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  1. #361
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Wanna borrow my Ni? I knew that's where things were headed from the moment the thread was posted.
    It was the whole point of the thread.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #362
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks for that; I do fully expect us to be unique, and as an INFP I would imagine we have enough in common to recognize each other though. Does that make sense?

    FWIW, you seem a lot like one of my best friends, an ISFP. She says what you do, that her interior world is a full, private reality, and she expresses that through her art, her writing and her new passion, permaculture. I feel more Ni than Ne from you, but that's a big aside here.
    With all due respect, everybody seems to think I'm like their best friend who is this or that type. I decided to choose a type based on how the functions and dichotomies fit me best in my own estimation, not how I compare to other people of this type or how simpatico I feel with other people of that type- because, to be honest, I just don't feel simpatico with most people, period. That includes INFPs- I resisted the type for a long time because I don't feel a kinship with other INFPs. If I had to choose a type based on the people I feel kinship with best, it would be INTPs. But I'm pretty sure I'm not actually an INTP.

    To be frank that felt like an oblique dismissal of my opinions in this thread that don't match yours, to me. All couched in tenderness and harmony, of course.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #363
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    With all due respect, everybody seems to think I'm like their best friend who is this or that type. I decided to choose a type based on how the functions and dichotomies fit me best in my own estimation, not how I compare to other people of this type or how simpatico I feel with other people of that type- because, to be honest, I just don't feel simpatico with most people, period. That includes INFPs- I resisted the type for a long time because I don't feel a kinship with other INFPs. If I had to choose a type based on the people I feel kinship with best, it would be INTPs. But I'm pretty sure I'm not actually an INTP.

    To be frank that felt like an oblique dismissal of my opinions in this thread that don't match yours, to me. All couched in tenderness and harmony, of course.
    Just an Ne tangent, my apologies. No offense intended.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #364
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    i guess what i mean to say is that Fi takes care of the inner person - it's protective of identity. if my identity is tied into a post, then it needs to be treated like i'm putting myself on the line. because i usually am, all the time. many NFPs will open up all the way for the sake of truth, but that leaves us really vulnerable too. to tell you the full truth of what we feel is to expose our weaknesses. so we have this idea of affirmation because we know how much a person is putting at risk.

    actually, yeah... i kind of see the truth and feeling good as wrapped up into one. that's what Fi does - it connects emotion with value judgment. so when things are proceeding in a direction you believe is right, you feel good (not necessarily in a placid, content way - you could be kind of fired up, but feel like you're making progress), and when things are headed in a direction that's wrong - subjectively, since Fi is a subjective function - you feel poorly about it. but if you feel bad and then someone says, hey, i know we're both pissed off, but i want to hear what you have to say, then you have a reason to endure those strong negative emotions, and to keep putting your personal core self out there.

    just theorizing, but INFJs with strong Ti probably don't have that inseparable truth-and-feeling-and-identity connection, so it probably seems kind of dumb to have to reassure the other person's feelings when we're searching after the truth. the search for truth itself should be in and of itself compelling, and it's not as tied to personal identity. but, at least for my own Fi, truth and good and identity are inseparable.
    For me, the truth is something discoverable, and generally, it rings when I strike it, so I keep moving in the direction of the ping. But it has zero to do with my identity. It feels good when I'm in the truth because it's a wholesome alignment. But this personal self there's so much emphasis on to me does not exist. There's nothing I've ever experienced that has not also been experienced by other human beings, including feelings of alienation from other human beings. I have a sense of oneness with other people whether I like them or not, whether I disagree with them or not. My personal identity and personal feelings are so insignificant in the grand scheme of things...

    This thing of feeling like you're walking on eggs around INFJs makes me want to cry, it's so discouraging because there's almost nothing I can do about it and I hear it in my own life -- people are intimidated by me. But I have zero power over anyone, and I can't imagine that my approval means that much to anyone. I think my orientation is not that personal. And I hear from INFPs that this is a shortcoming in some way, that I'm not experiencing the richness of me, honest to god? I'm just not that fascinating. And how I feel could be because of anything. So I really have to give things time. And 99.9 percent of the time, I am GLAD and everyone else should be too that I kept my mouth shut. So when I hear that I'm hiding my feelings and making myself hard to read, I want to tear my hair out.

    It seems crazy to me to tell someone else, in effect, you can do whatever you want and it's always ok with me. I can't provide unconditional approval. I suspect it, anyway. I think it means you're not paying attention.

