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  1. #21
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Although I have participated somewhat in these threads in the past, it is interesting to me to note that it's the aux's who get really involved in trying to understand the dynamic.

    I wonder why?
    I've noticed this too. Maybe because F doms have T as their least function? That was my theory anyway.




    I'm still working on answering the op. Damn my slow and elusive Ti!
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #22
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Maybe with Te it's that outcome, (not the process getting there or the reasoning behind the outcome) is what matters most. Don't know.

  3. #23
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Okay esoteric, I’ve read through the op a couple of times- and I really can’t figure out how to answer it myself. So I’ll take what you wrote and maybe say how I’m different. And hopefully that’ll be somewhat helpful. Also: I’m posting in fragments, because I’m incredibly slow and need to mull things over before writing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    OK, I’ll go first.
    [LIST=1][*]When Fi Went Awry: I was corresponding with a new friend that I liked very, very much. I made myself very open and vulnerable to this person... We'll call her 'Anita'. In other words, I exposed my Fi to Anita through self-disclosure. This is how Fi makes itself vulnerable... by letting itself be revealed. Anita and I subsequently had a falling out during which she told me not to write to her ever again. My Fi was very, very, very hurt. Probably more hurt than it’s been in years. I reflected for a couple of days, then responded with a much justified Te bitchslap. But afterwards, even after Anita wrote me again, I refused to read her emails. I kept them on my computer, but wouldn’t open them.
    For whatever reason, I don’t really understand the vulnerability here (if it’s a Fe thing, my e5 detachment, or none of the above ). I don’t really feel vulnerable with new friends- that’s something which only happens for me when I’ve known someone for a longer time. But one difference that is almost certainly related to the Fe/Fi difference is that I don’t react with a Te bitchslap.

    I’ve never had someone tell me not to call or write them ever again (or if I did, it was of so little incidence to me that I don’t remember) – but I react to hurtful falling outs very differently. Really, I suppose one might view an INFJ doorslam as a Ti bitchslap of sorts. Every falling out I’ve had incurs more Ti looping than I can handle, which makes me withdraw and feel reluctant to deal with the person. I kind of pride myself on not retaliating with over-emotional responses actually, because: the cleaner my conscience is (as far as perpetuating the hurt, for every person involved), the less looping I am invariably left to deal with on my own. As angry as I get, or as hurt as I may be, I always already realize that I only truly have access to my own point of view- and that anything said in the heat of the moment can’t be taken back. I mean I guess it’s about keeping the peace- but, like I said, it’s my priority to do so because Ti desperately craves it. I’m very careful not to say things I don’t mean, no matter how hurt I am.

    What goes wrong: I'm too reluctant to talk about it, perhaps feeling too much concern about what might hurt the other person's feelings (fear of superflous conflict, I suppose).

    [*]Why Did Fi Do That?: I’ve come to appreciate how powerful Fi’s emotions feel. Since I made myself so open with an offering of my innermost Fi, the pain was all the greater. I think I didn’t read Anita's emails because I didn’t want to get hurt again. My Fi couldn’t bear it. Also, the Te bitchslap was because I thought what Anita had done was wrong. Fi feels like a very strong internal moral compass. When Fi's hackles are raised, there are no shades of gray. Things are clearly either right or wrong. My Fi had judged Anita was Wrong (with a capital W). Then I proceeded to use my tertiary Te to right this wrong by sending Anita an email in which I told her in lurid detail exactly why I thought what she did was wrong. Te became a filter by which I poignantly and effectively expressed my Fi judgment.
    I’d probably read any emails or correspondence from the person- and respond with as calm and rational an answer as I can muster. But if being as reasonable as possible leads nowhere, or to just more of the same, then: I set to work on not letting that person’s reactions affect me (I chalk it up to irreconcilable points of view), allow myself some time to grieve the loss and then direct my affection elsewhere.

    Some people just seem like a dead end- not in and of themselves, because they get along with others okay, but- just because of conflicting values and coping mechanisms, and their seeming incompatibility with my own. Everyone does the best they can with what they know, and sometimes it just isn’t enough to get along with everyone else. So yeah- I very much see things almost entirely in different shade of grey; I see my own perception of right/wrong as merely one set of values. Don’t get me wrong- I can get judgmental, and consider someone extraordinarily selfish or thoughtless- but I have a hard time labeling it as ‘wrong’ per se. It’s all just different gradations, because I can’t rightly say I’m 100% selfless or unfailingly thoughtful myself.

