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  1. #441
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    If someone claimed to know my "hidden intent", I'd surprise them. edit: I mean, if they knew me fairly well, they could go there. Almost anyone who reacted too quickly was wigging on Si though, I'll say that. Fi has nothing to do with it. I think Fi types could make a good counselors, however. Especially in the sense of seeing potential in people, and generally having a welcoming nature.
    Last edited by KDude; 09-25-2010 at 07:59 PM. Reason: just felt liked adding some more

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Fi-users are better at discovering hidden intent than other types. Esp NFPs. They are unsurpassed in this regard, IMO. That's why they make great therapists. They probably DO know your intent/emotional state better than you do. In fact, hidden motives are often quite apparent to others - it is only the self that they are really hidden from (ego defense mechanisms).
    Didn't you recently call Wonka out for having a "hidden agenda"? So even weak Fe-users aren't entirely blind to motives that lie beneath the surface.

    It's almost always pointless for a Fi-user to insist on their interpretation of hidden motives though - since the other person is too invested in not consciously allowing such an interpretation - otherwise they wouldn't bother hiding the motive from the self in the first place. Mature Fi users will help the other person come to a realization on their own. That's a great and rare gift.
    That's great, but mostly irrelevant, since we are talking about when the Fi-user is wrong:


    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Okay, somewhere in the past few pages I started having flashbacks about experiences I've had with a couple of Fi doms. I have had a few friendships go south because an Fi dom felt like I was suppressing emotions that they could "sense" that they felt like I was ignoring. Where I might have felt some basic frustration at some situation I couldn't control, the Fi dom read it as anger, and reacted as if it must go much deeper than I care to admit. On occasion, they would accuse me of having anger towards them, when 1) in my experience it wasn't anger, just frustration that would easily pass once I ranted a little and 2) it wasn't directed at them at all. And I gotta tell you, the more someone insists I'm feeling something I'm not and insisting I deal with it, the more I realize that person doesn't know me. And that we might have a problem in the friendship.
    How does one get the Fi-user to back off and either admit their mistake or simply drop the matter for the sake of the relationship?

  3. #443
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    How does one get the Fi-user to back off and either admit their mistake or simply drop the matter for the sake of the relationship?
    tell them that you love them and are not trying to hide anything from them, and they're wrong and then explain to them how you really see it. or tell them that you love them but you really need some time alone.

    wording like "back off" and "drop it" really freaks me out because i feel like you're pushing me away without any affirmation that you still care about me and want a relationship.

    --

    sidenote - i've been trying to be less me-centric lately when it comes to posts but wow. it's frustrating. i'm not sure i totally understand why writing from your own perspective and talking about yourself is considered self-absorbed because ultimately i can only see through my own perspective... and wouldn't everyone else just prefer to talk about themselves anyway, instead of me making guesses?

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    tell them that you love them and are not trying to hide anything from them, and they're wrong and then explain to them how you really see it. or tell them that you love them but you really need some time alone.

    wording like "back off" and "drop it" really freaks me out because i feel like you're pushing me away without any affirmation that you still care about me and want a relationship.
    Heh, affirmation again!

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    sidenote - i've been trying to be less me-centric lately when it comes to posts but wow. it's frustrating. i'm not sure i totally understand why writing from your own perspective and talking about yourself is considered self-absorbed because ultimately i can only see through my own perspective... and wouldn't everyone else just prefer to talk about themselves anyway, instead of me making guesses?
    Can you step outside yourself and view how you look to others?

  5. #445
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think it's fine to say how things look from your perspective, skylights. Just explain the thought processes in doing so and what you react to best. At the risk of sounding can-opener-ish, I do much better when I at least understand the process that gets people to different points in their thinking/decision making and I become much more tolerant and flexible. (Incidentally, in other dealings, I feel more secure when I know roughly what to expect from the other person next. I don't need to control their behaviour, so much as be able to have a reasonable prediction of what it might be).

    I was finding the same thing as you today, trying to post without using words like productive, solution, results, behaviour, actions, clarifying etc all the time! I realized what a tendancy I have to focus on the words people are saying, their ideas, the thoughts expressed and compliment them, rather than assuring the person themselves of their value to me. It still seems foreign to me, as a compliment about what I say or identification with it is felt as being validation of myself. I just assume the other person is aware that we have mutual respect if I am engaging in detailed conversation with them.