  5. #365
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It doesn't seem necessary to me and that's one place where I don't feel like the Fi voices in this thread are universal Fi voices. For example, I get the impression that other Fi users in here believe that the only way to be fully honest is by total emotional disclosure. I have never felt like my Fi "feeling tones" need to be explained or shown to everyone to be valid.

    Something I read tonight while surfing around on Wikipedia struck me as applicable to this thread:



    This makes complete sense to me and clears up a lot of my confusion about my type. My interior space is decorated entirely with Fi. The way I engage with the outside world is Ne/Si/Te. I actually feel fairly protective of my insides- my values, my gut reactions to things, my "compass"- and I process that data to share it with the outside world using my counterbalancing functions. Not all of it needs to be shared. What IS shared should be fully authentic, but what happens on the inside belongs to me and me alone and I don't owe it to anyone to blurp it out to the exterior.

    Is any of this making any sense at all?
    Just for the record, I been wrapping my head round concepts, and pondering while I rearrange the internal furniture. I don't think I've been a voice at all for Fi....I've just been asking questions, putting forth theories. Speaking up when I determined there was a need. I've never claimed to be a typical Fi-Dom.
    I've just been trying to grasp and pin point the communication errors. I still don't quite understand.
    I do however think, Fi and it's expression is very much individually determined.
    I also think PB was getting frustrated, and she pouring her heart and soul into explaining some thing, but she was still not getting there.
    Have you meant to say one thing, but it turns out that wasn't what you said, due to conversation evolution and what not.
    I think that's what happened here.
    I find it hard to represent what goes on internally, I try through metaphors etc, but it's never going to quite capture the neferious wee beastie that Fi can be.
    PB said it, 90% of Fi-doms would have just not bothered explaining it at all.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #366
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Okay, somewhere in the past few pages I started having flashbacks about experiences I've had with a couple of Fi doms. I have had a few friendships go south because an Fi dom felt like I was suppressing emotions that they could "sense" that they felt like I was ignoring. Where I might have felt some basic frustration at some situation I couldn't control, the Fi dom read it as anger, and reacted as if it must go much deeper than I care to admit. On occasion, they would accuse me of having anger towards them, when 1) in my experience it wasn't anger, just frustration that would easily pass once I ranted a little and 2) it wasn't directed at them at all. And I gotta tell you, the more someone insists I'm feeling something I'm not and insisting I deal with it, the more I realize that person doesn't know me. And that we might have a problem in the friendship.

    I think Fi doms think they want us to be straight and open, but an Fe user's version of straight and open will look quite different, and feel quite different. If we really never censored ourselves, Fi users would stay permanently hidden. We just don't seem to speak the same language. Y'all would really think we were mean, even though we'd see ourselves as just shooting straight. Because we would dispense with the need to affirm feelings or validate. We'd just tell you how we read the situation. And we wouldn't mean to be hurtful, but it would probably feel that way, because we've abandoned the agreed-upon niceties we generally try to employ. We generally don't do that with people until we've established a friendship and the friend knows that we would never attack them personally. Even though Fi thinks it would like everyone to be open and above board, it generally gets its feelings hurt when we do. I have been called "relentless" by a Fi-dom before, when that was certainly the last thing I was intending.

    I do think PB has a point about her examples being largely dismissed. I don't think that she had a right to expect validation for her actions at work, because everyone will have an opinion on that of their own, and this isn't a discussion of whether that was the correct course of action. But I do think it's not too much to ask for people to acknowledge the positive contribution of an example to a largely abstract discussion. That's a helpful thing, as is trying to put into words what Fi looks and feels like. I think Fe generally likes to make people feel welcomed in the group, right?

    PB, I do think it would help for you to be interested in understanding Fe, too, and cutting fidelia and others some slack for their approach as well, rather than solely being here to be the Fi teacher. This needs to go both ways. I can definitely understand why some folks are getting their hackles raised when you talk about people being ready to hear you or not, or leading them down a path. It's just a discussion. A two way one.

    skylights is a good example here of someone who's providing an Fi perspective AND trying to understand the Fe one.

