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  1. #391
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I forgot to address the active listening thing, because I think that's where PB and the Fe users had a breakdown. (Hee, that's going to be my new band: PB and Fe Users!) PB, the reason why fidelia and others had an issue with your suggestion to use active listening was not because they had a problem with the technique or were reluctant to use it. It's because they do use it from time to time, and they felt you were implying they didn't know about it at all, and should really try it sometime. I personally feel like fidelia's been using a form of active listening throughout this whole thread, but she does it more in the form of asking more questions to show she's trying to understand deeply, rather than repeating what the person said.
    I'm left wondering why no one could express it like this, rather than telling me I was being condescending and patronizing.

    A post full of questions feels like no one is listening to be honest, and that was already said wasn't heard. The questions themselves sometimes seem to suggest it, especially when they seem unrelated to what was said.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I'm left wondering why no one could express it like this, rather than telling me I was being condescending and patronizing.
    Probably because Tallulah was a third-party observer, rather than someone actually involved in the exchange(s).

    It's a lot easier for someone outside the discussion to get the "lay of the land" and comment generally on it (like a spectator describing what has just happened at a sports game) rather than members of the team actually out on the field lost in the nitty-gritty of the second-by-second play.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #393
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    I'm not bothered by Fidelia's questions at all. I don't ever feel any sort of ... violated...by her. I am honestly perplexed by the Fi users that do get offended by her because I think she tries so hard.

  4. #394
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Probably because Tallulah was a third-party observer, rather than someone actually involved in the exchange(s).
    Yes you're right, and skylights has the same vantage point. It's useful.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #395
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Wow, post edits are going nuts in this thread! Getting this stuff right/accurate/authentic seems to be really important to people.

    This has been your daily unnecessary admin commentary. Carry on.
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    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #396
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm not bothered by Fidelia's questions at all. I don't ever feel any sort of ... violated...by her. I am honestly perplexed by the Fi users that do get offended by her because I think she tries so hard.
    No one here is saying fidelia doesn't try. I guess I feel like the questions keep coming without any evidence that what was said before was heard or understood.

    That feels overwhelming, you know?

    I need some evidence or feedback to answer new questions. Otherwise I feel like I'm just building a house of cards. If I take an hour to post, and within a minute or two are new questions, did you hear what I was saying? Because some of the questions were answered in the post I just made, generally speaking.

    Maybe my answers aren't obvious enough.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Another point that occurred to me during the last two pages is this. Sometimes a Fe user has absolutely no problem with you at all, but then gets their hackles raised about the way you (general Fi you) phrase something or approach something. Something that would lead an Fe user to believe that you feel like you are taking some sort of moral high road, or that you feel like you are above using the usual social roads to get there. Or maybe that you feel like you actively want to stir up some stuff to get down to the "real" us. So then we get frustrated with you and try to tell you why. And then you accuse us of having some deep seated anger issue or some sort of underlying problem with you. And 99.9% of the time--trust me on this--we DON'T. But if you keep acting like we do, you can bet it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I didn't have a problem before--I only had a problem with a little piece of the conversation, or didn't understand your intent--but if you accuse me of feeling and suppressing something I'm not and attribute it to the wrong thing, hoo, boy, I will almost certainly get angry THEN.
    Hot damn, you just described a few of my interactions in the past. If there's one thing that will strip away the Type 9, laid back, inferior Fe user I am... it's that. Even then, I still hold back a lot. They get hit with a single A-bomb of anger and react with horror, not knowing I have plenty more racked and loaded.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    I think you captured the essence there. It can feel like Fe people are deliberately missing the point when they are giving Fi peeps a grilling. It does feel like personal attacks. So we push back in defense, and then that's when all hell breaks lose. And truth be told, I never figured out how to get past that. Because that moment when clarification is asked for , I answer but it seems bring more questions, and all of a sudden it feels like people are trying to open up your head with a can opener, and I will clamp down and batton the hatches, and get the guns out, because you ain't touching ma inner thought processes.
    Yeah, we're just tying to understand, don't intend it to be an attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Definitely awesome posts. I will need to digest and think a bit, I think. But I will say a couple of things...

    Sky--your brother doesn't hate you. We (INTPs) have no problem finding fault with an idea, but we almost never attach the idea to the person. People are separate from ideas. Ideas are important, but they're also always open for debate, dissection, or new information.
    I do think INTPs can get personally attached to their ideas, esp. if they think they've worked out all the possibilities.

