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  1. #431
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't know if gut feelings are universally the same, or if there are Fe and Fi versions of them. I do know that as I've gotten older, I've come to trust that they are there though to protect us, as you said, Ivy. It used to be that until I could say why I had that feeling about someone, I felt like I was being hasty in not giving them a chance. I've finally learned that if you get those back of the neck prickles about someone, it's for a real reason, even if you don't know what it is yet. I wonder if we pick on up body language or patterns that are not consistent with what we've come to expect on an unconscious level, long before it registers consciously or if it's something else that provokes that reaction.

    I like that illustration of feeling being like having a pet along with you all the time. It also helps me better understand why Fi users insist something is awry, even if they can't explain it. It's the equivalent of their dog barking and barking. Whether or not they can see the squirrel or hear the high pitched noise or see the source of danger, they are assured that something is setting off that response in their pet.

  2. #432
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't know if gut feelings are universally the same, or if there are Fe and Fi versions of them. I do know that as I've gotten older, I've come to trust that they are there though to protect us, as you said, Ivy. It used to be that until I could say why I had that feeling about someone, I felt like I was being hasty in not giving them a chance. I've finally learned that if you get those back of the neck prickles about someone, it's for a real reason, even if you don't know what it is yet. I wonder if we pick on up body language or patterns that are not consistent with what we've come to expect on an unconscious level, long before it registers consciously or if it's something else that provokes that reaction.
    I wonder that, too. We had a recent harrowing occurrence in our church where a member of the vestry was caught sexually abusing his son in an FBI sting operation. The guy had always given me the creeps and so I avoided him, but I had no evidence for doing so beyond that feeling (which one of my daughter's teachers calls "the uh-oh feeling").

    I don't think it's the case that Fi users have better quality gut feelings or anything like that. Doesn't everyone use Fi? I wonder if those gut feelings are Fi for everyone, but Fi doms are just less capable of ignoring them. As adults I think we need to learn to question them more, where other types might need to learn to trust them more.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    I like that illustration of feeling being like having a pet along with you all the time. It also helps me better understand why Fi users insist something is awry, even if they can't explain it. It's the equivalent of their dog barking and barking. Whether or not they can see the squirrel or hear the high pitched noise or see the source of danger, they are assured that something is setting off that response in their pet.
    Yep! I remember one time as a child, a friend's mom was having an affair while her husband was away (he was an over-the-road trucker). The guy would come over and watch TV with us during the day when I was playing there. It felt incredibly wrong and bad to me, even though I was only about 9 and had no idea what affairs even were at the time. I didn't even know what sex was, to be honest. But I had a HELL of an "uh oh feeling" about that guy and that situation, and I was incapable of hiding it- I remember being sent home for being "rude" because I mumbled something derogatory about him under my breath.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #433
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    This is another thing I've wondered about. There seem to be several schools of thought on functions. Some describe it as only having the four that your personality encompasses. Those are the basic combined viewpoints that form the lens through which you see the world and by which you organize information.

    Function tests appear to indicate otherwise, although I end up getting different results whenever I take them. I also have thought that as we matured and understood other ways of processing information maybe our approaches change slightly. Although certain functions may not be completely what our natural eyes would see when we look through them, maybe they are like reading glasses or 3D glasses which can be temporarily put on and used when the situation calls for it.

    What do you think?

  4. #434
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I tend to think everyone uses all the functions, with varying degrees of comfort.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #435
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    well, NFPs don't react solely based on emotions either. i think perhaps it's easy to perceive it that way because our emotions and valuation are inextricably linked, but we are not bossed around by our emotions nor do we always react without thinking. instead, we try to utilize our emotions for the information that they are providing us with. though, that is not to say that a sudden tidal wave of emotion cannot seriously throw off our ability to process objectively.
    Yes, of course! I think the difference between us is that Fe users have less trust in their emotional objectivity and so need to check it against someone else just in case their feelings are clouding their perspective a lot. You folks seem to have a lot more grounded sense of steady emotion than I think we do because you arrrived at it differently. You trust it more.

