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  1. #331
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    But you are not at all speaking of the facts of the matter -- you are speaking about getting affirmation for your actions. This is what you call active listening.
    No, I wasn't looking for affirmation of my actions, I was looking for affirmation of the example, the contribution.

    In using the rephrasing there, I was just providing a way of showing the poster that you heard them. I don't care if anyone agrees. It's just an acknowledgement of thoughts.

    Perhaps it's obvious to you when you should speak up. It's when I didn't get the anticipated response of "Yes we will fix the safety issue" that I did a very Fi thing, I think, which was to feel righteously upset and take action.

    It's about speaking up. You value speaking up no matter what effect it might have.

    So this leads me to believe maybe it is very hard for you to speak up.
    Yes, yes it is. It's very hard to speak up. It was back then. Even here right now it is. Which is why I need you all to realize that. I don't put your Ti or Ni on the spot. Yet here I am, trying to give voice to something that's hard to do. I would like a little credit, and a little empathy along the way, to help encourage me.

    You want acknowledgement and recognition that you speak up.
    (I think)

    Why is that so important to you?
    Because it takes so much energy and courage to do it. You have no idea how draining even this conversation is to me. I'm not trying to be melodramatic about it, I'm just being real. I will literally be shaking after an emotional exchange.

    Fi is like the shy kitten in the corner; you can't just stomp around to make it reveal itself.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #332
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Aw, little kitty girl. I didn't realize. I'm sorry!

  3. #333
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And one last thought:

    What confuses me though is that even within the NFP variety of Fi users, there are only some people that I seem to have more problems understanding and being understood by. I can't account for what that factor is that makes me feel that way, because those people often get along very well with other NFPs that I find more ease of communication with.
    90% of Fi users will not take the time to try to explain all this. That's why.
    As another Fi dom... I don't think that's all it is. I'm reading this thread and have made a conscious decision to stay on the periphery because I feel like I'm being spoken for inaccurately but I have no real idea how to go about articulating the inaccuracies.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #334
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Wow, this thread turned out to be a clusterfuck after all.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #335
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Wow, this thread turned out to be a clusterfuck after all.
    Wanna borrow my Ni? I knew that's where things were headed from the moment the thread was posted.

  6. #336
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    I see. Okay, this:

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I put up my workplace example. No one did any active listening with me, for example, saying, "PB, that was a travesty. When someone points out a workplace danger, it is important for that to be respected and heard. And you were brave to stand up when it was clear no one else would".
    I would not say when I want to mean:

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, I wasn't looking for affirmation of my actions, I was looking for affirmation of the example, the contribution.

    In using the rephrasing there, I was just providing a way of showing the poster that you heard them. I don't care if anyone agrees. It's just an acknowledgement of thoughts.
    I wouldn't rephrase the subject matter of the example used, unless that were the actual issue. I'd talk about sharing on this thread, or offer my own example (I couldn't think of any). The details of the workplace example are irrelevant, to me.

  7. #337
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, I wasn't looking for affirmation of my actions, I was looking for affirmation of the example, the contribution.
    i feel this too.

    it's less about back-me-up-on-this and more about acknowledge that i had a valuable something to contribute and that you want to hear it, even if you disagree with it.

    otherwise sometimes it becomes hard to see a reason to keep contributing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Wanna borrow my Ni? I knew that's where things were headed from the moment the thread was posted.
    or Si. all these Fe/Fi threads are clusterfucks. but i'm learning a lot, so...

    who says a clusterfuck always has to be bad? sometimes painful and chaotic and confusing. but also fun and revealing

  8. #338
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    PB, while I don't like being put on the spot by a Te perspective with a demand to prove it, I just don't buy the scared kitten Fi thing. If someone is truly trying to understand what Ti is, even from a biased perspective, I still think it wouldn't be that that difficult to explain it. I don't like debates because I have to think on my feet, but if someone sincerely asks me about a theory or idea and what I have to back up my thoughts on it, I usually can pull them out fairly quickly. I've been close friends to a lot of Fi users and I just don't see them interacting quite like this.

