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  1. #281
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    I've been gone from this thread for two days... and good grief... I'm gonna have to spend an hour reading to get caught up. Then more time composing my responses. I'm sort of in awe of the people that can be so attentive to the conversations and who never seem to take hiatuses.

    This begs the question as to how our more voluminous posters on this forum otherwise occupy their time.

    Do none of you people have jobs?
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  2. #282
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    General question here- fidelia, peacebaby, all of your participators- are you mainly talking about NFPs or all of the FPs? It seems like 90% of these discussions are about NFPs in particular vs NFJs; not just Fe vs Fi.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  3. #283
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm only focussing in on NFPs because I have very little real life experience with SFPs and NFPs are mostly who have joined the discussion. I'd welcome hearing something from the SFP perspective though.

  4. #284
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Where did the discussion start? What are you guys answering in particular?
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  5. #285
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm afraid that involved about 29 pages of reading! You up for it?

  6. #286
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Maybe. I feel like I'm experiencing deja vu though, since I've answered these kinds of threads numerous times with no one really responding to what I say. And it feels like the same discussion over and over again; same conclusions and all.

    I'll check it out in a few hours after class then! Maybe it's different, eh?
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  7. #287
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I appreciate all you've said from the Fi perspective up above, PB. It has hit me in a way that most of the dialog has not, and I am still thinking about it.

    But in this particular area of the discussion, I think this is where Fe considers Fi to be naive... just like people who enter the field of politics thinking "All they have to do is tell the truth, and then everything will be fine." It doesn't work that way. Hate it or not, people are swayed by public persona ... even you. You only see what you see. This is why smear campaigns are so effective -- and they become even more effective if the person doing the smearing is believing they're just "telling the truth" and feel passion for their cause.
    I agree it's naive at times ... way earlier in thread with my work example, I know it was naive of me to think that just pointing out and standing up for what was so obviously right would mean everything would turn out right.

    But how simple it would be eh? If truth was what mattered most? Without the drama that (especially politicians etc) wended around that supposed truth? I mean the crystal pure truth, and I know believing that there even is such a thing is naive no doubt too.

    And if falsehoods are entertained or given more credibility than they deserve, it creates disruptions and fosters untruth. Rumors smear; and the tone of your comments left me feeling like it's the people who are being smeared who have to now expend the energy to deal with the mess that others have created, even if the people creating the mess a few hours later suddenly say, "Oh, well, it wasn't that big a deal after all." That's horrifically unfair and exhausting; I think responsibility comes in at both ends, not just one.
    Yes, please don't get the impression I think this is a one way street. All of us need to bear responsibility for our words and actions. I hear you - throwing out an emo-rant then saying sorry afterward sure can leave hard-feelings all 'round.

    We have all kinds of people in the world, and all of them with their particular tendencies, all of them within their various micro-cultures, and then all of them in various stages of maturity, growth, wellness and stability.

    It's so multi-layered and sophisticated. Attending to all that is mind-boggling.

    I've been at both ends of that stick, so I do appreciate your POV. It's not fair, not fair at all. It's a weight that sometimes you feel frustrated to have to carry.

    Active listening is effective and an important tool, but sometimes it seems like it can be taken advantage of or just enables people to not take responsibility for their own choices. It also can feel like coddling sometimes. It's confusing to know when to use it and when not to.
    Interesting the word coddling has come up a few times ... I guess I see AL as attending to emotions, or honoring them. I think when I get into Fe trouble, it sure does help me back it up and take things down a few notches. It's like the language of emotional neutrality. It doesn't assign any motive, it tries to understand the other POV, and it makes sure the listener is hearing accurately and the speaker's message is heard as they wish it to be heard.

    Has more possibility to create win-win then anything else I have tried anyway.

    No, it's like a forest fire... you let it burn TOO long, and it'll start more little fires all around the forest and the whole thing will eventually go up, even if the original fire subsides. "The tongue is a raging fire," isn't it? Things people say, even carelessly / just to "vent," can start fires that can burn down reputations and communities. The feelings linger for some people long after the event in question, while the people who spoke carelessly or even just "impassionated in the moment" might sleep soundly without realizing how they've really torn someone else up. I've got three kids, and one of them is really good at "telling his truth in the heat of the moment," then ten minutes later moving on... leaving the other two kids to deal with the crap he dumped on them, sometimes very unfairly, while often they coddle him too much at their own expense because they're trying to be fair and polite. Trying to find a balance in that mess is hard.
    The fire only spreads when there is fuel to feed it - remember that.

    Fire-fighters first focus on containment ... hey there's a great metaphor there.