    and, before i proceed, the standard Fi disclaimer applies - apologies if i sound overly emotional and pushy or self-absorbed in my writing. i'm still working on learning how best to communicate to Fe without totally losing the ability to emphasize (which i otherwise do through emotional language).
    You do terrifically well. Whatever you're doing, it seems quite effective to me!

    wow, fidelia, that's fascinating. and humbling. it's never even occurred to me that half of those things could be confusing or upsetting in a relationship. i guess it's part of being a P that external instability is not an inherently uncomfortable place. i mean, not to say that i enjoy friends who are completely insane (okay only sometimes), but it's less of a concern to me. hearing all of this makes it seem that my very close friendship with a Fe dom is kind of amazing, given all of these potential misunderstandings! and it's why i feel like i'm bending over backwards for her sometimes - i could not see it before but it's clear to me now that she probably is, too. but i suppose it goes to show that if you care enough about a person you will make an effort that is stronger than these divides. is it too cheezy to say that love conquers all?
    Yeah it's surprising from both angles. I'm beginning to better understand basic Fi needs after several in depth one on one conversations with ENFPs and INFPs. It still feels unnatural to me because the ways in which I would normally show appreciation and want to see it are ways that do not resonate very much or which seem stifling. Being aware of it is the first step though for me.

    and, what can i do to show NFJs that i do care about them - that good stuff you're talking about showing externally? do you guys really want gushy good stuff brought up in public? that seems so private :blushing: also, what do you mean by reacted weirdly? lol
    Hmm. See until discussing it in an ESTJ thread (over frustration with my boyfriend at the time) and then also in an INFP thread, I never realized how embarrassing and uncomfortable a lot of Fi users find praise to be. I tend to do for my bf what I would have loved for myself. I was very surprised later to realize that those expressions were not only kind of meh to them, but made them feel put on the spot. I realized I would have been better to make them something tasty, do some kind of a job for them or bring over a plate of cookies that I had made myself. While I would recognize the gesture itself as valuable if someone did that for me, verbalized expressions of where our relationship was at, how they feel about me, what they appreciated about me, even hearing second hand praise come back to me or a gift that answered one of my needs or secret wishes would have made me feel more secure in their love. I don't like PDA, but at the same time, someone being appropriately affectionate with me in public is a way of them telling those around us how they feel towards me. It's entirely possible that that has something to do with the love languages thing, but I notice some trends in the Fe-Fi divide that make me wonder if it's deeper than that.

    Some things that make this Fe person feel secure, valued or appreciated. Not sure how much is me, INFJ or Fe generally, so Fe people, feel free to add/disagree/clarify:

    A card saying what you like about the person and why (I quite honestly don't see a Fi user feeling comfortable doing this because they'd find it forced or fake).

    Telling someone else something positive about the person (preferably not in their presence). There's nothing nicer to hear than good "gossip" about yourself from another person, as long as it is sincere and not just a technique (not usually an issue with Fi people!)

    Asking them questions and encouraging them to talk about themselves. They often try to do this for others, but are very rarely asked to do so themselves. Ask further questions about anything you don't understand or that seems interesting.

    Show interest in their ideas. Go at it the same way as the previous point.

    A gift like the person's favourite chocolate bar or something else that would be a pleasant surprise in answer to their wants/needs or that would display some understanding or knowledge of how well you know them. Doesn't have to cost anything. Little notes are good too. This works even in platonic or family relationships.

    Seeing that the person is tired, stressed or overworked and looking for how you can help bear their load. Even someone helping to bear the emotional part of it (and not add to it) is so useful. You know how sometimes you feel your emotions are muddied by others not dealing with theirs? I feel the same if someone is acting moody around me but doesn't make it clear that it's not in response to me. Sometimes I also feel responsible to try to make the situation better too. I don't want the person to be fake, but deciding how your outward emo expression will affect an already stressed or overburdened at crucial times is very helpful. Much like it doesn't occur to us that you would take frustration personally when it's not about you, I think sometimes Fi users don't realize that Fe takes outward negative emotional reactions personally. It makes them feel very uncertain and responsible to fix the situation.