    What goes wrong: When everything is 'relative', then I don't really feel offended until the straw that broke the camel's back falls into place- and that takes people off guard. I really don't know how else to explain that right now.
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 09-18-2010 at 10:53 PM. Reason: forgot to add 'what goes wrong'
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #24
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I see my own perception of right/wrong as merely one set of values.
    I hear what you are saying.

    For an Fi dom (if I may be so bold as to represent here) we see the shades of grey too and are generally accepting and accomodating - but - and this is the biggie - we have our own internal value set that's like a compass for our lives and sometimes to not hold true to that is to become lost to ourselves and consequently fail at a deep personal level.

    My example above - that's a reflection of my own value set coming into action. I could have chosen a number of different paths there. Could have quietly found another job. Could have put up and shut up. But I spoke up for what I felt was best for the safety of the people who worked there.

    To me, those are things that one must not fail at.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #25
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Isn't it possible Peacebaby to still speak up, but to go about it in a different way? For example, I notice that many of the Fi users on here when they have a problem choose the most public possible way to proclaim it, without checking first to see that they have all the information, or seeing if it could be resolved privately. If the big guns need to be brought in then, you can keep going up the ladder?

    I think the issue is that
    1) You need to figure out why your concern should matter to the other person if it's going to be addressed properly.
    2) You need to keep the other person from losing face, by not embarrassing them unnecessarily or addressing the problem publicly.
    3) Offer a solution that you think would work more as effectively.

    Just by taking these factors into account, you may be more likely to achieve the intended result, with better outcomes for everyone. You may have gotten to keep your job, the staff would have been safer, and the boss might even have thanked you for seeing an issue that could come back to bite them legally, inconvenience them, or you may have saved them a lot of trouble in figuring out what to do instead. Most people aren't out to do the wrong thing. They just are going to get their backs up if they feel that you as their employee are making them look bad publicly.

    (I'm not saying this about you specifically. It's just a common Fi issue I see coming up in staff meetings etc. If they had spun their issue a slightly different way, the results would have been much better for everyone involved. They weren't wrong to speak up, but they didn't end up getting heard because of the way they went about it). I'd like to understand this better.

  6. #26
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I would say it's true I don't press INFJ's IRL. I only know a handful mind you. But I just don't press because I know it won't go anywhere, they'll just retreat and then won't communicate. An Fe dom will go to battle and at least we'll get things sorted, eventually.
    This is interesting to me. It reminds me of a recent conversation I had with my INFP BFF about our mutual friend who is an INFJ male and my ex.

    He told her he wanted to talk with her about something, but he chickened out or got distracted and never followed through with actually having the conversation. She just let it go which floored me.

    I said to her, "Why don't you confront him. I'd call him up and ask him what the hell he was doing. I don't get why you don't force him to at least respond to why he'd do that." She said something like, "Well, it won't make any difference. He won't answer me, so I'm just going to let it go. But I'm through with talking about this subject with him. He missed his opportunity." <-- In other words, my INFP friend was upset at his behavior, but was far less likely than me to actively go out and seek the information she desired.

    Now don't get me wrong. I try to be very respectful of people's boundaries, but I'd have no qualms about calling my ex up and saying, "Hey, what the heck are you doing?" I'd do it with a laugh in my voice. And I'd be very attentive to signs that he's overwhelmed by my probing questions... but I do it nonetheless.

    It has been my experience that in general, this is a good and healthy dynamic between ENFPs and INFJs.

    I thought it interesting that you said you'd go to battle with an Fe dom (viz., ENFJ) but sort it out eventually. This is how it feels between me and my INFJ friends. Hmmm... don't know what that means, but I feel like it's a clue.

