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  1. #31
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I had forgotten that both ENFJs and INFPs have a inferior thinking functions. That would make sense then.

    I think also that INFPs feel put on the spot or cohearsed by INFJ Fe just as we sometimes feel with ENFP Te. I avoid situations where I am going to have to debate something that I haven't thought sufficiently about or where someone tries to impose a solution on me when I think they don't understand the problem. I could see how INFPs would feel similarly about my Fe smothering their Fi or putting them on the spot to explain it.

    I also expect that the reason Te users find the meandering and many shaded thoughts of Ti puzzling is the same reason we find Fi puzzling: we can't imagine not having it readily available to express what you feel. Te users can't understand not being able to readily express your logic without getting all quanitifying and rabbit trailey about it.

  2. #32
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Aw, PB, I wasn't saying that! I just meant that in the concern for justice to be done and wrongs to be righted, I see some Fi users in public groups (usually workplace stuff) sometimes shooting themselves in the foot. I even specified I wasn't referring to you, but that I did want to understand that better because from my perspective it didn't make sense. I know people don't do things that don't make sense to them, so I was missing the requisite information to understand the whole thing.

  3. #33
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ no offense taken; I wanted to be clear.

    Sometimes we will "shoot ourselves in the foot" I guess, for the things that matter. Depending on the particular Fi user or the particular situation, it can be done with sophisticated subtle nuance or a lack of tact and appreciation of all of the politics involved.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #34
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    I just want to say thank you to you guys. I think im still a little too inexperienced to add anything, but just listening to this im learning how to be in the world.

  5. #35
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I've been thinking ... why do issues have to be resolved privately, especially if they originated in a public setting? Why is the focus on saving face rather than full disclosure?

    I am curious. Anyone who shares the sentiment feel free to respond.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #36
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    When you have a problem in public with one of your friends, you do not start yelling and crying and screaming for everyone to hear. It needlessly involves others who were not part of the original dispute. That usually ends up unproductively and badly for everyone involved. If a stranger intervenes, they are likely to be attacked by both of the parties involved. If they don't intervene, they are needlessly annoyed or their business is hampered by someone elses petty selfishness. The onlookers have no power to enact a solution, so it is not fair to involve them.

    If you are upset with the way your teacher runs a class, you can be assured that you will not get results by challenging them publicly. All you do is assure them that you don't like them, possibly make their job more difficult by turning others against them and sometimes it is not appropriate or productive to publicly share the information that informs their decision-making. You also make them feel like you are ambushing them and they are not emotionally or mentally prepared so will come off looking badly. It's like coming up behind someone for a fight rather than challenging them head on. If you approach them privately, they may give you more information to give you a different perspective. They may explain why they have not chosen to take the route you see fit. You may also gain a better understanding of them and why they act the way they do. In all cases, you still have the option of public embarrassment in the name of full disclosure later. I actually think that doing things in public inhibits full disclosure sometimes, rather than enhancing it. That said, I agree that there has to be accountability. That's why everyone has a boss that you can go to if you get nowhere with the person. I lived in a community for five years that didn't have newspapers to report crime or corruption. I agree that this was detrimental. However, you might agree that publishing something in a newspaper without checking the facts or getting the story from several people first privately might be unethical.

    I guess I think that sometimes, in the name of promoting peacemaking, people actually exacerbate the situation by choosing the wrong venue to deal with it.

  7. #37
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    Because the details (the why, not the how) might be nobody's fucking business.

    I think it's hurtful to some people to have their business dragged out in public. It not only hurts their pride, but can cause them pain and anxiety.

    I will talk about some issues publicly, but usually when it concerns a person that just doesn't give a good god damn.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    When you have a problem in public with one of your friends, you do not start yelling and crying and screaming for everyone to hear. It needlessly involves others who were not part of the original dispute. That usually ends up unproductively and badly for everyone involved.
    Actually, some people do, if they're so upset their emotions are controlling them.

    I actually think that doing things in public inhibits full disclosure sometimes, rather than enhancing it.
    I agree with this. Totally.

  9. #39
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, you're right. Some do, but it's usually not considered a good thing. Makes others feel uncomfortable (or occasionally unsafe).

  10. #40
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    I'm not sure about this, but do you think it's possible that Fe-Ti people see things in many shades of grey, rather than black and white (kind of like Fi-Te is about emotions). Therefore it is important to be precise about expressing your ideas/feelings (hence the emphasis on the message) and it feels wrong to insist that things ARE a certain way, as Fi-Te may feel more comfortable doing (Te generalizes a little more, Fi feels very very strongly)? Just kind of thinking aloud. I haven't really tested all of that out yet against all the real life situations I could to see if it holds true.
    Though your thoughts are interesting, your phrasing in this thread sort of puts me off a little.

    It's characterizing FeTi as a more sophisticated way of being than FiTe.

    Rather, I think framing this in an opposing set of breadth-depth priorities is more fruitful. I hardly see Fi as black and white emotions while I'm experiencing it, that's just what comes out at the surface. It's like looking at an underground cave with two openings that covers vast terrain underneath the surface by describing it by what you can see standing outside.


    I imagine it's the same idea for Ti vs. Te. The extraverted functions are results-oriented, so Ti users would be going "gah! there's xyzabcd to consider, we must take this and that into account" and Te users would be going "but if I just stay above ground I can travel the same distance and get to where you are by walking on the grass. It's more efficient." And Te would be more productive, getting more things done, and being results-oriented. Ti, however, would be far more precise and careful with their thinking.

    So Fi is hardly binary, it probably just looks that way because you don't go spalunking and see how much weavy-traversing we did, you just see if we came up on one side or the other.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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