    Listen to venting without making it about yourself or a solution. Just be sympathetic until they turn a corner. Ask questions about what they vent about. Do not be the devil's advocate or try to get them over those feelings before they are ready. Realize that their frustration is completely unrelated to you.

    Notice when they need help, rather than waiting for them to request it. They don't want to impose and they only want you to do it if it comes out of care for them and from your heart, rather because they've made you. It's sort of their way of trying to be polite, even though they sometimes will feel hurt or annoyed if you consistently don't do anything that seems like you are trying to show consideration or care for them.

    Remember who the important people in their lives/day are. Not caring about stuff like that feel like you don't care about them or don't listen to what is important to them or affects them most.

    Visit them when they are sick. Even bringing them a hot drink or something to read etc is very appreciated. This runs counter to what you feel is respectful and good, but mostly a little imposing yourself on them in times of sickness or stress (without expectations) makes them feel cared for. (Obviously, you have to know the individual. Some INFJs for example are much more uncomfortable about people dropping by their space without sufficient warning or permission. I am a more social INFJ, and would welcome it).

    Showing care or affection for them in public is usually appreciated, depending on the situation.

    Give credit where credit is due, and if it's suitable to do so publicly, go for it. (This also runs counter to what you feel is respectful. Of course you don't want to put peopel in an awkward situation, but making them look good in front of others, as long as it is sincere or they are honestly deserving is usually appeciated).

    Tell the Fe user directly what you need from them to feel better. Fe tries to take action all the time (much like Te always wants to solve the problem quickly). If you need space or processing time, explain to the Fe person that they could help you so much simply by doing ______ , _______, and _______ which would give you the time alone you need to deal with the overload. They will leave you alone much better if you show them they actually ARE doing something good by giving you time alone. (This seems obvious to you, but it truly isn't to us. I think it's the same way that we forget to verbalize how helpful it is when you just listen to us. It seems so obvious that it almost seems weird to state it). Because Fe often looks to others in times of need, it sometimes feels hurt that you don't. This, I'm sure feels like we're making it all about us, just like we accuse you guys of doing. Explaining your different style of processing verbally is sometimes very helpful. Fe just really wants to be useful to other people and protect and care for them (even when it bumbles into trouble or annoys you. The motivations are good, just not always the method!).

    When a Fe user is going through something, do the opposite of what you usually would prefer. Some kind of physical expression of affection or care (without being fake or oversolicitous), encouragement to vent and not leaving unless the person says they need to be on their own usually goes over fairly well.

    EDIT: It sounds like I'm hung up on you doing everything publicly. I at least like those things in private too. I just want to know that the people close to me love me and are pleased to "claim" me as theirs because I very naturally tend to do that with people I care about. It says I'm not ashamed of them, that I'm on their team, that I'm proud to be associated with them. When they don't, it feels kind of like I'm giving that to them and they're playing it cool and so what people see is my enthusiasm and their seeming (possible) indifference. It makes me feel not sure how they feel about me, especially if they don't really express it directly in private either. Nice gestures are good, but I also need to hear it.

    Even when I admire someone, I am likely to tell someone else how I feel about them if their name comes up and say why. It's not so that it will get back to them, but because I just want to share such awesomeness with another person so they can experience it too. Sort of like raving about a great book or movie and why you like it.

    Well this is part one. I have to go out, so will send before I lose all this. You had lots of great points in the second half of your post though that I would like to respond to as well. Thanks so much for being interested in asking! More to come...

  6. #436

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    As an INFJ married to an INFP, I've learned a lot from this discussion. Even the argument-ish parts of the discussion have helped, although they look enough like our own arguments, in form rather than detail, to make my stomach tie up in knots.