    You expressed concern though at appearing self-centred to us. Rather than replacing what seems natural to you, think more along the lines of adding. After you state things about your own experience, ask what it looks like from their perspective. That conveys interest in them.

    I think we all can feel when the other person is holding something back (even Fe users). I see better now why it bothers Fi users as much as it does. My main concern when someone holds something back is how it is impacting our relationship, if it's something bad that the person feels about me (remember, we expect others to probe us for answers if they really care, so we do the same!) or if it is keeping us from taking action that will ameliorate the situation. Fi often will state conjecture about why we are not saying everything as if it is fact. That is usually what I react to the worst. It adds to the emotional noise I am attempting to bleed off so that I can talk about what's going on (if there is something). It also makes me feel like the person really doesn't understand me at all. They are also delusionally insisting that they do understand me and will help me, taking on a teachery kind of tone that feels patronizing, yet misinformed. It raises my hackles, kind of like Fe insisting that it knows the one best way for YOU to interact with others, and trying to impose that on you, when it really knows nothing about why you choose to act as you do, understand you sufficiently or what is best for you ultimately.

    I think it is actually fairly seldom that I haven't examined my own motives or what I'm not talking about. If I've chosen not to share, it usually is because I am still processing and sorting and need the emotional noise to die down a little bit or else that I need more time for trust to build in our relationship. Giving me space to do that (much like with Fi needing time to sort) will probably result in me talking about the underlying issues much sooner. Also asking questions about what I talk about, instead of making assertions about how I feel and why is something that I will respond to more openly and with less resistance.

  6. #446
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    ^^

    Agreed; also, it sometimes helps if someone tells me that I don't have to share if it makes me feel uncomfortable. That makes me feel like they respect my wishes and boundaries and don't take them personally. And then it makes me feel more comfortable opening up.
    Something Witty

  7. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    That's great, but mostly irrelevant, since we are talking about when the Fi-user is wrong

    You entirely missed the point of my post, and all the other answers you were given. Tallulah's post doesn't prove anything, though I'd give her more credit for understanding her own emotional state than someone like you - who a) frequently admits that you have no idea what you're feeling b) represses anger c) frequently acts in passive-aggressive ways

    You think it's arrogant that a Fi-dom insists they know your emotional state when you don't, but think about it. If you live your whole life without a mirror, who is best able to describe what you look like: you? Or someone looking at you? What if you're blind? Then you take it on faith that someone with vision knows more than you do about what your world looks like. Do you think emotions are more intangible than lightwaves? They're not. It's all energy. If you go through life as a person permeable to the emotional states of others (as NFPs do) then you can sense them as strongly as you can see the colour of their eyes. Just because we don't have a solid scientific explanation for it yet, doesn't mean it's not a real phenomenon. Many healing therapies rely on the therapist monitoring their own emotional or physical state and recognising that they are experiencing their client's symptoms.

    That doesn't mean Fi-doms don't suffer errors of judgement at times - Ne in particular, can lead them astray - but chances are, as an INTP, they have a better read on your emotional state than you do. And even if they have it wrong, it's still part of their reality, part of how they experience you, you can't just discount it as "they're wrong". You might as well ask them to ignore gravity.

    How does one get the Fi-user to back off and either admit their mistake or simply drop the matter for the sake of the relationship?
    You're asking the wrong question. Strategizing, instead of trying to understand. If you don't respect and listen to the Fi-user and acknowledge that their reality is different from yours, you don't have a relationship.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #448
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I gotto say..I stayed out of this thread purposefully, as I've participated in so many Fi/Fe threads, I figured people would be tired of hearing my rants

    But this one is definitely filled with wisdom. I feel we're finally getting to a point where we can concretely almost put together a manual on Fe and on Fi, and potentially are on the brink of finding that overlapping area where nobody gets ruffled feathers


    @Mac: there are at least 4 reasons an Fi-user's reading can be off (personal emotional instability, not having enough back info, laziness aka not doing your research before jumping to conclusions, inexperience, ...)