  8. #398
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Another point that occurred to me during the last two pages is this. Sometimes a Fe user has absolutely no problem with you at all, but then gets their hackles raised about the way you (general Fi you) phrase something or approach something. Something that would lead an Fe user to believe that you feel like you are taking some sort of moral high road, or that you feel like you are above using the usual social roads to get there. Or maybe that you feel like you actively want to stir up some stuff to get down to the "real" us. So then we get frustrated with you and try to tell you why. And then you accuse us of having some deep seated anger issue or some sort of underlying problem with you. And 99.9% of the time--trust me on this--we DON'T. But if you keep acting like we do, you can bet it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I didn't have a problem before--I only had a problem with a little piece of the conversation, or didn't understand your intent--but if you accuse me of feeling and suppressing something I'm not and attribute it to the wrong thing, hoo, boy, I will almost certainly get angry THEN.
    Hot damn, you just described a few of my interactions in the past. If there's one thing that will strip away the Type 9, laid back, inferior Fe user I am... it's that. Even then, I still hold back a lot. They get hit with a single A-bomb of anger and react with horror, not knowing I have plenty more racked and loaded.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    I think you captured the essence there. It can feel like Fe people are deliberately missing the point when they are giving Fi peeps a grilling. It does feel like personal attacks. So we push back in defense, and then that's when all hell breaks lose. And truth be told, I never figured out how to get past that. Because that moment when clarification is asked for , I answer but it seems bring more questions, and all of a sudden it feels like people are trying to open up your head with a can opener, and I will clamp down and batton the hatches, and get the guns out, because you ain't touching ma inner thought processes.
    Yeah, we're just tying to understand, don't intend it to be an attack.


    *brofists the splendid contrary image because no one else will and the south bound train roars thunderously past the north-bound, itself likewise speeding all a-clatter down the dim tunnels of the dark night*
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  9. #399
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    This thing of feeling like you're walking on eggs around INFJs makes me want to cry, it's so discouraging because there's almost nothing I can do about it and I hear it in my own life -- people are intimidated by me. But I have zero power over anyone, and I can't imagine that my approval means that much to anyone. I think my orientation is not that personal. And I hear from INFPs that this is a shortcoming in some way, that I'm not experiencing the richness of me, honest to god? I'm just not that fascinating. And how I feel could be because of anything. So I really have to give things time. And 99.9 percent of the time, I am GLAD and everyone else should be too that I kept my mouth shut. So when I hear that I'm hiding my feelings and making myself hard to read, I want to tear my hair out.

    It seems crazy to me to tell someone else, in effect, you can do whatever you want and it's always ok with me. I can't provide unconditional approval. I suspect it, anyway. I think it means you're not paying attention.
    Well, even what I was talking about above is more on the order of "I will always give you the benefit of a doubt" (as OA phrased it). To expand on that, it's more like "I will interpret your actions knowing your intentions are good. If they seem not to be, I will ask before judging." It's not carte blanche to be a selfish jerk.

    I also struck by "I'm just not that fascinating. And how I feel could be because of anything," because I think everyone's interior world is probably that fascinating. And while we feel things for various reasons, feelings are never about nothing. I may feel an inappropriate surge of dislike for someone, but that's not meaningless data. Something triggered that emotion, and merely dismissing that feeling as "inappropriate" is discarding valuable data (even if that data turns out to be more about me than them). If I share that inappropriate feeling with someone else, that's a sign that I trust them enough to see past the ugliness of that feeling. After all, we all have ugly/inappropriate/negative feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Okay, somewhere in the past few pages I started having flashbacks about experiences I've had with a couple of Fi doms. I have had a few friendships go south because an Fi dom felt like I was suppressing emotions that they could "sense" that they felt like I was ignoring. Where I might have felt some basic frustration at some situation I couldn't control, the Fi dom read it as anger, and reacted as if it must go much deeper than I care to admit. On occasion, they would accuse me of having anger towards them, when 1) in my experience it wasn't anger, just frustration that would easily pass once I ranted a little and 2) it wasn't directed at them at all. And I gotta tell you, the more someone insists I'm feeling something I'm not and insisting I deal with it, the more I realize that person doesn't know me. And that we might have a problem in the friendship.

    I think Fi doms think they want us to be straight and open, but an Fe user's version of straight and open will look quite different, and feel quite different. If we really never censored ourselves, Fi users would stay permanently hidden. We just don't seem to speak the same language. Y'all would really think we were mean, even though we'd see ourselves as just shooting straight. Because we would dispense with the need to affirm feelings or validate. We'd just tell you how we read the situation. And we wouldn't mean to be hurtful, but it would probably feel that way, because we've abandoned the agreed-upon niceties we generally try to employ. We generally don't do that with people until we've established a friendship and the friend knows that we would never attack them personally. Even though Fi thinks it would like everyone to be open and above board, it generally gets its feelings hurt when we do. I have been called "relentless" by a Fi-dom before, when that was certainly the last thing I was intending.
    So again, here's the "I'd come across as meaner without filters" and a kind of implication of "you wouldn't be able to handle my emotions if I expressed them all." Those statements may well be true, but that represents a very different assumption than the one I tend toward. The "knowing that we would never attack them personally" is part of the "benefit of a doubt" dynamic I was referring to above, and it's not something I would offer to anyone but a good friend. What's the nature of the things you hold back that would come of as mean? Is it just a phrasing/language issue?