    The following comments are not to argue with Seymour at all, whom I have come to respect through his posts. Instead, I'm more amazed at what he expresses, particularly in the first point, because what he expresses here is also so unfamiliar - and I'm not even a very strong J.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So, it's clear we Fi doms (or NFPs) have a different relationship with our emotions. In another thread I compared our relationship to emotions as being a little like going through the day with a relatively well-behaved pet by side. You know your pet well, and you know it reacts to things that you may not consciously perceive. It's entirely possible for your pet to become unruly or distracted ("Squirrel!"), but mostly it functions as a second set of eyes and ears. In a way, I feel a certain amount of affection for my emotional state, because it does almost feel like having a companion throughout the day.
    So outside my experience... As an INFJ (although, usual caveat, I may be the only INFJ that feels this way), I feel like my emotional state is more like a dragon that has to be chained and locked away, or I'll never get anything done. I have lots to do and people to take care of - work, house, kids, older relatives, husband, friends, etc. The dragon strength emotions aren't useful as a source of information because there isn't anything I can change about the negative situations that cause those emotions. The only thing I can control - in fact the only way I can express myself and my own values - is through my actions. Hence the INFJ (for me, at least) emphasis on actions.

    So, perhaps some of the above helps explain why NFPs sometime tell others "I'm perceiving you are feeling X." There's (from our perspective) likely important information somewhere in that feeling. Your not managing it is a bit like having to sit next to someone who is ignoring their barking dog or crying baby. It muddies our own emotional awareness, because we're distracted by data from you that we have to try to ignore. When you say, "I'm not feeling X" (which we have to trust, because we can't really know your emotional state), it means we have to go forward having to consciously keep ignoring that ongoing perception.
    This is a source of friction between me and my husband. He can tell I'm upset, and he would like to "fix" me - both to make me happy and to remove this muddiness for himself. However, if the "fix" doesn't work, then, on top of the emotions I had in the first place, which I have to let, at least partially, out of their chains to even have a conversation about them, I now have to also pretend to be fixed!

    There are times when I have to point blank tell him that I need to discuss an emotion, but I don't need it fixed. I need to work it out in my own time. Reading the Fi posts here helps me understand why this is difficult for him.

    And, even when we are correct about the emotion, it's unhelpful to try to force others to deal with emotions they are working hard to ignore. To an NFPs, ignoring emotions seems like a very foolish strategy... like choosing to wear a blindfold so you don't have to look at your messy house. Other people don't see it that way, and we have to learn to respect that.
    I used to be able to blow off lots of steam through intense workouts. I could shrink the dragon to a lizard. Since my knee injury, that hasn't been possible (I'm still hoping for the future). Therapy? I end up listening to the therapists' problems and views. There really isn't much I can do to deal with the large negative emotions right now.

    Even though the emotions are large, though, I can shut them away for a time. I can look away from them, like today, and do something my younger son wants to do, or, at other times, invite neighbors over for dinner, even though all I really want to do is sit and stare at the wall. The thing is, by emphasizing the actions, I may find that I, eventually, enjoy what we're doing and actually change my emotional state - at least for a time.

    I also have to say, after reading back through this and feeling like I'm a real downer, that although what I'm discussing here are the negative emotions, the positive ones are just as large, and I wouldn't give up the negative ones, regardless of how large they are, for fear I would lose the positive ones.

