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  1. #321
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    fidelia -

    i'm glad! and thanks for saying so. it means a lot to me and is helpful for me to know what works for you too.

    i've been trying to change my language so that it's more neutral as well (note the typos from changing "you" to "they"... lol). sometimes, when i'm writing, i get flooded with emotion and then i read what i wrote and i realize that to me it feels passionate but it could seem overbearing for anyone who is on the receiving end. and sometimes i end up directing things at people when they're more global in nature. i mean to show how much i am genuinely interested, and i honestly get caught up in the artistic moment, and i end up shutting people out.

    so, if anyone's reading that in any of my posts and feels that way, i apologize. it's much more about self-expression than anything directed towards you and i am working on being more aware of that.

  2. #322
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Uggh... I can't possibly begin to wrap my head around this entire thread, there's too much going on, but I thought I'd pop in briefly and just say this resonates with me -

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think perhaps you are mistaking what I said for defense of Jennifer, when in fact, it isn't. Fe (for me at least) makes me very reticent to say what I feel (especially if it seems harsh) until I have examined and re-examined my own motives and also checked to make sure that I'm not alone in my perceptions.

    I realize that the majority is not always right and the minority is not always wrong. However, if someone spontaneously expresses what I've been feeling all along and have discounted to myself as being just my mood, poorer self peeking out, unkindness, lack of understanding etc, then it gives me some indicator that perhaps I wasn't off base in feeling that way. Even after I posted that, I ended up sending PMs to two different people to get their feelings about it and make sure that they weren't seeing something in myself that I had missed that would detract from the message.
    I really relate to this. I've always felt the need to be justified in what I'm feeling. I realize this probably is the antithesis of what Fi users experience/believe/value, but *I*/myself/who I am -- I really don't believe I AM necessarily justified in my feelings. I might be missing something or misunderstanding. So I don't really place value/emphasis on half of the feelings I'm feeling at a given moment (not saying this is how it is with other Fe users though).

    And, without sensing that at least some others might feel similarly, I might just sit in my feelings/thoughts and keep assessing them for a while, to see whether I'm overlooking something, am initially reacting badly and might change my mind later on, etc.

    Tied to this, as for myself, I really do not like showing my actual emotions in the moment, specifically *because* they are in the moment and I know very well that they might be fleeting. I'm not saying this is a bad thing or a good thing. It's just how I am - it is what it is. I tend to only show emotion and express feelings about a situation or person to another, after the feeling has been present for a while and I know it's really there, rooted deep, and isn't something that's gonna just go away in a matter of minutes or hours or a day.

    When Fe users say something, they show you the tip of the iceberg, assuming that you realize that there's a bunch more underneath that if you want to know more about you will ask to see. By acknowledging the tip that's been shown, you are acknowledging that there's been something that needs to change to melt the iceberg. I believe that it is important to show people that the iceberg is there, but also expect that they will use the information they have access to to steer around it or to address it in some way. If the person seems to ignore it, the message gets more urgent and the bluntness is stepped up. Iceberg ahead! You are about to crash!

    Fi users, on the other hand, value open expression. I'm wondering then if a Fe user says something, if Fi users tend then to assume that they are seeing everything that's there or else feel that Fe users are disengenuously hiding the rest of the iceberg and therefore causing their boat to capsize on purpose? When you seem blunt or "passionate", we assume that there is a whole lot more under the surface that we're not seeing. When you insist that it's just your passion and intensity of feeling, we still fish around for our navigational instruments. I don't know if that's true, and it certainly is an imperfect metaphor, but that's sort of the way it feels.
    I think it's an interesting analogy and it makes sense to me. And, for myself, I do tend to just show the tip of the iceberg and what you write resonates with me.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  3. #323
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    What Cascedeco says describes my experience as well. I think that ENFJs, (at least on topics that rile them up) find it easier to say it straight out. They may have speaker's remorse afterwards, but sometimes it just needs to be said. I've found that this is one of the primary differences between my mum and I personality wise. She is probably a little on the too outspoken side (although that is not her habitual way of being, just at certain moments), while I tend to wait too long to say my say.

    I hate acting while I am angry (lots of mess to clean up and I find it embarrassing) or when I am tempted to attack personally or communicate something more than the issue at hand (undignified and distracts from the real problem). However, sometimes I wait until I am feeling calm, let bad behaviour go by a few too many times and then when I get really frustrated with all the small incidents that I've overlooked, let loose. I'm learning to say it sooner, rather than waiting till I feel really resentful, and try to present it with some possible solutions.

  4. #324
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    Heh, yeah I stuff it inside till it explodes...

    I also view emotions as ephemeral, they won't last, and are merely moments in time to navigate. My true self is affected by them, but isn't really part of them. Sometimes, I'm not even sure what emotions are present till later, after they've gone.