    I can acknowledge that it may be hard for you personally to do that, not as a representative of Fi, but as a representative of PeaceBaby. As such, then it helps me to know that expressly offering encouragement for you to continue doing so is useful to replenish your inner resources. This is the first time in the thread that you've told us what would make the conversation go more smoothly for you. I still have yet to see you actually acknowledge what any of us have said in a way that says you heard it and are considering it or that you have any questions about it. Maybe to you that feels kind of implied like we did towards validating your expression. If that's the case, it would be very helpful to know that. If it isn't, then I think you'd find this whole experience a lot less draining if you would stop and do so.

  9. #339
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    PB, because you asked me to be honest I was. You told me you could take it and what's more, disliked it if I held back. I didn't even say all of what I was thinking. I just let a little more out than I usually do.
    I can take it, your thoughts just felt vitriolic and I needed to withdraw for a sec. Because I sense you have a lot of negative feelings about me.

    If you want to set aside your preconceived notions of what I'm all about, we can do this and get somewhere. I can sense your frustration and even animosity, and that's a big barrier for us to overcome.

    And as soon as I did, you decided to leave the discussion and told me that others NFPs find it too wearing to explain Fi to me. (See, again you come out as both the victim and the hero). I don't see any suggestions for how I could reach you better, nor any acknowledgement of any part that you had in our communication, nor any description yet of what you see in your own landscape.
    I said you could try to reach out by using Active Listening. You told me that it was condescending to suggest it. I am saying - try it ON ME! Why don't you try it?

    I'm not using what I see in others to justify what I am feeling. I'm using it to verify and check what I'm feeling. It's like if you took a pair of pants to someone when you're putting together an outfit and saying, "Do these look navy or black to you?" Depending on what colour they think it is, it changes when it would be appropriate to bring out those pants.
    OK I'll accept that. But, it's not as innocuous as that though, is it really?

    I think part of my irritation here is that there is no sense of acknowledging that you have anything to learn, you give examples of where you did the right thing even though others were unkind and unreasonable in return and you ask no questions at all. What's more, you are prescribing solutions that were not asked for and then are offended when I don't choose to take them. I'm only going to let someone drive the car if I trust them. You told MacGuffin that all you could promise was that you'd go on the journey (and at that, you've quit), and couldn't make any promises about what you'd do if the car crashed (intentions vs outcome)! Since it's the only car I've got, I want to make sure that I have a driver behind the wheel that I trust implicitly before I had over control.
    First off, I haven't quit with Jen; that journey was offered to Jen right now because I can sense she's in the right space to have an open mind about it. But, that doesn't mean I don't want better understanding between us too. But there are a lot more blocks between you and I, and I have felt that for a long time now. It just takes a lot of my energy. I apologize if you interpreted "the journey" as a global thing.

    And it's true - I am not here to learn about Fi. I was here to try to help people understand Fi. If I was here to understand Fe I'd be asking about Fe. As I see it, I am trying to help by explaining something that seems an eternal puzzle. Perhaps it's pretty presumptuous to think I could do this when countless others have failed. But I'm still ready to give it a try!

    This again reinforces to me that it's not a good idea to just let it all hang out at once. It tends to make people feel badly and it doesn't ultimately make for a better outcome. If I say what I think bit by bit, at least I can better monitor when there has been a problem and go back and take care of it.
    Well no, it shouldn't reinforce that. But the truth is you only let a little bit of the truth out, you didn't let fly with the whole truth. You don't want to let me drive the car, you don't actually trust me, you don't even like me that much and you don't know me well at all, but I'm supposed to go along with your directions here and let you dictate the terms of our engagement. When you seem to be the person who wants to understand Fi.

    I tell you what - you really want to learn about Fi and see what I see? I won't make you jump through any hoops to get it. But you do have to set your bias and fears at the door. And be 100% honest. If you are not ready to be there, that's totally OK with me. Just don't blame me for that. And the offer is open for the future too.

    There, Fi truth, PeaceBaby truth if you prefer. Plain and out there.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #340
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Does she really have to say everything in words??

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