    Another point that occurred to me during the last two pages is this. Sometimes a Fe user has absolutely no problem with you at all, but then gets their hackles raised about the way you (general Fi you) phrase something or approach something. Something that would lead an Fe user to believe that you feel like you are taking some sort of moral high road, or that you feel like you are above using the usual social roads to get there. Or maybe that you feel like you actively want to stir up some stuff to get down to the "real" us. So then we get frustrated with you and try to tell you why. And then you accuse us of having some deep seated anger issue or some sort of underlying problem with you. And 99.9% of the time--trust me on this--we DON'T. But if you keep acting like we do, you can bet it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I didn't have a problem before--I only had a problem with a little piece of the conversation, or didn't understand your intent--but if you accuse me of feeling and suppressing something I'm not and attribute it to the wrong thing, hoo, boy, I will almost certainly get angry THEN.
    Something Witty

  7. #367
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    My GF is INFP and we run against value-issues pretty often. My value set is focused on whether or not a value actually reinforces good behavior and negatively reinforces bad behavior (Fe). Her value set is a lot less obvious, because it can't be predicted by the outward situation -- it's about whether or not a certain (possibly unnamed) ideal is met.

    To me, she seems a bit too poetic and not utilitarian enough in terms of her value set. But to her, I'm too nitpicky -- too focused on the tangibles of what's going on; she often thinks I miss the deeper value-problem.

  8. #368
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    ^^

    Yeah, I think it's a bit hard for a Fe user to see the value in validating people's feelings no matter what--there are plenty of people out there that are all too happy to use it as an excuse to do whatever the heck they want and say they had good intentions, absolving themselves of responsibility for their actual actions and the consequences of both actions and words.

    That's why it's not enough for a Fe user to just say, "Ah, well, they had good intentions," because we see the ramifications of people's actions all too clearly. We see the ripple effect.
    Something Witty

  9. #369
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    because we see the ramifications of people's actions all too clearly. We see the ripple effect.
    Some of us do.

  10. #370

    Default A Fi question from an incompetent INFJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    ...So, that may not be what's happening in this thread, but Fi emotional honesty is sometimes a way of reaching out to the other person, hoping the other person will respond in kind. The hope is that one can then see the other's true self, and continue forward with the perspective of all the cards being on the table. It's not necessarily a conflict-free approach, but I think it's one that Fi-ers tend to reach for without realizing it may seem emo and unnatural to people of other persuasions.
    This is totally off topic for the way this thread has been going, but I really wanted to ask because Seymour's quote may go to the heart of something that has been confusing (and upsetting) me for years.

    My husband (INFP, but really close to E) and I (INFJ - and really I) once started to get to know someone from a community organization. We invited them over to dinner twice. The first time was fairly awkward, but we thought we'd try again. About halfway through the second dinner, the guest started telling us some very personal things, with a lot of anger. When the guest was done, they looked straight at me, not my husband, and, after a moment, got angry at me, but wouldn't say why. It seemed that they were expecting something from me, but I didn't know how to respond.

    "How to respond" - I guess that's a very Fe concept (I'm still learning about this). How does this person want me to respond? What do they need?

    There are two very different things going on here, though. The first is how to respond - how to make the other person feel heard. I know I botched that - I'm not good at thinking on my feet. This post will probably take me at least 20 minutes to write. I'm still sad that I wasn't able to respond in a way that made them feel heard.

    The second thing, though, was what was going on inside me at that point. Partly, I was freaking out because I had thought of this as a beginning-to-get-to-know-them kind of dinner. What they were telling us was the sort of thing that I would only expect to hear from a long-time, very close friend - not an acquaintance. It was the sort of thing that I wouldn't tell anyone.

    Mostly, and this overwhelms the freaking out part, my empathy had kicked in. My heart ached for this person - for the rejection and lack of love and acceptance that they had felt. It was a feeling that, for me, went beyond words. I still can't really express it. Maybe it's because I'm a musician.

    [Strangely enough, my cat could tell. She never got to be a mother so she "takes care" of me. She can tell when I'm upset, and she tries to either snuggle up next to me or "wash" my hair. She was very insistent, at this point, on snuggling up to me, even though I wasn't sitting in a cat friendly position.]

    So, was this a case of an INFP's Fi reaching out? If so, why would this person expect an immediate response from me (they knew that I was a quiet person) rather than my husband, who is far more talkative and good with words than I am? They'd had numerous conversations with my husband and only one - ever - with me.

    It's not that I didn't care. I cared very much. It's that I'm not good at expressing that in a brief period of time.

    [BTW, I did apologize later for having offended them and asked what I'd done to offend. They responded that they had forgotten about the whole evening.]
    Last edited by Caerulea; 09-23-2010 at 11:40 PM. Reason: clarification

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