  7. #437
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    hot damn this thread moves like fire!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I wonder what Fi people do. They don't (necessarily) have someone else inside themselves to reinforce feeling of the moment and move it toward being a judgment.
    right, and that can make things hard sometimes. today i wanted to clean my room, but the reality was i really needed to throw things out. and that's theoretically okay with me - i don't mourn a lack of stuff in my life - but when i go through things everything reminds me of something and i see it's importance in and of itself and with certain things that are very nuance-laden it's really hard to weigh whether it's okay to throw them out or not. like, i'll want to, but i feel a value obligation to hold on to things because they hold meaning for someone, and even if it's not me, i want to respect that meaning. but, i asked my mom for help, and suddenly the task became much, much easier, because i would ask her, is this okay to throw out? and she would say, of course! and i suppose that seems rather lame, but the flipside is that i can see value in everything. and of course i didn't figure why having her around helped me so much or exactly what she was doing that was being helpful until later - i kind of made the realization gradually - but it was clear, external affirmation of my judgment.

    of course if i didn't have mom around to help me, it's possible i'd get emotionally overwhelmed by the sheer amount of stuff entailing associations eventually and just go into Te-steamroller and throw nearly everything out. i dunno if other NFPs like minimalist, open rooms, but i really do. i love decorations and whatnot but there is something about a minimalist, or at least clean and organized, room that is really peaceful to my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I do want to stress that it feels like (to an Fi-dom) that we're held accountable to Fe rules that we either don't know, or when we do know them they seem to make little sense and are impossible to keep track of—much less carry out consistently!
    yeahhh it's really confusing and then we get socially chastised and... well i think that's part of why this idea of a whiny emo who hates everyone exists. you might as well whine and declare the (collective) world hates you when you keep trying and failing and all the evidence you can gather points to rejection of you

    So, it's clear we Fi doms (or NFPs) have a different relationship with our emotions. In another thread I compared our relationship to emotions as being a little like going through the day with a relatively well-behaved pet by side. You know your pet well, and you know it reacts to things that you may not consciously perceive. It's entirely possible for your pet to become unruly or distracted ("Squirrel!"), but mostly it functions as a second set of eyes and ears. In a way, I feel a certain amount of affection for my emotional state, because it does almost feel like having a companion throughout the day.

    So our emotions function as a constant barometer that is always providing some feedback. Our feelings are often the result of all kinds of subconscious judgment. Our emotions aren't always "right"— for example, just because I feel irritated at someone doesn't necessarily mean anything about that other person. Maybe that person has similar mannerisms to someone else, and the association is triggering the feeling. Still, one never feels things "for no reason." There's always a trigger, an association or a subtle judgment that sets them off. Fi helps you monitor your emotional state, so when that state changes it's a reason (for an INFP, anyway) to ask "why?" Over time, you get to know what causes changes in your emotional state, and then you can react accordingly. In fact, you eventually use that self-knowledge to manage your own emotional state.

    So, perhaps some of the above helps explain why NFPs sometime tell others "I'm perceiving you are feeling X." There's (from our perspective) likely important information somewhere in that feeling. Your not managing it is a bit like having to sit next to someone who is ignoring their barking dog or crying baby. It muddies our own emotional awareness, because we're distracted by data from you that we have to try to ignore. When you say, "I'm not feeling X" (which we have to trust, because we can't really know your emotional state), it means we have to go forward having to consciously keep ignoring that ongoing perception.
    perfect. though i've never seen my emotional states like a pet, lol! i'll have to start using that analogy. i always kind of visualize it as a kind of ocean that my self lies in. sometimes it's terribly turbulent but it's hard to immediately know if that's from the hurricane raging outside of me or from the earthquakes going on within me or from some other source entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i think it's important to note that the sense that you never understand the Fi of Fi users so therefore have trouble being close to them is highly contingent on what your relationship quality is, how much your values actually do intersect, and how long you've known each other.
    yeah. i totally agree! and i do understand that it must be hard to deal with each Fi one by one. with each new person the game is changed. but i think that's part of why NFPs tend to give space - like, tend to only talk about themselves, by default - because we have this awareness that everyone's internal rules are different, and hidden, and we don't want to infringe upon them. just as Fe reveals more with growing closeness in the relationship, i think Fi feels more open to prod more and eventually even make decisions for the other person, which is otherwise very unnatural to us. i have learned that choosing tailored gifts for my FJ friends and family is very important as a gesture, but it's hard for me to decide what they might want for them. i've learned to kind of look at their overall style and "match" something, but i still feel uncomfortable making decisions for them. i love gift giving tons, but with FJs it comes with an added pressure because i know there is going to be a tangible LOVE or ugh when it comes to opening my gift. whereas with FPs it's usually like OH YAY PRESENTS! and maybe the gift kind of sucks but they still appreciate something about it. though i have to say, when you score giftwise with an FJ, you score big. it's like risk and reward, lol. the reward is greater because the risk was greater.