    However. Chances are that, unless they're full blown emotionally unstable, they are on to something. They might not be accurate when they guess as to what it is, but there's something there. It's like ignoring that whining puppy they were talking about before. Me, I always compared it to a frigging bell going off, which I cannot ignore, and the other person doesn't seem to hear. All I want from you is to acknowledge the fact that there *is* in fact a bell. If you're going to insist that there is no bell and I must be insane, I'm going to go mental. For real. Then I'll start wondering what possible reasons you could have for lying to me, hiding the truth for me and why that bell is going off at all. And that's where you get inaccurate. Since there is no way for me to get more information on the bell, I'm going to have to resort to Ne to consider which options are all available, and there will be some crazy ones in there!

    Also, when dealing with a rather inexperienced Fi-user, or one that's off their game for some reason, they might mistake certain emotions that have a similar vibe for another. For instance, momentary frustration can look like full blown rage, especially in a debate (like Tallullah talked about). Unfortunately, as Ti-users tend to *like* precision, they refuse the explanation or indication the Fi-user is given as being correct or truthful, and meanwhile imho, tossing the baby out there with the bathwater. Ok, maybe it's not full blown rage, but there *is* something there...plz plz plz take a moment and either explain to us why it's irrelevant/not important/should keep ringing/be ignored or is otherwise covered already and a non-issue, or turn it off coz it is driving me crazy :steam: (honestly, let's see you ignore a frigging smoke-alarm going off right next to you and keep drinking tea as if nothing's going on *pouts*)

    You can see why at this point you won't get an appology from the Fi-user. You're demanding them to say out loud that there *is* no bell and appologize for even suggesting you are hiding a bell from them. Ironically, *that* would be lying. And most Fi-users are kinda truth-oriented, especially on these things.Dropping it is hard, as that bell is still going. Plz turn it off. Plz, or let us at least help you turn it off. We're worried about you

    /rant
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  9. #449
    Senior Member Xellotath's Avatar
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    [This is a bit of a "meta" post, apologies in advance if it doesn't seem immediately constructive.]

    I've been keeping an eye on this thread for awhile.
    I felt relieved upon reading Morgan's lovely post - until a sense of dread and deja-vu hit me:

    This thread is kind of useless. Or at least, just as "useful" as any other Fe vs Fi thread. Some affirm, some deny, some re-work the definitions... (even though EW presented a supposedly "clear" workable definition.) EW thought that by organizing our entries under a common format we could avoid the pitfalls of most collective contributions regarding the feeling functions. In other words, this place should be renamed "Hey, all the other Fe/Fi threads went nowhere, lets pretend Te will fix the problem!". Perhaps she didn't put much thought into it or was trying to embody the optimistic "Fe/Fi conflicts are resolved with the help of other functions"-narrative, but I try not to pretend I'm psychic, nor is this intended as an ad-hominem in any shape or form, EW seems really nice and she gave the whole thing a fair try.

    And my cynicism might be due to watching my tertiary function fail, but I'm starting to think there is simply no resolution. In fact, the mutual and persistent deterring between the two feeling functions is giving me space to seriously doubt other people's so-called ability to switch from function to function (and with it, a large part of the supposed self-observatory skills). You know, like those people who say "Lol, I used my Fi, then my Fe, then my Te, then my Ne and a hint of Ni in X situation and I solved it all!".

    Are my standards too high? This thread is supposed to be a "guide". Almost sticky-worthy. But I'm getting the impression that maybe its more useful to have a "Fe Vs Fi" sticky, without the ambitions of documenting anything, much less bridging anything. Just a space for people to lash out (within TypeC guidelines of course).

    What if we're stuck in our ridiculous little 4-function sets? Perhaps its my Perceiver nature, but that concept intrinsically terrifies me.

    The more the functions instinctively repel one another, the more permanent and irreparable our typological condition seems.

    I wonder if I'm alone entertaining that idea... (I probably am)

    "Neurotic, ha!"
    I let out a scornful laugh.
    "If neurotic is wanting two mutually exclusive things at one and the same time, then I'm neurotic as hell.
    I'll be flying back and forth between one mutually exclusive thing and another for the rest of my days.
    "

    — Sylvia Plath, The Bell Jar.

  10. #450
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath View Post
    And my cynicism might be due to watching my tertiary function fail, but I'm starting to think there is simply no resolution.
    Well, sometimes the journey is more important the ultimate destination
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

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