    And, just to be 100% honest, I don't share everything that pops into my head even with my very closest friends. There are some things (especially negative valuations of others) that would do far more damage than good were they expressed. Is perhaps part of the issue that most Fi judgments are turned inward, and when expressed aren't directly about others? Even in the cases where they are about others, I may choose to share the emotional content without sharing the valuation of the other person. I can express my irritation with my partner without saying "I think you are being idiotic when you do such-and-so.. you should know better by now."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Another point that occurred to me during the last two pages is this. Sometimes a Fe user has absolutely no problem with you at all, but then gets their hackles raised about the way you (general Fi you) phrase something or approach something. Something that would lead an Fe user to believe that you feel like you are taking some sort of moral high road, or that you feel like you are above using the usual social roads to get there. Or maybe that you feel like you actively want to stir up some stuff to get down to the "real" us. So then we get frustrated with you and try to tell you why. And then you accuse us of having some deep seated anger issue or some sort of underlying problem with you. And 99.9% of the time--trust me on this--we DON'T. But if you keep acting like we do, you can bet it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I didn't have a problem before--I only had a problem with a little piece of the conversation, or didn't understand your intent--but if you accuse me of feeling and suppressing something I'm not and attribute it to the wrong thing, hoo, boy, I will almost certainly get angry THEN.
    Lots of good stuff here. And I think you are right... to an Fi-dom, being able to discard the social niceties and cut to the chase feels like a truer, better way to be. It feels like a relief to encounter the real other person and deal with what's actually going on with them. It feels less filtered and more authentic.

    I'm not saying it is actually inherently better, but it's hard for it not to feel that way when it's one preferred mode of operation. And again, I don't want that kind of interaction with everyone... only those I like and/or respect. In fact, if I dislike you and still go that route, that's a high sign of respect, since I'm trusting you to work with my openness despite that dislike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    My GF is INFP and we run against value-issues pretty often. My value set is focused on whether or not a value actually reinforces good behavior and negatively reinforces bad behavior (Fe). Her value set is a lot less obvious, because it can't be predicted by the outward situation -- it's about whether or not a certain (possibly unnamed) ideal is met.

    To me, she seems a bit too poetic and not utilitarian enough in terms of her value set. But to her, I'm too nitpicky -- too focused on the tangibles of what's going on; she often thinks I miss the deeper value-problem.
    This is great, too! I usually feel like adults aren't pavlovian (even though we all are in some ways), and to orient things around "reinforcing good behavior and negatively reinforcing bad behavior" is likely to backfire. If carried out on a surface level, it can be like those "motivational" posters, which never fail to make me feel first oppressed and then subversive.

    In work settings, I feel like when you treat people like adults, they usually rise to the occasion. When you treat people like children, they usually sink to that level. Sometimes, being herded by Fe feels like there's an assumption that I'm not a adult who is responsible for his own stuff. That gets Fi's back up, because we can feel very territorial about the management of our own emotional space.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yeah, I think it's a bit hard for a Fe user to see the value in validating people's feelings no matter what--there are plenty of people out there that are all too happy to use it as an excuse to do whatever the heck they want and say they had good intentions, absolving themselves of responsibility for their actual actions and the consequences of both actions and words.

    That's why it's not enough for a Fe user to just say, "Ah, well, they had good intentions," because we see the ramifications of people's actions all too clearly. We see the ripple effect.
    Very true. The "good intent is not enough" was a difficult lesson for me to learn, and it's still not always a natural assumption. Part of Fi is managing one's emotional state, and part of that (for me personally, anyway) means I have a lot of good intent inside. That's an important part of my identity, so being told "it doesn't matter" is hard to hear. My natural inclination is to believe that "with good intent, understanding and perseverance a good result is assured." (Makes me roll my eyes to state it like that, have to admit.) Sometimes I think INFPs are so interior that we feel like once we've got things aligned internally, we're mostly done and the external action is just an niggling detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    [...] My husband (INFP, but really close to E) and I (INFJ - and really I) once started to get to know someone from a community organization. We invited them over to dinner twice. The first time was fairly awkward, but we thought we'd try again. About halfway through the second dinner, the guest started telling us some very personal things, with a lot of anger. When the guest was done, they looked straight at me, not my husband, and, after a moment, got angry at me, but wouldn't say why. It seemed that they were expecting something from me, but I didn't know how to respond.

