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  1. #411
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Yes, that's it, it feels like a lack of respect. I'll directly say they are wrong about me, and they'll insist they are not... and then I might do something really damaging to the relationship.
    Word on that. I have a bunch of anecdotes from that angle (at least one of them in this thread ), and I respond the same way.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #412
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Wow, lots to read! I think we're getting somewhere useful though. There's a bunch that I still need to go back through. The one thing that stands out to me is that what each of us thinks is being very obvious, isn't and also that how we feel validation of our words is different. I was interested to realize that what you would like to be validated for is the emotional effort put forth, rather than just WHAT you said. To me, I would naturally want response to what I said and not care as much if something valued that I said it. I was also surprised to realize that by pointing out something objectionable in the words said, it is felt as an indication of how we feel about you. I think there is something a little more detached and impersonal about Fe in that sense.
    Yes, it feels like we are making progress, I agree. There are lots of small points that could bear refining, but they aren't too important at the moment. What is important is that we are sharing a dialogue, and can hopefully keep at that to come to mutual understanding.

    PB what you did up there is one way that I think you can make a Fe user feel listened to. Summarize what you are taking away from it and ask more questions! (Which is exactly what was frustrating you about us). To us, that feel like being listened to.
    That's helpful, but what kinds of questions are you looking for, generally speaking? Questions to refine the topic, questions about what you said? Questions about how you feel? What if I didn't have any questions? Would it be better to state, "I have no questions right now, but your post makes sense to me". ?

    In return, would you say that thanking the person for putting themselves out there and then not bombarding with more questions is what works best for you?
    It's more than thanking, and not quite thanking. It's a word that might make Fe users cringe, but I think of it as honoring. It means, "I recognize that you are exposing a very private aspect of your personality, and I appreciate you and respect that it may have been hard to do". To me it's an honor if someone is that honest with you ... opens their heart and exposes themselves to the possible censure of others. As Seymour mentioned ... yesterday when I laid it all out plain from my POV, it's like waiting, holding my breath, to see how I will be received. It's my last card to play. It's all I have.

    That may sound a little melodramatic I know, but I am saying it like I feel it so you can maybe feel that a little too.

    What form of listening actively would allow us to carry on the conversation without making you feel grilled? (Aw crap, I'm doing it again!)
    I was pondering on that this morning. I think you tend to use Clarifying and I tend to use Reflecting. What do you think? For me the problem with Clarifying is that the listener clarifies in order to understand better, but a) I either don't know how to explain it any better or b) it feels like you didn't understand any part of what I already said, especially from the feelings perspective. The problem with Reflecting (esp feelings-based Reflecting) is that you DON'T think I have taken the time to understand your fact-based points and help refine them by fine-tuning with pertinent, thoughtful questioning.

    Do you have experience with Non-Violent Communication techniques? I wonder how they are different? I was just reading some on that. I think I'd like to get the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    PB, to me, what you did up there is what feels like active listening from a Fe standpoint. You have summarized some of what you are taking away and you have pointed out the things that seem less clear. I guess that's why I took offense at you asking why I was afraid to use active listening. I felt that I had just spent hundreds of posts doing that! Because my method of communication is what I place the higher value on, I also felt like that statement was invalidating me as a person.
    I am sorry it felt like that to you. As above, I think we (ironically) focus on different components of the skill. And we are doing it to each other, but don't notice because we have our own vantage point.

    As far as recognizing warning signs, I have a hard time the other way around, even though other Fi users could see it coming for miles. For Fe, in most cases if you hear someone pointing out a particular statement and saying "That sounds (insert negative descriptive adjective here)", it is not a personal statement about you. Instead, they are saying, "I think this is where you are going off the rails. I can't believe that you are actually (insert negative adjective here). Back up so that we can clarify this, I can ask questions to better understand where you are coming from, we can change the statement slightly to be more accurate for both parties or if you don't see why it sounds offensive to me, I'll give you the information you are missing.
    OK, I can accept that, I have no questions about it. I just would like to say though that when anyone adds a value judgement to what I've stated (examples: "That was a condescending thing to say" - "You sound like you are dismissive") it is very hard for me to step back and not hear - "You are condescending" - "You are dismissive". It's taken years and years to be able to keep the appropriate arms-length from those words. But some are still harder to hear. It's challenging enough working to clear a misinterpretation with one person at a time never mind 3 or 4 Fe users and one PB!

    I believe this is sometimes why Fe users seem to just keep harping on the same thing over and over during an argument. They want you to back up and acknowledge the thing they are pointing out. When you go on to talk about your intentions, or validation or anything else, they get frustrated and yell louder and get blunter and drop the niceties (because they think you are not getting the message they are conveying), which feels hurtful to a Fi user. Of course this is easier to analyze in retrospect than it is in real time.
    It does feel like we miss each other's essential points. You are focussed on validating the message first, refining, clarifying. I think I am focussed on validating the person and the message is secondary in a way. Does that strike a chord with you?