  5. #325
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think perhaps you are mistaking what I said for defense of Jennifer, when in fact, it isn't. Fe (for me at least) makes me very reticent to say what I feel (especially if it seems harsh) until I have examined and re-examined my own motives and also checked to make sure that I'm not alone in my perceptions.
    OK, you replied as an affirmation. Other side of the same coin. I understand that. I can see that. If one Fe user sees things the way you do, then that's tacit permission for you to interpret or feel that way as well ... confirmation bias, as it were. (Which, in saying the word bias, is not to say bias = bad.)

    It's using what you see in others to justify your own perceptions and feelings. That does sound like Fe too.

    Are you for real? Translated, your statement reads, "I actively listen and the rest of you do not. I will lead you into the world of harmony filled communication if only you will allow me to show you, because I know what's right for you and for everyone else." In short, your comments seem either passive-aggressive or else or like you are making a lot of assumptions that I feel are inaccurate.
    I'm going to tell you openly that this does hurt my feelings, and I can't think of anything to say that will smooth this over, nor am I going to lose my temper here, but I am very saddened that this is your interpretation of me.

    See, yours (unlike my post) isn't a question. It's a statement.

    If I ride in that car with you, I'm still going to keep driving. What I want is someone next to me who can give me some directions in unfamiliar neighbourhoods or provide information that I lack so that I learn to successfully navigate myself.
    Exactly. You want to be the driver of these conversations all the time. Well, at least that's honest. With that attitude though, I guess you'll never go where you want to go, if you truly do want to understand the Fi perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Tied to this, as for myself, I really do not like showing my actual emotions in the moment, specifically *because* they are in the moment and I know very well that they might be fleeting.
    The difficulty is that I can sense you do have the emotions. They aren't really very hidden. At least for me. 95% of the world won't know they exist. But sensing the people dynamic is how an Fi dom is wired. It's what we "see". Whether you believe that or not; I can't prove it to you. I won't necessarily know why you have a feeling, but I will often sense it's there.

    That's why it feels kind of disingenuous for an Fe user to deny them.

    -----

    Honestly though, I am spent. I cannot prevail here. If I try to appeal to Fe by staying MOL neutral and inoffensive I fail, and when I use the language of Fi, Fe users can't seem to accept the face value of that unless it agrees with some majority consensus.

    I had a good run though. Almost 300 posts in before I inadvertently offended someone.

    For treading on the Fe footsies I do sincerely apologize. Just because the result made a couple of you angry, doesn't taint the sincere desire to have helped you understand.

    MacGuffin's post is true, after all. Fe outlasts Fi.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #326
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The difficulty is that I can sense you do have the emotions. They aren't really very hidden. At least for me. 95% of the world won't know they exist. But sensing the people dynamic is how an Fi dom is wired. It's what we "see". Whether you believe that or not; I can't prove it to you. I won't necessarily know why you have a feeling, but I will often sense it's there.
    Well, I do understand that. I even had an INTJ recently tell me that he knew something was up with me for 2 weeks before I actually talked about it. So, I'm not saying that I think I can hide it, or that people who know me well won't be able to sense that something is up, it's rather that I need that time to process within myself and to make sense of what I'm feeling and why I'm feeling it, and to reach a spot where I feel I am able and ready to talk about it.

    That's why it feels kind of disingenuous for an Fe user to deny them.
    I think if someone probed me, I might not be able to say what exactly I'm feeling because I'm not ready to yet, OR my feelings are totally vacillating back and forth and I *can't* really say what I'm feeling because I haven't decided yet or they haven't settled into one or the other; I'd probably just say that I am confused and not sure what I'm feeling. Or, yeah, maybe I would do what would seem like denying it... just saying, 'Eh, I dunno', or might try to change the subject.. who knows... but it's because I may still be in that fluctuating stage where I have conflicting things going on in my head and I don't feel solid enough to know what to say or to know whether I DO need to say something.

    Well anyway, thanks for your input PeaceBaby; I know you're done with the thread though.

    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
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  7. #327
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    And one last thought:

    What confuses me though is that even within the NFP variety of Fi users, there are only some people that I seem to have more problems understanding and being understood by. I can't account for what that factor is that makes me feel that way, because those people often get along very well with other NFPs that I find more ease of communication with.
    90% of Fi users will not take the time to try to explain all this. That's why.

    -----

    Thanks cascadeco for the hug. It was welcome.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #328
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Iceburgs and things we see and things we don't see ...

    I put up my workplace example. No one did any active listening with me, for example, saying, "PB, that was a travesty. When someone points out a workplace danger, it is important for that to be respected and heard. And you were brave to stand up when it was clear no one else would". If Fe is, as advertised, about working with the group, then I should be important too, since I am in this forum group. Why did I feel unheard then? Was anyone reaching out to understand me?
    NO, because there is nothing even the slightest mysterious about what you did or said about what you did. Why do you need someone to reach out to you about it? Yeah, if you have an unsafe workplace, you should do something about it, yes, it is good to speak up about an unsafe workplace ... is this not obvious?

    But you are not at all speaking of the facts of the matter -- you are speaking about getting affirmation for your actions. This is what you call active listening.