    "How to respond" - I guess that's a very Fe concept (I'm still learning about this). How does this person want me to respond? What do they need?

    There are two very different things going on here, though. The first is how to respond - how to make the other person feel heard. I know I botched that - I'm not good at thinking on my feet. This post will probably take me at least 20 minutes to write. I'm still sad that I wasn't able to respond in a way that made them feel heard.

    [...]So, was this a case of an INFP's Fi reaching out? If so, why would this person expect an immediate response from me (they knew that I was a quiet person) rather than my husband, who is far more talkative and good with words than I am? They'd had numerous conversations with my husband and only one - ever - with me.

    It's not that I didn't care. I cared very much. It's that I'm not good at expressing that in a brief period of time.

    [BTW, I did apologize later for having offended them and asked what I'd done to offend. They responded that they had forgotten about the whole evening.]
    I can't really know what your guest was actually trying to do in reality, but it may well be that he sensed you were "good people" and he was trying to break through by being open and vulnerable to you. Of course, maybe he had other issues going on as well. Still, I think your statement of "It's that I'm not good at expressing that in a brief period of time." is well taken. I sometimes feel like Fi is a pretty much constant emotional barometer. I may not know why I feel what I feel in real time, but I do know what I'm feeling (although granted, sometimes I have to untangle it with what I'm feeling from others). I feel like with some INFJs, they may not know exactly what they are feeling in real time, and even when they do it's harder for them to express.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    In theory I can see this. The place where that seems to usually break down is when I read the other person as being patronizing, usually after I've just told them where one of the hot buttons are that would be better avoided and they go there anyhow. I've run into this more than once now and so I do understand that I need to deal with it differently.

    However, I can't see that just saying "Thanks for all of the work you've put into this" and then going on to say what I normally would is going to go over a lot better. I find myself having a hard time really believing that the Fi person in question can't see that they are using inflammatory language, especially after they've been informed that they have. That's usually the point at which I quit trying to make them feel comfortable because it seems like there's been no sense of trying to put themselves in my shoes (which I'm trying to do with them), yet they are giving me no direction for how to do better with them and they also are assuming that they know how I feel and are going to tell me.
    It does seem ironic that from Fe's perspective, a nicety like that seem artificial and patronizing. Isn't that usually an Fi complaint? But still, the re-establishing of good intent (especially before something negative) is helpful. It can also help defuse the NFP response of taking critique and criticism personally if it's clear that "my judgment of you and/or your contribution is still positive, even if I have these specific issues."

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I can see where it is that we all reach the impasse. I'm just struggling with how to avoid it from a Fi perspective. While I believe acknowledging their contribution is a start, I really don't know how to proceed from there. If I am even tactfully honest about my disagreement, it is read as a personal attack. If I say nothing, I think I'm being disrespectful to them or choosing not to engage, which negates the point in trying to hash it all out in the first place. If I just repeat what they said in my own words, I don't see how that helps, especially if they stated it clearly.

    I'm sure this is just as frustrating to you people as it is to me, and this is not well-expressed. For sure, getting the can opener treatment is not pleasant. It is done with good intent though. In an effort to not think poorly of your motives, we are trying to delve for more information about what we don't understand. I'm realizing though that this is not obvious to the other person and feels very uncomfortable.
    I think the can opener treatment (heh!) can be unpleasant, especially right after one feels like one has laid one's card on the table and made oneself vulnerable. Laying one's emotional cards out, being met with a blank stare followed by a very specific "So, during that you said X here and Y there..." can feel like a rejection. Maybe it feels like asking for a thank you card for some out-pouring of emotion, but the moment after trying to reach out is a moment of vulnerability. I think the Fe user may assume "I'm still digging, so clearly I'm still interested so there's no need to focus on what I did understand."


    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Hot damn, you just described a few of my interactions in the past. If there's one thing that will strip away the Type 9, laid back, inferior Fe user I am... it's that. Even then, I still hold back a lot. They get hit with a single A-bomb of anger and react with horror, not knowing I have plenty more racked and loaded.
    You do realize type 9s are in the anger triad, and one of their core issues is failing to acknowledge suppressed anger? Just sayin'!


    EDIT: Props to PeaceBaby and her post below... I respect her sticking with the discussion and continuing to put herself out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    *brofists the splendid contrary image because no one else will and the south bound train roars thunderously past the north-bound, itself likewise speeding all a-clatter down the dim tunnels of the dark night*
    "You're waiting for a train, a train that will take you far away. You know where you hope this train will take you, but you can't be sure. But it doesn't matter - because we'll be together...."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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