    When the "teacher voice" that skylights talks about gets used, it feel patronizing to us (what we see as the "real" issue still is being ignored and we assume that you either don't understand the problem or that you are not taking responsibility). What I didn't understand is that when that voice comes out, it is an indication of feeling overwhelmed and ganged up on and needing some time to sort thoughts out and refuel, as well as an affirmation of faith in each other's intentions.
    The voice of Te is the voice of stress I guess. It desires to cut away the superficiality and get to the core of the issue in order to reestablish understanding and civility. No more flowery words. It's like - I need to take off my Fi glasses and really look hard at what I've said through the lens of Te. Te will tell me if I've been objectively incorrect. Or at least that's my theory. I don't know for sure. I always know my intentions; sometimes I can't control how it was heard. So then Ne will race through every tangential misinterpretation and every tangential way to try to fix whatever it was that went wrong. And Fi is feeling lonely and misunderstood and just wants to feel back to center, feel harmony again.

    I also didn't understand that the need for personal affirmation and validation made so much difference. I find those kind of affirmations surprising and extraneous for myself, because I want to deal with what was said - with the idea. To me, it isn't anything personal and reaffirming me as a person, but not dealing with my words feels like you are just searching hard for something nice to say or like evading the issue at hand. The METHOD of conveying the idea is the part that forms my opinion of someone personally, more than their motive in doing so or in how much effort it took for them to put it out there. Therefore, it never occurred to me that I was invalidating you personally, because I was trying hard not to invalidate what you were saying and in fact showing affirmation by asking questions to better understand it. On the other hand, you had put yourself out there and it seemed like I was glibly skipping over that and minimizing the amount of emotional energy and effort it required to give words to it. Not only that but I was nitpicking about wording of something small and just honing in on it rather than the spirit of the message and the other sentiments expressed.
    That is well-said and I can see your understanding pretty clearly in terms of your POV and how you are trying to describe mine. Thanks for taking the time to express all that. See, for me, the METHOD of conveying the idea has practically no bearing on how I form an opinion of you. Now, some people come across as being open or close-minded, and that might affect my opinion. Even what what they say, if they are a real tool. But I will formulate a sense of their intent, and forgive any verbal imprecision. Does that help you see what I mean?

    See, for example, I already know I like you; I get good vibes from you and I am drawn to that. It doesn't have anything to do with anything in particular you have said to me. But I have felt for a while you are guarded with me and when I am around. What would help you feel less guarded over time?

    And what do you do when you encounter someone who is really blunt and says things in a very confrontational way? Do you tend to avoid people like that in the first place? Because you assess it unlikely to be a fruitful exchange at all?
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 09-28-2010 at 09:30 AM. Reason: added DON'T oy vey!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #413
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Tallulah expressed many of the points that I was mulling over extremely well! Thank you!

    Regarding the active listening thing: I think the root of my frustration was that I felt like I already was actively listening by trying to summarize and ask questions. It became apparent that PB felt I was not, but I was needing some more specifics on how to make her feel actively listened to.

    I wondered if the problem was not using the language "What I'm hearing is..." etc and so I explained why it felt fake and unnatural to me to do so. Then she said that wasn't it, but still didn't offer any ways of me communicating that I was listening that would work better for her. Instead, she then started asking if I was afraid it wouldn't work???? This made me even more frustrated, because now she was 1) assuming there was a fear present which wasn't actually there 2) assuming a teachery tone which made me bristley 3) misunderstanding me 4) still not offering the information I thought I had very plainly asked for!

    Having tried several different ways of asking for the information, I then decided that if honesty was what was desired, then I would try to explain what impact the choice of wording had, why I found that statement offensive and how it impacted my willingness to try to accommodate. When I did all this, she responded by saying that she was drained and was going to leave for awhile. I felt again like the information I needed to be successful was being denied and I was trying so hard! Like playing a game, but the other person not telling you any of the rules.

    Going back through the same incident now, I better can see what was needed from a Fi perspective to avoid some of that. I'm still afraid that in the heat of a moment, it'll be easy to revert to my customary approach, but I think that at least being aware of some of this will help me get back on track much sooner when I see things headed in that direction. I know that it is exhausting to do all that, PB, and it probably made for an unpleasant evening for you. I'm sorry for that.