    If it were some complex, obscure thing that no one could fathom or if there were possibly two meanings or more, then I can see it, but especially when we are in writing, that you want someone to write back to you what you just wrote and then affirm you boggles my mind a bit.

    And it seems very much like what folks accuse the Fe people of -- wanting consensus of approval for your actions -- even if they have zero effect -- and that was, I think, the complaint about your example -- you went to all this trouble to speak up, and it got you fired and the situation didn't change. So your speaking up is not about making change. It's about speaking up. You value speaking up no matter what effect it might have.

    So this leads me to believe maybe it is very hard for you to speak up.

    It's not hard for me to speak up at all. It's hard for me to decide when and where and why, though. I won't do it unless I think it will be worth the self-disclosure, especially if I'm going against the grain. I also want to make sure I'm seeing everything I should be seeing, so I ask other people or I read other people to see if we're on the same wavelength or, as Fidelia said, is this some symptom of something else. And I'm thinking if you had spoken to other people, you might have had better advice on the subject. ... but this is again talking about the effect your speaking up had, not the fact that you spoke up to begin with. You want acknowledgement and recognition that you speak up.
    (I think)

    Why is that so important to you?

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    NO, because there is nothing even the slightest mysterious about what you did or said about what you did. Why do you need someone to reach out to you about it? Yeah, if you have an unsafe workplace, you should do something about it, yes, it is good to speak up about an unsafe workplace ... is this not obvious?
    Wait, I guess I misread PeaceBaby earlier, I thought she was saying people back in the workplace situation didn't do active listening. She meant us, the thread readers? Like Tiltyred, it just would not occur to me to say anything more than "yup, good example there". It was something that happened in the past, not a current event/problem to affirm someone's feelings about.

    I guess I really don't understand Fi.

  10. #330
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    PB, because you asked me to be honest I was. You told me you could take it and what's more, disliked it if I held back. I didn't even say all of what I was thinking. I just let a little more out than I usually do.

    And as soon as I did, you decided to leave the discussion and told me that others NFPs find it too wearing to explain Fi to me. (See, again you come out as both the victim and the hero). I don't see any suggestions for how I could reach you better, nor any acknowledgement of any part that you had in our communication, nor any description yet of what you see in your own landscape.

    I'm not using what I see in others to justify what I am feeling. I'm using it to verify and check what I'm feeling for flaws, or missed information. It's like if you took a pair of pants to someone when you're putting together an outfit and saying, "Do these look navy or black to you?" Depending on what colour they think it is, it changes when it would be appropriate to bring out those pants.

    I think part of my irritation here is that there is no sense of acknowledging that you have anything to learn, you give examples of where you did the right thing even though others were unkind and unreasonable in return and you ask no questions at all. What's more, you are prescribing solutions that were not asked for and then are offended when I don't choose to take them. I'm only going to let someone drive the car if I trust them. You told MacGuffin that all you could promise was that you'd go on the journey (and at that, you've quit), and couldn't make any promises about what you'd do if the car crashed (intentions vs outcome)! Since it's the only car I've got, I want to make sure that I have a driver behind the wheel that I trust implicitly before I had over control.

    This again reinforces to me that it's not a good idea to just let it all hang out at once. It tends to make people feel badly and it doesn't ultimately make for a better outcome. If I say what I think bit by bit, at least I can better monitor when there has been a problem and go back and take care of it.

    EDIT: I feel badly for hurting your feelings, but I was also aware that if I truly expressed my thoughts that would likely be the result. I didn't want to make you feel badly, but I also felt that if you see me phrasing things as I usually would as being disengenuous, maybe it was time to try something different.

    As far as smoothing things over, I think that Fe generally does it this way.
    1) Identify the place where things took a turn for the worse.
    2) Back up and re-evaluate either phrasing or WHAT was said. That's not to say that you aren't entitled to certain feelings, but sometimes forcing someone to accept something that they find offensive and then telling them they're wrong if they don't like it just won't go over well. Take back the plate of green eggs and ham and find out what/why they would prefer to eat something else instead. They might even try green eggs and ham if you offer it differently. You are discounting the delicious foods that they habitually eat and you are less familiar with or the fact that we feel like ham and eggs usually will food poison you if they are green.
    3) Address the objections offered as authentically as you can while still remaining true to yourself.
    4) Move on, taking the red flags given as an indication to take a different route where there are less landmines. Do not try to offer the same thing again in the same manner if it has already been rejected.

    As you can see, this is results oriented. It has very little to do with motivations. Talking about the motivations only makes the problem worse because it's heard as excusing yourself or evading the problem. At the same time, because motivations are of less concern to us (they are factored in, but not the determiner of how we will respond), we are also not attributing bad things to your character. We just want you to quit doing what you're doing that isn't working and is keeping us from having an open heart to what you are saying. If you are wearing stilletos and inadvertently stepping on my foot with them, I let you know. If you make it out that you didn't mean to hurt my foot, but continue stepping with your pointy shoes, I assume that you are either passive-aggressively doing it, that you are just that unaware and I need to say it more bluntly, or that there is some information that I am missing. It's kind of the same with this.

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