    tossing out all of their inner messiness doesn't seem to help Fi users organize themselves, nor does it help them seem to feel understood in most cases. instead, it usually seems to make them feel more misunderstood, because their experiences are so implicitly organized, complex, and difficult to grasp in the way that they shape themselves into gradients, values, prioritizations, and a kind of tentative dance with overlaid embodied ideas that give expression to their chaos, but which are extremely difficult to define/narrow down into more strict correspondences.
    well, but you see, to me it's not messiness and chaos, so there's no reason throwing it out would help me. yes it's gradients and associations and fuzzy things like that, and sometimes can be very, very turbulent, but it always has rhyme and reason. sometimes i'm not immediately sure of what that rhyme or reason is, but i do trust it. what does help me is to cross-check it externally, via Te.

    but i do love your wording about the tentative dance.

    but the limits to that project should show that there are other ways for systemic integrity (vs Fi integrity) that don't rely on impossibly big decisions/judgments at all times/wrestling with EVERYTHING all at once.
    right, i agree with you here. and it's a pet peeve of mine that Fi users like to claim the right to authenticity. i joked that it was a logical fallacy for anyone to be inauthentic because they cannot be anyone but them in another thread, and i got pounced on by some very serious NFPs concerned that i did not understand the layers Fi sees, lol.

    and i really think Te plays a huge part in chilling Fi out, for ENFPs at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    What I am beginning to understand is that when there is frustration (I was trying to get tools to better communicate with you, but didn't feel like we were getting anywhere) on a Fe user's part, it is more likely to be felt as being more personally directed to the Fi user than it in fact is intended or felt.
    this is very true, fidelia. it's confusing to a Fi user to be getting signals of emotion but having the other person be indifferent to those signals. and i do understand that removing emotion allows for logic to proceed purely, but it's very odd for me to feel this emotion emanating out of another when they interact with me. and Fi can mess up and take it very personally. i've been doing that with my NTP dad for years. he's frustrated about something and then speaks to me in the frustratey voice and i am like asl;kdjf;seu!!!! WHY are you treating me like this?!? what i miss is that he is not meaning to direct that emotion at me, but then it becomes a global fail because he does get pissed off at me for accusing him of something he did not feel. and that is totally legit. and he didn't choose to internalize the emotion - but he was projecting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I can make a conscious decision to leash the pet for a time, but I do so at my peril. It's going to be back there whining the whole time. And for me, if there are going to be tears, there are going to be tears, and there's simply nothing I can do about it. This has not served me well in academic and professional zones.
    haha whining is such a great way to describe it. it tears at you until you're finally just like WHAT!?!? and yeah, me too, about crying. i am actually really not much inclined to cry, but when i get REALLY angry, it is almost certain there are tears to follow.

    i'm gonna get that fear book. sounds neat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think it's the case that Fi users have better quality gut feelings or anything like that. Doesn't everyone use Fi?
    i wonder if we don't each use the introverted function that we possess to assemble these gut feelings. because every person does seem to have them. i can easily see Ni and Fi reading them, and Si too, based off of past creepers, and Ti as well, based off of reading subtle clues all around that all add up to a bad situation. and maybe it's a combination of all of these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I tend to think everyone uses all the functions, with varying degrees of comfort.
    not that i am an MBTI expert, but this makes the most sense to me as well.