    There are 4 ways to put out a fire:

    1.) Starvation - removal of the fuel
    2.) Smothering - exclusion of the oxygen
    3.) Cooling - reducing heat, with substances such as water
    4.) Inhibition of the combustion reaction - breaking the fuel, heat, oxygen chain reaction.

    Where would Fi users focus on putting out the emo-fire? Where would Fe users?

    Me, I would focus on 3 and 4 - I wouldn't try to smother it (#2), because I know emo-fires burn hotter when someone is trying to suppress them. I wouldn't try taking away the fuel (#1), but I would try to make sure no one is adding more fuel, more #4 I think. If the emo-fire just uses the fuel that started it in the first place, it is self-limiting. Only more fuel sends it surging forward.

    I think some Fi users feel like Fe users rely on 1 and 2 - in trying to remove #1 they say things like "Oh, there's nothing to be upset about, what are you carrying on about". The message from #2 would sound more like deflection, joke-y type comments that mock the original emo-rant. Those kind of comments seem directed to just shut the emo-ranter up, or reduce the credibility of the ranter. Ironically, I think that stuff ends up being the fuel added to the emo-fire.

    No wonder it keeps on a'burnin'!

    But I digress...

    I agree finding the balance is Hard. I know you feel engaging in these scenarios as a bystander is sometimes more like meddling in other people's affairs. But, imagine if I entered W's thread asap, reinterpreted his rant back to him, with words that let him know I heard him, but let others know he wasn't just ranting away without purpose. That could have been enough to stop it all, right there.

    See, the difficulty in suppressing is that other people in the community leave too. They feel constrained, they feel everything they say must be sanitized, that they have to "toe the line".

    I don't have the solution, but I do agree it's hard. It takes a great deal of time and energy to plow through those situations.

    There's still stuff that people have said here a year or two ago that was never resolved, never will be resolved, and still eats at me no matter how hard I've tried to lay it aside, and undermines my self-confidence; I just try to block it out and continue forward regardless, shutting out emotions and relying on what rationality I have to keep me on track.
    Ahh, see this is where you and I divide. I would be using those emotions to reestablish a harmony ... shoving them down is only a temporary bandaid, I've done it before myself many times, but sometimes you just need to pull that bandaid off and talk with the other person directly and in a forthright way. NOW - that being said, communication is a two-way street, and if the other person shuts you out, or won't listen, that's where you get left holding the bag and must work through the residue on your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Do none of you people have jobs?
    I had dental surgery last week, so your thread was good timing to help keep me distracted. Thank you EW!

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    General question here- fidelia, peacebaby, all of your participators- are you mainly talking about NFPs or all of the FPs? It seems like 90% of these discussions are about NFPs in particular vs NFJs; not just Fe vs Fi.
    I am only talking from the INFP POV. I have an ISFP best friend, and she is very different in these matters ... I can expand more on that later if you're interested BC.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #288
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm afraid that involved about 29 pages of reading! You up for it?
    If you set your control panel to 100 posts per page, it's only three pages!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #289
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Just a partial response right now...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But how simple it would be eh? If truth was what mattered most? Without the drama that (especially politicians etc) wended around that supposed truth? I mean the crystal pure truth, and I know believing that there even is such a thing is naive no doubt too.
    I think this is sort of what happens when people assume they have The Truth, as opposed to just "truth."

    Let me suggest that you have one facet of the truth -- i.e., there is definitely truth invested in the way Fi looks at things. But Fe does as well, it has a grasp of Collective Truth rather than Individual Truth. Communities function in defined ways, and certain behaviors are either cohesive or disruptive, and this is a relevant type of morality to human living, even if it seems less relevant to an Introverted-directed function.

    Let me drag this away from F for a second into T. I can identify with your comment here in terms of Ti -- I feel like I see the "underlying truth" and "structural truth" of something when I look at it, but I have to admit (as part of being truthful) that is only one sort of truth... even though it's my natural bent to somehow view it (originally) as the Real Truth or the More Important Truth or as more legitimate in some way. We each think in terms of our original individual truth by nature and judge other things as less truthful. I admit to have some suspicions about Te and even at times have had the feeling that it "brutalizes Truth" in the process of accomplishing goals. Sacrifices are made, and sometimes I do not like them, and sometimes I feel they even violate the truth the goals are supposed to implement.

    But is Te less truthful than Ti? It might seem so to me, because it's really some sort of negotiated arrangement between reality and conceptual truth -- truth taken from the amorphous abstract and made manifest. To me, it can seem like the Procrustean compromise -- making things fit into boxes that don't quite fit, merely in order to achieve goals... but the truth is that the goals are never achieved and wonderful things are never realized without that sort of compromise. Te is describing the limits of my conceptual model in manifest reality... and it is saying something "truthful" about the world as well in the process. Maybe it all comes back into a comparison between the Real and the Ideal.

