talk about it. It's a simplistic shorthand. At least now I have a general idea of where Fi folks are coming from, and I won't be so quick to be irritated when our methods clash. It's the lack of understanding of what it's like for them that makes me default to judging them by my own processes and preferences, obviously incorrectly.

    I think this thread has been most helpful, and I believe that even when it looks like we're not listening to each other (because we're talking about ourselves) we really are. I think it's definitely sticky-worthy.
    Something Witty

  6. #456
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Hahaha! But WE do!
    "We?"

    I've known Fi and Fe people who can make commitments without understanding the other side implicitly because they are committed to the relationship regardless. Maybe you have not seen it, but I have. So I'm going to have to say that any sort of blanket-statement inferring that all Fe OR Fi can be labeled like this is a statement that I think experiential knowledge has dismissed.

    I do prefer to actually understand people, though, if I get a choice, and in terms of a strongly felt relationship? It ain't gonna happen unless I do. I'll maintain ties, but they aren't going to be my best friends and confidantes.

    But that is just me, and I'm not going to speak for an entire sector of personality type.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I have to agree it's hard to reach a consensus. It takes a great investment of time and energy. It's not the most expedient way, by any stretch. But, when people feel heard, feel known, you get the best out of everyone.



    Ah, sim. Well, we have to have rules because without them, the ensuing chaos would be a menace to hearing all voices and getting anything accomplished in this world. One must learn to abide by them, but to be aware there are times for leniency and times to even break them.

    The forum is not a democracy where all voices are welcomed to help deliver a verdict. I think the mods did the best they could in a difficult situation.

    There's the need to have a balance, between the needs of the many, or the few, or the one. (How Star Trekky of me!) Each situation brings unique challenges to achieve fairness, justice and equity, no?
    I've thought about your Star Trekky reference recently while in a situation where I was very aware of the needs of the individuals in the group. In order for the people I worked with to not be jealous of a close friendship I had with another member of the "team," I made sure I talked with almost everyone and did not give out an air of exclusivity. I had to weigh the needs of the many (Fe) against my own individual needs and the needs of the one (my friend). Deciding for the needs of the many wasn't difficult for me as this benefits the needs of the one. But there were times when I just wanted to be myself and to not hide the close friendship. What I mean is that I didn't feel I needed to completely submerge it. Perhaps this is Fi. I dislike being inauthentic and paying lip service to the group constantly. I'll do it because others expect and need it (and I also because being expansive and hearing others thoughts, ideas, and feelings is a good thing: everyone wants to be heard and feel that their feelings are being considered). This runs counter to my love for an intimate one-to-one connection, and my need to be heard as an individual; however, when you have a generous loving connection with one other person, it elevates everyone that comes in contact with it. So, the whole group benefits in that sense.

  8. #458
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    "We?"
    Fe likes universal statements. It amused me. I have an odd sense of humour.

    You're right of course. (Kinda)

    Someone loving me and wanting me in their life means next to nothing to me if I don't return the sentiment. Even if that person is biologically related to me. I am unmoved by the affections of others. Well, occasionally startled, but not into reciprocity. The whole "I like you 'cos you like me" thing? I never got that...
    Commitment is always contingent for me, never unconditional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #459
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I feel with these threads that although not everything can be reduced to functions, I learn a little more each time about how different combinations of functions affect our viewpoints and natural course of action. I also have found I've learned a lot about the similarities between different types of extraverted function and different types of introverted function.

    Although these threads may never reach any definitive conclusions, I found that the last time I discussed Fe vs Fi, I came away with a much better understanding that Fe and Fi have very different needs to feel appreciated or loved and a few ideas of what not to do anyway. This thread has also been enlightening to me a bit to provide me with some of the thought process behind the viewpoints Fi has. I don't think it will ever be natural to me, but it's like visiting a foreign country and suddenly being able to pick out some commonly used phrases and basic cultural customs. It makes you feel more secure while you're there. That allows you to keep your eyes and ears open to learn more, rather than being so focussed on how uncomfortable you feel or how strange their customs seem to you. When someone explains why in some cultures what certain innocuous hand gestures in your own convey there, or why it's bad to give someone an odd amount of flowers as is customary here, or that you need to refuse something several times or else it appears you are being presumtuous and grabby, it puts me more at ease and it doesn't seem like such an odd thing if there is really a reason behind it.

    I think I'll still struggle to remember some things in the heat of the moment, but I am more likely to realize where I've gone wrong sooner and have more ideas about what I can do to diffuse the situation, to make my intent more understandable, or to convey to the other person that I value them.

  10. #460
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I find it a strange accusation that Fi people insist that other people feel a certain way and ascribe emotion where there is none. I've heard that on these boards before, but frankly, never in my real life. In my life, I find myself on the other end - the one having emotion projected onto them, the one having people insist I must feel a certain way when I do not. Like many introverts, I tend to fall into moments of thoughtful repose where I have a "neutral" face and people will assume I must be upset or angry or unfriendly or whatever....I used to think it was Es, especially SFJs, doing this to me.

    I now wonder if this is a perceiving issue and little to do with Fe/Fi.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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