    This is a little unusual for me too. Usually when I get into a tangle with someone, I try to retreat fairly quickly to avoid the ensuing waves. It's only in the last while that I've understood that as long as there is mutual respect and a basic understanding that both parties are not going to melt down and resort to name-calling (or worse), then sometimes conflict can ultimately offer more understanding for both parties. This is one of the reasons that I went ahead and engaged (and yes, I realized that the words I wrote would be read as a little harsh).

  4. #414
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    sometimes conflict can ultimately offer more understanding for both parties
    Yes, there is so much WIN in that statement, for both of us. I'll look forward to more of yours (fidelia's) and everyone's thoughts as the evening and weekend progresses.

    In the meantime, I need to reenergize my brain.

    P.S. Part of what's contributed to my fatigue is that dental surgery I had - it's wiped me out for the better part of a week now, to my surprise. I'm only starting to feel some improvements. But yesterday, the emotional and physical demands were just getting too much for a short while. I had to withdraw to replenish myself ... even in boxing, the rounds are only 3 minutes long!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #415
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    From my own post:

    2.) That when Fe users jump in to share opinions all in a big pile, it's to verify what each other is seeing. Poster A: "Those pants are blue". Poster B: "Yes, they are"! Poster C: "Oh yes, that seems right to me." This does have the effect of feeling ganged up on, but, I can appreciate that's not necessarily the intent. One can more effectively validate what is agreed upon. It helps when other Fe users see what they think they see too.
    I just had a random thought: If as above, Fe users generally consult with other Fe users to be careful and verify if they are seeing things the same way, aren't they really just checking to see if the person or behaviour conforms to Fe guidelines?

    IOW, it truly is confirmation bias. The bias will always run towards Fe. And Fe users will feel justified in their decisions, because a whole bunch of other Fe-ers agree.

    Now, when I am running on Fi, I have been known to check in with a couple of Fi-ers myself, not to see if they agree per se, but to see if I am going too far, or if I am missing a huge red flag and should notch it down.

    I just thought ... it's as though the Fe-ers should consult with Fi-ers and vice versa. Someone neutral; at least have one other person from the other team so to speak, to stay balanced in perspective.

    Does anyone think that would be beneficial? Or are the world views too disparate?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #416
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    When I check in with other people, it is very rarely to see that they would act in precisely the same way. If it's way out of line with what they see is appropriate, of course I like to be aware of that, but I usually am pretty aware.

    What I'm checking is
    1) if they think that my course of action will result in an outcome that is somehow destructive/non-productive for one or both parties and how
    2) they see some information that I forgot to factor in that would possibly bring me to another conclusion
    3) how it is likely to be perceived by the other person, so that I can weigh whether the negatives outweigh the positives or not.
    4) what my attitude appears to be to them - I want to be sure that the way I am being perceived is consistent with what I intend to put out there

    I'm not really interested in knowing whether they are 100% behind me, so much as making sure I'm working with all the information possible and that I am not blundering into something I hadn't properly considered.

    If there is a Fi user whom I trust, they are available and I'm debating about how to respond to a Fi user, I would most likely consult them. People like Cze Cze, JJJ, Ivy and Udog would all be people whose judgement I trust and whom I have some history with. I tend to have more misunderstandings with Te heavy Fi users. Someone like Orobas has been helpful to me in the past for explaining some things. I would consult her a little now because I have some past history in threads talking to her.

    I would also consult whatever Fe users were in the thread at the time to see if even from "our side" I was acting in a way that was out of whack. For example, even here, I posted something, asked Jennifer to read it and was considering taking it down. By the time she had responded saying that she could see that I was taking great pains to be respectful while being very forthright, but she wasn't sure how it would end up going. I was going to revamp and then realized you had already seen it and decided to let the chips fall where they may. I could see all along that Tallulah was taking a more concilliatory approach than me and while she wouldn't disagree with the spirit of what was being said, I could also assume that she probably wouldn't have gone at it the same way as me.

    In this case, I decided that I would try doing something differently than I had in the past, realizing that you are a very reasonable person who does really care about sharing what you have to offer us, even at your own expense. I probably wouldn't have if I thought that we wouldn't have been able to come through to the other side. In this case, I understood that what I was doing would create conflict, but decided to go ahead with it for the greater good of seeing what productive stuff could emerge from that.

  7. #417
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    For me, they are only a piece of the puzzle. So many times, if I'd reacted solely based on my emotions, I'd have made the world's largest fool of myself. I know there are always pieces I don't have, and I need to a) cool off, b) analyze, and c) ask for input.
    Are you sure this is not some form of T?
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

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  8. #418
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I dunno. I identify with what she said too.

  9. #419
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I dunno. I identify with what she said too.
    Then again, Fid, you have a pretty well-developed T (like Annwn).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #420
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, hadn't really thought about that. Is that an enneagram thing, or is it more related to type of work etc that would encourage that?

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