    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  7. #27
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't find that if people actually want to talk about things that I'm likely to avoid it. In the case of the INFJ common issues thread or similar instances, I might end up getting shorter and shorter with the person if I felt that we weren't even starting from the same point in understanding the situation and the other person wasn't interested in making sure of that before discussing solutions. At the extreme, I might end up walking away and just saying, "Forget it", but that would only happen after exhausting every attempt to try to communicate back and forth with no progress. At that point, I would be frustrated, but I also wouldn't want to continue on till there was irrevocable damage to the relationship, unless of course they were only an acquaintance. In that case, it would be because I felt it just wasn't worth any more of my emotional energy.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I lack that sense of urgency. I wouldn't pursue it either. Because I believe that all things reveal themselves over time, and I don't care if it takes years, as it sometimes has. I'm content to hang back and observe over long periods of time. I think sometimes behaviors have deeper roots than you can see from just one or two incidents, so I'm not prepared to speak on them until I've had a chance to try to figure out where they're coming from.

    These Fi/Fe wars are fascinating and mostly over my head, but adding in the thinking functions seems to help.

  9. #29
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Fidelia, this rings true to my experience. INFJs don't avoid, in general. I think, though, my INFP BFF assumed this INFJ would avoid.... Or perhaps she assumed that he just wouldn't respond well to her probing him with questions.

    I don't know exactly why this is so, but my intuition tells me that this is a misperception on the part of my INFP friend.... not really how my INFJ friend would react. But in a way, the reason doesn't really matter. Whatever the cause, information would not be exchanged.

    Maybe it has to do with Te and Ti. Once again, I'll point out the function hierarchies of NFs.

    • INFJ - Ni > Fe > Ti > Se
    • ENFJ - Fe > Ni > Se > Ti
    • ENFP - Ne > Fi > Te > Si
    • INFP - Fi > Ne > Si > Te

    Note that Thinking is the inferior function with INFPs. Thinking has to do with logistics... at least that's how it feels to me. Again, I'm still murky on the causal relationship, but perhaps because my INFP friend doesn't hardly ever tap into her inferior Te, she goes under the INFJ's Ti radar.

    Whereas an ENFP will force an issue with an INFJ. Te acts upon the world. And Ti run logical integrity checks on that same world. This dynamic may be what simultaneously draws INFJs/ENFPs together... and makes them occasional want to backhand each other. (Just kidding. No one get upset. )

    It seems that almost as important as what function is operating at any given time, is where in the person's hierarchy of functions a particular function falls.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  10. #30
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ An Fe aux tends to retreat to process. They have more difficulty thinking about emotions on the fly. That is why when I consider confrontation I hesitate. I know they will just close the circle around themselves closer and closer. And generally I like these people. I don't want them to pull further away so I give them space and wait for other opportunities where we could discuss issues.

    -----
    ----- response to fidelia follows:

    Thanks for your thoughts fidelia.

    You understand though that I shared only the bare bones of the situation? And it was almost 20 years ago?

    It seems to me you are making assumptions that suggest I lack a certain ... tact and diplomacy. I can assure you that I can be the paragon of virtue in negotiation, even if at that time I was much more naive and idealistic, and did have a harder time speaking up for myself.

    What would you have done in that situation? This is what I did:

    I reported that I fell. I was unhurt so there was no concern there. I made light of it at first and made jokes and soft suggestions we should have harnesses or ladders. Nothing changed from these casual comments. I then had a private meeting with the Asst Manager and Manager. They said they would look into it, but then later told me there was nothing to be done to change the situation. Then I started to talk to the other people in the store, to see if they shared my concern. I needed to get a read on whether I was over-reacting in feeling that climbing on the shelves was unsafe. They ALL wanted to see the same improvements, but no one had the drive to stand up for how they felt. They put their heads to the ground and said nothing. As I mentioned above, some started to avoid me.

    I decided to directly yet diplomatically represent all of our concerns, and I did. I went public and made no pretense of trying to hide my desire to see change happen at that point.

    And for that, I was asked to leave. So I did.

    Fi is concerned with truth. The truth is, in this situation, only money mattered - the company did not care about the individual well-being of the employees (which is also against the law I might add).

    After I was let go (as it was a surprise to me that I was asked to leave), I wrote a letter to the corporate ownership of the store, outlining the situation, and change did take place after that to make things safer for remaining staff.

    This was (is) a store that marketed itself on ethical products, about caring for people and the environment. In a manner most hypocritical, that ideology fell flat when it came to the bottom line.

    I'm not sure if the same result could have been achieved in any other way.
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 09-19-2010 at 10:44 AM. Reason: used the word concern three times in a row, so I fixed dat
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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