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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Strangely enough, Caerulea, I feel comforted to know that you identify with the way the discussion went and recognize a familiar pattern. That gives me hope that if we can crack where our different viewpoints lie (between NFP and NFJ especially) it can end up doing a lot of good for all of us in our relationships with others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I do dislike when I'm read wrong, aka assigned a motivation/intent I did not have, when I hurt someone's feelings. My response is to take back what I've said/written, because obviously there was a communication failure. But with Fi-users that doesn't seem to work very often, because the misidentified intent still remains and I'm unsure how to correct that. As a (weak) Fe-user it's like a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't-trap.
    Fi-users are better at discovering hidden intent than other types. Esp NFPs. They are unsurpassed in this regard, IMO. That's why they make great therapists. They probably DO know your intent/emotional state better than you do. In fact, hidden motives are often quite apparent to others - it is only the self that they are really hidden from (ego defense mechanisms).
    Didn't you recently call Wonka out for having a "hidden agenda"? So even weak Fe-users aren't entirely blind to motives that lie beneath the surface.

    It's almost always pointless for a Fi-user to insist on their interpretation of hidden motives though - since the other person is too invested in not consciously allowing such an interpretation - otherwise they wouldn't bother hiding the motive from the self in the first place. Mature Fi users will help the other person come to a realization on their own. That's a great and rare gift.

    As for take-backs, no, they don't mean much. Once something has been said, it cannot be unsaid. Once done, it cannot be undone. Personally, I can forgive people over and over, but there comes a point where apologies become meaningless - if the person repeatedly acts in the same way and refuses to address the underlying issue, they are not sorry. Being sorry implies remorse. Continuing on the same course implies no remorse. Actions speak louder than words to Fi users - again it's intent, not content.
    It's hard to cross the line with a Fi user, (if you're in, you're in) but once you have, there's often no way back.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    • i find it more difficult to bond with Fe people because it seems very unpredictable. Fe values are kept somewhere in the external collective, where i don't have personal access to them without asking, so it's tougher to evaluate where i stand with you.
    • Fe users seem to rebuke me often for behaviors they don't like, which feels like they prefer to retain the power in the relationship. (holy crap thinking of myself retaining power in a relationship is really weird). they want me to focus on how everyone acts, and often will judge my actions but not care to hear my explanation of intention.
    • almost never will they spontaneously open themselves up to me, which leaves me wondering if we even have a bond or if i'm valued by them.
    • they often try to direct me when i'm not doing well, instead of helping me figure out what's gone wrong. if i ask for explanation they seem frustrated with me.
    • they don't stop to affirm me when i've expressed i'm anything but okay
    • I identify with a lot of this. Actually, I've come to realise that I don't think it's possible for me to bond with a non-Fi user. I feel connected to someone to the extent that we share our deepest values in common, without that, there can only be the most superficial of relationships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    True. I have learned over time not to disregard the guts. I don't always give them top billing, and I may come to a conclusion that they are mistaken by using outside evidence, but I never just shut them out them anymore. Inconvenient and overwhelming though they may be at times.
    I have a problem with trusting my gut, even though it has never been wrong yet. I'm a good judge of character, yet I still often end up learning the hard way, because Ti discounts the impressions provided by Ne/Fi and insists on a rational explanation for any course of action. I wish I knew how to get past that...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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    fidelia's list of how to care for a Fe user
    holy CRAP is that helpful. like, i can't even express how great that is. once it's affirmed/slightly edited by others i will print it out and tack it to my board.

    okay and now i have a quick question for Fe users. about questions, lol.

    so is it affirming to you if i type some initial reflections of my own about what you've said, and then ask you questions to clarify? because that is how things come more naturally to me, if i am making an effort to ask you questions. i don't want my questions to be empty; i genuinely want to translate my Fi communication into things that are good for you... so it's hard for me to rapid-fire questions back like yall tend to do - mine would be mindless, and i think you deserve better - but is it okay to question after i reflect, or does that come off as me being self-absorbed for a while and only afterwards thinking about you?

    i will be back with questions about that list i am sure. lol.

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