    Take this analogy and fold it back into the Fi/Fe thing. Maybe Fi feels like it has a better handle on the Essential Model of morality/values, but realistically all of that can't be made manifest within a system of interacting parts and disparate moralities. Fe has to focus on the overall effect and how the parts work together (or not), just as Te focuses on the same... and without that, nothing happens.

    In fact, since I'm currently in "programmer mode" writing use cases right now, I'm driven to see that, between Introverted and Extroverted functions, we are really describing different truths that are separated by scope. Individual Truth and Collective Truth definitely do affect each other, like a huge circle; but rules within one system aren't necessarily going to dominate within the other scope, similar to how some systems are not scaleable.

    <here goes lots of wonderful stuff by PeaceBaby in the middle that I am still digesting, thank you!>

    NOW - that being said, communication is a two-way street, and if the other person shuts you out, or won't listen, that's where you get left holding the bag and must work through the residue on your own.
    That. Either they don't talk, or it seems any sort of shared assessment is impossible, or they just don't even "get it." I have found that many of my F friends believe that if you just continue to talk to someone, you can eventually make some sort of connection or make up in some way. I have not had that experience; I don't know whether my perspective is Fe or simply T, but from childhood I've just had some really formative relationships where people simply were not reasonable although I bent over backwards, so at this point I'm used to seeing where things are going based on the type and degree of resistance expressed earlier in the conflict, and often I just see it as futile.

    There is little to do but just suck it up... and it just makes even harder when the other person doesn't even seem to be aware of the amount of damage they can do to me on a deep level by remarks that end up seeming to mean little to them.

    Getting back to Active Listening, we're all different, and we all bring different baggage to the table. It's not even necessary type-dependent, it's all very unique and individual. Some things that wound one person deeply don't even bother another person, even if they are similar individuals. It just has made me far more cautious about how I enter conflict and where, and what things I say and do not say -- because I don't know what old wounds I'm on the verge of tearing the bandages away from and sticking in a knife and twisting.

    Fi tends to take a more personal approach to this, Fe a more formalized approach, but I don't really like to criticize one approach over another; both have legitimate reasons and methods used in order to protect other individuals, and unfortunately those methods have both strengths and weaknesses. Fe sort of sets rules in place to avoid even going there in the first place, which can be a good thing, but maybe sometimes avoids getting into the nitty-gritty and confronting something that needs to be confronted; Fi comes from the other direction.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    If you set your control panel to 100 posts per page, it's only three pages!
    Lol -- that's what I do. Less pages, more skimming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Ironically, I have had many Fi users invalidate my feelings because they look at very superficial reasons as to why I am acting this way.
    Well, that pretty describes the reason I've been a bit emo in some of this thread. I feel like my positive goodwill and motivations are easily discredited or labeled as "superficial" because they're Fe-related in mentality. I had to learn this the hard way, dealing with an Fe spouse for so many years. I made many of the same claims and caused hearthache from my end in misjudging/downplaying human courtesy and established protocol (criticizing from a T perspective), but eventually I felt like I had been unfair and in some ways misjudged. It is kind of ironic for me to feel like the shoe is on the other foot now, but I guess it's a wonderful learning experience.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #290
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Thanks for your thoughts Jen.

    No, I don't have "The Truth". It would be insanely presumptuous to believe I do.

    I only have my truth. I try to live my truth within the multi-layered components of everyone else's truth, as individuals, within groups, within society. I don't have to invalidate your truth in the process to live mine. Quite the opposite, I honor your truth. And your right to see things from your perspective. Fe is true for you, and that's great.

    That doesn't make me naive however, to at least try to realize my truth, to give words to it, to make it "come to life".

    I do see the world as it is today, I see how it "works", I am not blind to the many realities, some joyous and some full of despair. My eyes are wide open.

    Do you think, even for a second, that I don't know "realistically all of that (Fi Ideals) can't be made manifest within a system of interacting parts and disparate moralities." But I can still aspire to a belief, an ideal, that it can.

    Help me understand what your point is. I guess I feel uncertain what you are trying to say to me. "Get with the real world?" Can I not, even here, say how I feel at the edges without someone feeling the need to pull me back to center, to get me back in line with the program?

    Let me think a little more about this, k?

    -----

    And as for Active Listening, rather than take my word for it, why not try it next time you see an emo-rant around here? Try it for yourself. Maybe it will help, maybe not.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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